Nancy Pelosi is a felon.

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Beaconator, Feb 7, 2020.

  1. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    "Drawing on the expertise of sixteen scholars who are at the forefront of rewriting the history of American economic development, Slavery's Capitalism identifies slavery as the primary force driving key innovations in entrepreneurship, finance, accounting, management, and political economy that are too often attributed to the so-called free market."
    Write4U likes this.
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    You're a fool if you believe that.

    And when did I say that slavery is preferable over paid labor? I said it is more profitable to the slave owners, who can claim to offer full employment (without pay).

    Only one of the definitions of "employ" involves paid wages. All the other definitions merely mean "using" like a tool, which is a favorite method of the rich con-man who employs duplicity for financial gain.
    Do I have to teach you English now in addition to US History?
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2020
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  5. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    why is it right wingers love to claim basic human psychology just doesn't apply to them?
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Unless they cheat and employ economic strategies like slave labor which does not create higher spending power and the competitive market is no longer about competition for cheaper goods, but for the most expensive wasteful luxuries imaginable that money can buy.

    Ever watched the Mecum car auction where a restored old car is sold for millions of dollars, because it once belonged to a movie star? › news › florida › os-et-bullitt-mustang-sells-mec...
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    According to the unemployment rate you are using and advocating here, the official US government unemployment rate,

    - the percentage of adults of working age who 1) are looking for a job and 2) have no job at the moment, -

    the slave plantation Confederacy had an unemployment rate of almost zero - since slaves were not looking for jobs.

    I have recommended you use a better measure, namely the employment rate (an unpaid slave would not count as "employed" now, any more than an unpaid housewife caring for children counts as "employed" now). But by that better measure the US economy is not doing very well these days - the employment rate in the US is generally lower than in the past, and in certain demographic groups (older white men, say) the difference is significant and indicative of trouble. You replied with some ignorant foolishness that amounted to admitting you had no idea what I was talking about, apparently because you were and are convinced - a priori, without evidence - that the US economy is doing very well under Republican governance, to the credit of Trump.

    It isn't.

    And Nancy Pelosi is an unusually competent but otherwise ordinary rightwing conservative politician such as the Democratic Party leadership features these days, sold on Reaganomics and buddies with Wall Street FIRE lobbyists but otherwise not a felon,
    or a leftist, or an extremist, or anything else of those kinds. That's all Republican big lie propaganda aimed at the ignorant and gullible.
  9. CptBork Valued Senior Member

    Correct, and that's why we have traditionally looked to your country for global leadership, as have most other first world democracies. Sadly instead of providing said leadership, your politicians seem hellbent on turning your country into another "jerkwater". Don't worry, we're already making adjustments, hopefully it doesn't lead to greater dependence on fascist shitholes like China instead. If it was up to me we'd already be testing the ICBM's for our own sovereign nuclear arsenal.

    As far as I understand, none of that data includes the countless billions being stashed overseas and not subject to any US taxes. The wealthiest Americans in practice actually pay taxes at a lower rate than the US middle class when you take this Mafia money into account. Or maybe Panama and Bermuda are the best places to establish microchip factories and manufacturing composite materials, 3D printers and cellphones; I've never personally been there so I can't say what American investors are doing with their money there but it must surely be important given the amounts involved. I have been to Monaco though, and it was clear to me that all the offshore money hidden there is actually going into agriculture and forestry on the vast tracts of unused land they still have.

    That has nothing to do with the fact that infrastructure has to be built and maintained in order to sustain a healthy economy. You can't say "we have zero infrastructure debt whatsoever" until the moment when the bridges are about to collapse and the highways crumble. From an economic standpoint, falling behind on critical infrastructure is another form of debt just like it would be if you borrowed the money and got it built.

    If this is truly the longest era of economic growth for the US, then do you give Obama his fair share of the due credit for getting it started? In any case my point is that it's far too early for you to be declaring much of anything, the data is still being analyzed and sorted.
  10. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    They pay taxes at a lower rate without any such estimations.

    It's not close. The US working middle class pays taxes at more than twice the rate of the very rich. Even the lower working middle class and working poor pay taxes at higher rates than the very rich.

    Vociferous is playing rhetorical games with the stats - mixing absolute amounts with rates, presenting limited categories of taxation as "taxes", etc. The question raised is the traditional one raised by all extended discussion with the US wingnut faction and every victim of their media feed: are they lying, or are they stupid?

    The money isn't "there". Only the temporary nominal ownership of it.
  11. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Well, Trump does love uneducated voters. They are his strongest supporters.
    Write4U likes this.
  12. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Obama's administration not only got it started, but brought it to its peak - it's been dropping since Trump's "administration" moved in (more that 700 high level empty administrative chairs are even now filled by hangovers from Obama doing what they can as temporary agency heads etc. They are likely responsible for whatever competent and beneficial governance is in play, but they can't prevent all the deterioration of fascist governance).
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    And the most dangerous.
  14. CptBork Valued Senior Member

    Maybe it costs millions of dollars to hurricane-proof a broom closet corporate headquarters.
  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Capital has to be there. Paper money is a promisory note to be drawn agains that capital. It's a convenient "means of exchange".

    The time that coin had actual value in silver or gold is long gone.
  16. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

    Since no one claimed anyone said slavery was "preferable" to paid labor, I can only assume this is a straw man. Equivocating about the meaning of the word "employ" and the term "unemployment rate" only further verifies what I did actually say, that you "equate" the two. And apparently without the minimal intellectual honesty to appreciate that the "unemployment rate" is explicitly about voluntary, paid employment. If I had simply said "employ", you might have some semblance of a point, but seeing as this is just a straw man, when I clearly said the "unemployment rate", I can only assume either abiding ignorance or intentional intellectual dishonesty.

    But nice little diversion from any argument, at all, against capitalism. Maybe next time you should try to quote the bits you actually intend on replying to. Oh wait, that would just immediately belie your straw men. Never mind.

    No, economics is not, generally, a zero sum game. Profit does not always mean an equivalent loss when it is a voluntary exchange for things that are equally valued. Those who profit most just tend to provide more of value to others. Tim Cook is wealthy because lots of people love Apple products, and willingly part with their money to get them. The US has flourished long after any slave labor, and there is obviously competition that lowers prices, otherwise new products would never become cheaper over time.

    Jealousy about how much some folks can spend on cars just proves my point.

    Where, pray tell, is any human psychology denied? Conservative can be jealous too, only they don't tend to use it to blame the success of others for their own lack thereof. Conservatives just tend to recognize jealousy as a human weakness, to be resisted, rather than an impulse to be indulged and justified.

    Then quit crapping on the country you rely on to keep democracy secure, and maybe try to pay your share. It's not like we've become even half as isolationist as most other western countries. We still have military abroad, give military aid to many countries, and drive the global economy. Unless or until Democrats get their way, we won't ever give up all global security interests in favor of coddling our own people with welfare and socialist experiments (that inevitably fail, like in many Scandinavian countries have found out).

    By all means, pay for your own security. Become an adult country on the world stage. And personally, start voting for people, like conservatives, who are interested in accomplishing that.

    Again, when they're already paying the bulk of the taxes, it seems like only jealousy to compare tax rates. And we've had tax cuts, that even benefit the lower and middle class relatively recently, with more such cuts proposed. The average American is doing better than they ever have. But I can empathize with your jealousy if that's not the case for you.

    And when infrastructure actually hurts business, there will be a private sector motive to do something about it. I never said a thing about "infrastructure debt".

    Obama oversaw an anemic recovery, due to lackluster leadership and over regulation. It would have never continued so long or so rapidly without the changes Trump made to policy. Democrats seem intent on a managed decline, which makes sense, because the only way everyone can ever be equal in outcome is for everyone to be equally poor. Doubting existing data because it just doesn't square with your ideology is just denial.
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Obama oversaw the greatest economic recovery in the history of the nation, but I know this is a fruitless discussion, because you don't have a clue of what you're talking about.
    Doris Kearns Goodwin, presidential historian and author of bestselling biographies:
    President Obama legacy.
    Compared to this extraordinary accomplishments in the face of complete obstruction by the Republicans, this current president Trump is sinking this ship, mark my words. When this ship hits the rocks it'll be like nothing this country has experienced ever. People won't be poor, people will die. It will be a calamity of historical proportions, perhaps equalling the fall of the Roma Empire.
    You want an example of the new capitalist rulers? Jared Kushner just was the beneficiary of a tax reduction singed by Daddy Trump on an industry in which he had a 5 million dollar invetsment. After this law passed his investment gained 20-30 million dollars and he just sold his stake in that organization.
    Jared Kushner Selling Stake in Firm That Pursued Federal Tax Break

    Daddy Trump signed that tax bill. You call that an honest business transaction? There is your capitalist system at work. Wake up man, but then perhaps you don't want to.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2020
  18. Kristoffer Giant Hyrax Valued Senior Member

    I wonder what Scandinavian country has failed at welfare?
    AFAIK we're way better at welfare than the US.
    Write4U likes this.
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    There you have it Vociferous, a testimonial.
    Thanks for posting Kristoffer,
    Of course, there is no reason why a wealthy modern technologically advanced country cannot distribute its wealth in a way that the rich remain rich (with certain limits) and the poor have an economic safety net.
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Did you read post #114 ? Conveniently slipped that one, huh?

    You're not honest with us and least honest with yourself. Too bad, you sound smart. Are you a crook?
  21. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

    "In terms of the average pace of GDP growth, this is the slowest expansion on record," says Lakshman Achuthan, co-founder of the Economic Cycle Research Institute.

    The U.S. economy has only grown 2% a year since it bottomed out in June 2009. That's far below the typical growth in rosy times of over 4% a year that the U.S. has experienced since World War II. It's even below the rather sluggish rebound during President George W. Bush's tenure of 2.7%.

    Until the past decade. The 2008-09 recession was so bad, the economy should have come roaring back with a booming recovery—even stronger than Reagan’s boom in the 1980s. But Mr. Obama carefully, studiously pursued the opposite of every pro-growth policy Reagan had followed. What he got was the worst recovery from a recession since the Great Depression.

    Before Mr. Obama, in the 11 previous recessions since the Depression, the economy recovered all jobs lost during the recession an average of 27 months after the recession began. In Mr. Obama’s recovery, dating from the summer of 2009, the recession’s job losses were not recovered until after 76 months—more than six years.

    Sorry, This Is Still The Worst Economic Recovery Ever

    As early as 1992, Sweden concluded that pension investments would be safer if they were at least partly in private hands, which is the same model that almost all U.S. states have followed with their public employee pension funds, like Colorado’s PERA. Britain’s experience has been similar, with workers realizing better returns from a substantially privatized pension system than Americans get from their payroll taxes.
    Sweden does not have a minimum wage. Most salaries are negotiated by unions. In Norway, average salaries exceed those of many other European states, but it, too, has no minimum wage; again, most salaries are negotiated by unions. Finland, same story – but with a twist. It recently conducted a two-year experiment with an unconditional basic income, and said it had no plans to continue or expand it (an assessment is due later this year).

    Socialists and progressives also want to raise the U.S. corporate tax rate, from an effective 25.7 percent, incorporating state taxes, to 28 percent. The U.K. has lowered its corporate rate to 19 percent, and will go to 18 percent in 2020. Norway is at 24 percent, Sweden at 22 percent and Finland at 20 percent.

    Drawing on data from the World Bank, the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development and other reputable sources, the report shows that five nations — Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Norway and the Netherlands — protect property rights somewhat more aggressively than the United States, on average; exercise less control over private enterprise; permit greater concentration in the banking sector; and distribute a smaller share of their total income to workers.

    “Copy the Nordic model if you like, but understand that it entails a lot of capitalism and pro-business policies, a lot of taxation on middle class spending and wages, minimal reliance on corporate taxation and plenty of co-pays and deductibles in its healthcare system,” the report notes.
    In Sweden, for example, consumption, social security and payroll taxes total 27 percent of gross domestic product, as compared with 10.6 percent in the United States, according to the JPMorgan Chase report. The Nordic countries tried direct wealth taxes such as the one that figures prominently in the plans of Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.); all but Norway abandoned them because of widespread implementation problems.

    You may be ignorant of the US then, as Scandinavian countries have abandoned their most socialist policies and reverted to their previous capitalist policies. They can only afford what increased welfare they have due to the US shouldering the bulk of their security.

    Except if doing so means they abdicate their responsibility for funding their own security.

    Now be honest with yourself and search your own citation for anything to the effect of "longest period of economic growth in history". No one doubts that there was economic growth during slavery, but that wasn't what you were purportedly refuting.
    What, you never bothered to see if your own citation actually spoke to what you were trying to rebut? Guess not.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 28, 2020
  22. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Right. Democrats try to help minorities and often screw it up. Republicans skip the "trying to help them" part and just push policies to directly harm them.
  23. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

    I don't know about you, but I can't divorce effort/intent from result. And after decades of bad results, I'm more than a bit credulous that the intent is actually well-meaning.
    Which Republican policies directly harm US citizens? Democrat run cities have the highest income inequality, the most racial segregation, the worst minority neighborhood schools (and opposing school choice/vouchers), the most abortion clinics in minority neighborhoods (contributing to more black babies being aborted than born in the US...ensuring they remain a minority), some have the bulk of the US homeless population (including feces and syringes in the street), affirmative action and loan policies that set people up for failure, financial hurdles to the poor protecting themselves, etc..

    While Republicans believe what Booker T. Washington did. That minorities are just as capable as anyone else, and should be given the respect shown anyone else in allowing them to do so. The "trying to help them" is implicitly racist, at the very least, by presuming that they need our help.

    But go ahead, substantiate your claim. Don't be coy.

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