Muslims should broadcast Dutch anti-Islam film.

hmmm. i know there are fundamentalist Christians in U.S and there are also fundamentalists of other religions but i have never met a fundamentalist Christian in almost 30 years of living in U.S. They sure seem to get blamed for everything though.

Do you talk to God yourself.

 

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"i have never met a fundamentalist Christian in almost 30 years of living in U.S."

For the sake of this topic, and in hopes of adhering somewhat to it, I hope we can agree to consider USAmerican Christians who believe that a Mideast Armageddon is pending, and that the USA must fight on the side of modern Israel in it. Let's consider these as our "fundamentalists". There are millions of such believers, making up a considerable voting and volunteering block. They influence other USAmericans who do not share their fundamentalist religious beliefs, too. You can easily find a church in any sizeable US community where you can meet such believers, believing in what amounts to a new Crusade.

"They sure seem to get blamed for everything though."

I think they deserve some blame for abandoning reason sufficiently to be dangerously manipulated.

"Do you talk to God yourself."

No.

 

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There are also millions of Muslims, millions of Jews, millions of Hindus and millions of non-religious in U.S. Certainly the ones who may believe that "a Mideast Armageddon is pending, and that the USA must fight on the side of modern Israel in it." are in the minority and honestly i have never even heard of this except for conspiracy sites.

If you say so. I doubt that is true though.

 

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But of course, Iraq isn't a culture war. It's about oil, as you've said. Culture has nothing to do with it. Again, Americans are not going to try and massacre muslims over being called "pigs" and "apes". Nor do crowds take to the streets even after airplanes strike skyscrapers. It isn't the same phenomenon at all.

Any nation, I think you'll find, would be equally happy to wreck lives in any number of nations to achieve its ends. The Americans merely happen to be more proficient at it than most. It's deplorable, but not in any special category of deplorableness; nor, moreover, does it touch on the original subject, which is the Fitna video. Let us leave this issue aside now and return to the subject.

Disagreed. The US invades different nations for oil, or profit, or votes, but you won't see a response on the order of the cartoon riots in America, or anywhere else in the Western world. If you have evidence otherwise, then please post it; but until then let us also leave this issue aside and return to the point.

 

John99: "Certainly the ones who may believe that "a Mideast Armageddon is pending, and that the USA must fight on the side of modern Israel in it." are in the minority and honestly i have never even heard of this except for conspiracy sites."

You can easily find a church in any sizeable US community where you can meet such believers. It's a popular notion.

John99: "If you say so. I doubt that is true though."

Don't take my word for it- look around. You're ignoring a massive and hugely influential segment of US opinion- the fabled One Nation Under God.



Sock Puppy: "Iraq isn't a culture war. It's about oil, as you've said. Culture has nothing to do with it.

Our difficulty securing control over the century's last full measure of Mideast oil is in large part due to a culture gap. There are other stupidities in play also, but cultural exceptionalism has been the fatal attraction, luring us into this perverted grab. Who could blame us? -Look how those Muzzlin countries dress an act! They WANT it!

SP: "It isn't the same phenomenon at all."

It's all bound up together. That's why we're so tragically still on-topic here. Propaganda is feeding this infantile world war, like any other. USAmericans are as enthusiastic about cheap propaganda as we are about any other cheap imports. If Fitna DVDs were patriotically-packaged and on sale at WalMart, they would be flying off the shelves.

"Americans are not going to try and massacre muslims over being called "pigs" and "apes"."

We are the world's most voracious oil-pigs, and we go completely ape whenever confronted with the truth of the matter. That's why we put up so much domestic and international pretense- We can't stand losing face, and we kill wholesale to avoid it.

"Nor do crowds take to the streets even after airplanes strike skyscrapers."

They did, they still do, and they will come out again after the next attacks. Although many of our streets don't have sidewalks or promenades, our "word on the street" courses through our national media, from cable news to car magnets, bumper stickers, flags, bluster, and elections. Our "street" is as volatile as it is virtual. John McCain can easily sweep the Presidency if he is provided a new and overdue terrorist crisis.

"Any nation, I think you'll find, would be equally happy to wreck lives in any number of nations to achieve its ends."

Not true. Most have learned that doesn't work so well anymore, as in darker ages. Advanced nations understand why wars such as the USA is waging in Iraq don't work out well for the aggressor any more.

"The Americans merely happen to be more proficient at it than most."

No, we're not proficient at empire. We suck at it, which may be our saving grace.

"nor, moreover, does it touch on the original subject, which is the Fitna video."

The Fitna video is designed to incite culture war. USAmericans have an equal propensity for political manipulations of religion, as do the most angered and turbulent Muslim nations of the world." The Fitna video will find its most receptive, responsive, and resounding US audience among Christian fundamentalists. Did you know- they don't like Islam?

"The US invades different nations for oil, or profit, or votes, but you won't see a response on the order of the cartoon riots in America, or anywhere else in the Western world."

Our government organizes and throws the greatest riots on earth, replete with armies and airstrikes. Our media provides the stirring graphics and riot-cheers. The American public has been sporadically titillated, gratified, and patriotically inspired by distant Shock and Awe. Hell, we lose interest when there's no major fireworks. But no need to riot about muzlin terrists in the USA- We're much too affluent to do our rioting and looting in our own country. We have military and corporate Professionals, and national interests abroad for that. We even profess to believe we can make a mess of other peoples' nations, while making friends with them. Maybe you've forgotten how we threw a little fitna in Southeast Asia because we were afraid/in hatred of Commies, killing over 3 million people- and badly messed up the lives of half a billion or so. What a riot! We're just getting warmed up in Iraq, but movies like Fitna do help get us going. A little radical-Muslim bad-review backlash wouldn't hurt the war effort, either.

"If you have evidence otherwise, then please post it"

Evidence of the USAmerican Fitna is posted on the backs of vehicles all over the USA: "God Bless America" "These Colors Don't Run" "Support Our Troops" "Fight Terror - Support Israel" "Terrorist Hunting License" etc. etc.

For evidence of the arc of this entire crusade, consider the entire Iraq War experience from 2003 until the present, and how long-noticeable cracks are opening very wide in Iraqi unity, the Coalition of the Willing, and general Mideast stability. Consider the correlation between major economic downturns and major wars.

Don't be a Left Behind. Join a nice Southern Baptist congregation (just kidding). Seriously, consider carefully in that context the quiet riot Candidate McCain is appealing to: We Can't Be Wrong and We Can't Lose- which every red-blooded and blooded USAmerican knows (and knows better than to say out loud) means (shhhhhhh) you know... escalation. There are many millions of quiet USAmericans who are already programmed to confidently support an even greater holocaust in the Mideast than we visited on Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, and religion is their handiest moral opiate. Jesus will pick up the peaces. Don't get me wrong- I've never believed that religion is the source of our trouble- it's just Trouble's best refuge.

 

I think you have lost touch with reality, my words here are an effort to help you. Do you think it is possible that you are a victim of media? Doesnt have to be mass media either but any media written by cranks and people out to make a buck. You post above amounts to nothing more than a simple diatribe based more on your choice of reading material than reality.

There are too many assumptions to go through in order and they are just too outrageous to comment on.

Is that what it is designed to do? I watched it, at least i watched the clip and dont know if that is the whole thing but honestly it didnt have any effect on me. Why? Everything in it is on the internet anyway and has been for years. Your doing the same thing only it is with a different group of people. I dont know what 'USAmerica' you live in but we must be living in two different countries. One of my best friends is form Pakistan and he isnt really religious but that doesnt he doesnt go to a Mosque or that his parents dont. And why would that matter to me? I dont know what is going on in the author of the movies country but we have issues with illegal immigration and i guess that it is close to what we see in that film or at least the feeling is. I cannot go into the details of why this is but it has to do with a psychological predisposition and maybe other things as well.

Americans are more sophisticated when it comes to diversity than you give them credit for and frankly you sound very full of yourself and i think that is a negative aspect of your personality. Perhaps you should step back and take a look around, its a big world out there you know.

Kill wholesale for losing face? Where does that even come from?

We are the worlds most voracious oil pigs? If the U.S would have closed its doors to immigrants in the 30s or 50s then the U.S would not use as much oil. People use oil, the U.S has a lot of people- from all over the world. The country did not breed them, they came here. What do your planes (allegedly) run on? Corn?

What do we do now? Do i go screaming at China, India (growing economy) or any place else that uses a lot of resources? Pick a country.

But finally, if you have fantasies thats ok, just dont post them as fact.

 

This example of Dutch behaviour reminds me of the "Boy with a Hive of Bees in a Jar" scenario.
He is amused because when he shakes the jar the bees get really mad.
But if he ever makes a slip and breaks that jar...........................
That boy is being very cruel and stupid.

The attitude of the Dutch towards muslims disappoints me, as I have always admired their laid back attitude to life.

Sometimes it goes too far.
Want to poison yourself with the rotgut whiskey version of cannabis?
Go to Amsterdam.

 

The US is very lightly populated compared with many countries, and uses far more oil per person than they do.

One reason is our refusal to build efficient transit systems. Another is our bizarre fetish for acceleration in cars - not handling, not use, not capability, not durability, acceleration - so we find in the US citizens who are proud of the fact that their purchased cars accelerate quickly, rather than being embarrassed by the childishness revealed in the tradeoffs and expenses involved.

This is the kind of foolishness that used to be the province of feckless royalty in feudal societies - possibly, one of the less expected side effects of US prosperity was the acquisition by the lower classes of the affectations and vanities and ludicrous obsessions of the upper classes of earlier times.

You appear to be claiming not to have any awareness of the growing influence of fundie evangelical Christianity in the US. That is hard to credit, since you cannot have come by your Creationism in many other ways than by personal involvement in some such sect.

For a specific example, an internet search on former Attorney General John Ashcroft, following up on the prayer breakfast leads and the beliefs of his fellow worshippers and the influence in Washington and so forth, should be enough.

edit in links and quotes, from important and nationally powerful Christian ministers with large followings and high-level political connections:

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/nae/nrb98.htm (From 1998 - note the strong ties to Israel, the presence of important US politicians and the issue of "free air time" for them, and especially the encouragement of Pastor John Hagee (recent courted endorser of John McCain) for Russian Jews to emigrate to Israel. )

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/20/opinion/main3955108.shtml Hillary's "Family" connection.

http://prorev.com/2008/03/why-is-media-paying-so-much-attention.html

" The United States must join Israel in a pre-emptive military strike against Iran to fulfill God's plan for both Israel and the West… a biblically prophesied end-time confrontation with Iran, which will lead to the Rapture, Tribulation, and Second Coming of Christ. " Pastor John Hagee, speaking in 2006.

"I cannot tell you how important it is that we understand the true nature of Islam, that we see it for what it really is. In fact, I will tell you this: I do not believe our country can truly fulfill its divine purpose until we understand our historical conflict with Islam. I know that this statement sounds extreme, but I do not shrink from its implications. The fact is that America was founded, in part, with the intention of seeing this false religion destroyed, and I believe September 11, 2001, was a generational call to arms that we can no longer ignore. " Reverend Rod Parsley, April 2005 (John McCain's chosen "spiritual guide" and campaign introducer in Ohio this year)

 

Update on fitna:

Wilders will remove the cartoon from the beginning and end of the movie to avoid legal hassles.

Dutch people apologise for the movie

 

I don't get it, why are people apologising for one man. They should apologise for electing him, not because he produced a film. For all we know, he might have produced it anyway. and then no one would have taken him seriously, unless he was a MP, oh wait. He was.
nutjob.

 

Thats not all. Its a CONSPIRACY!!!!

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According to Christopher Dickey in Newsweek:

Apparently they are all trying to foment a crusade.

 

Apparently Wilders is also a Zionist

http://www.israelenews.com/view.asp?ID=1611

 

The fact is when i first started posting here i played up certain things to debate people and maybe fire them up a little. This was a mistake because i really didnt take it seriously, i took a position of one side and just ran with it. Most of the time i was just having fun and let peoples imaginations run away. Was it provocative? yes. But it was not meant to generate animosity, to many these are sensitive subjects but to me they are just part of life and not that big of a deal. I really dont feel comfortable with making commitments and dont like being forced to either.

Now you are assuming i believe in a specific creationist theory which honestly is not the case at all. I believe in many possibilities but never once stated any as personal knowledge or irrefutable fact. Nor do i follow what any group does as far as political position and certainly dont wait for that group to tell me what to think. But i cant tell other people what to do either.

The truth is places to worship are all around me, all different kinds and i have never gone into them except for weddings and a few funerals. My parents didnt either and they still dont. I dont say my prayers at night either and the truth is i wouldnt even know how to, but like i said this does not mean that other people shouldnt and why should i care about what other people do?

Creationist? I have never read the Bible or any other religious book and the evolution debates i take part in are not motivated by the typical Creationist perspective. It is a fact that i learned more about religion from reading the posts here than i ever did on my own or out of some personal desire. I suppose my views on evolution have fueled this impression but it is really for purposes of debate and mostly to learn and have fun. It does get me a little angry when evolution is forced on me so i find ways to refute it. Big deal.

If you claim to know anything about me then your impression is most likely wrong. On the other hand you can just come out and ask. I dont mind people asking me personal questions about my beliefs becuase i really dont have any that can be considered entirely mainstream.

 

No - it isn't the same motivation at all. Oil is about economy and profit, not cultural suppression.

This is not addressing the issue. This is economics, not domestic sociality.

No. The predicted backlash did not materialize. Instead, anti-semitic crimes rose.

Absurd. All the nations of the world have learned to be peaceable, except the US. When did they learn this lesson? Yesterday?

I find it to be more a question of practice than belief. I have no objection to belief, or of practice moreover, so long as it doesn't intrude on my own belief or practice. There is little doubt that it does so at many opportunities.

Again: you are confusing international policy with domestic social response.

I see. Are they lynching muslims in the street? Are all muslims terrorists? If they really mean "infidels", then why don't they say that? Is patriotism an insult by definition? If I, as an American resident, suddenly get "patriotic" (not sure how that would work as I'm not American), is that by definition an attack on muslims? Is "Death to America" the islamic "fitna"?

Exactly - economic, not social.

Geoff

 

And then when i was 14 i went to live with my granma because they had to take me out of the school i was in because i was getting picked on. With that i just decided that school wasnt for me and decided to learn on my own so much of my knowledge is not known by the general population, then again i grew up on the interntet so i just google what i didnt know.

 

You would be the very first non-fundie I have ever heard claim that "evolution" was "forced on them" - to note just one of many revealing turns of phrase.

The people of the US will not go to war for oil company profits. Another motivation must be arranged for them.

Paraphrase accurately, and your question becomes answerable.

 

Well @ sciforums it is and if i can find the answers then i will be famous. I think it is you who has been indoctrinated.

 

John99: "I think it is you who has been indoctrinated."

We're all indoctrinated and educated as we choose. You seem to have chosen very shallowly, like a lot of USAmericans who have bought into Operation Iraqi Liberation, Iraqis Enduring Freedom, the Global War on Terror, Wolfblitzerkrieg, or whatever it is they're dressing up this insanity as now.

GeoffP: "No - it isn't the same motivation at all. Oil is about economy and profit, not cultural suppression."

The PNAC agenda required cultural manipulation- propaganda efforts targeted at USAmerican cultural and religious phobias.

"This is not addressing the issue. This is economics, not domestic sociality."

It's intertwined. USAmerican rage will come out swinging blindly again after the next "Islamist" terrorist provocations. Everybody who wants this war cranked up a notch or ten, including Cheney's secret Energy Task Force, including the McCain Presidential Campaign, including McQaeda and imitators, all need a new Attack on America (and all the anger that will bring) and they need it soon. Chances are, they've already done enough to make it happen, with plausible deniability (among the ignorant) for provoking it. Iceaura said it best:

"No. The predicted backlash did not materialize. Instead, anti-semitic crimes rose".

And many more than 100,000 Iraqi Semites died. I don't know how many Afghani Muslims have died. Do you? Do you honestly think this is not radicalizing a new generation of terrorism? Do you honestly believe that the W Bush Administration mobilized against nations instead of terrorists by mistake? Do you think we're swatting flies with Hellfires by innocent accident?

"All the nations of the world have learned to be peaceable, except the US. When did they learn this lesson? Yesterday?"

In Europe, major powers learned it around 1945. In Southeast Asia, they were certain of it by 1974 (excluding the USA- we learned nothing, apparently). In Russia, they learned it in 1989. You need to catch up on the last century.

"you are confusing international policy with domestic social response."

International policy, and most especially belligerent and persistently-counterproductive foreign policy -campaigns like we're watching crash in Iraq, like the Soviets and then Americans in Afghanistan, like the Japanese then the French then the Americans in Vietnam- are every one entirely dependent on domestic response- passive and active, spontaneous and engineered..

Evidence of the USAmerican Fitna is posted on the backs of vehicles all over the USA: "God Bless America" "These Colors Don't Run" "Support Our Troops" "Fight Terror - Support Israel" "Terrorist Hunting License" etc. etc. These are USAmerican versions of Jihadist battle-cries.

" Are they lynching muslims in the street? Are all muslims terrorists? If they really mean "infidels", then why don't they say that? Is patriotism an insult by definition?"

We are killing random Muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan, by proxy in Greater Israel, and threatening the same in Iran. In the USA, our popular rage is deftly processed into active war by War Inc, or a massive collaboration of the corporate sector (including media) that took orbit around the neoconservative movement. USAmerican anger has been successfully channeled into foreign expeditions, and there is enough momentum and Constitutional dilution for even more reckless masters to take over behind the curtain soon.

"If I, as an American resident, suddenly get "patriotic" (not sure how that would work as I'm not American), is that by definition an attack on muslims? Is "Death to America" the islamic "fitna"?"

It is being channelled that way on both sides of this crusade. In Iran, "Mag bar Amrika" is chanted at every officially-sanctioned political rally. 9-11 presented the perfect opportunity for a subliminal anti-Islamic chant in the USA. That's why Fitna begins with scenes from 9-11.

Economics do underly many ruthless agendas. Consider the correlation between major economic downturns and major wars.

"Exactly - economic, not social."

It's all intertwined. We are suffering under leadership that is not honest with the US public about our geoeconomic situation. We've launched a failed resource war, hatched by an Administration that is secretive about their reckless foreign-policy response to the growing crisis. We're in a crescendo of panic in the USA that began with spooked corporate interests making policy, initiating a destructive feedback-loop with intense economic, cultural, religious, sociological, geopolitical, and historic implications.

 

Far more oil per person than who does? Do you mean developed nations? if so then prove it.

The second part about acceleration is absurd. Hypewaders is an energy 'PIG' with his airplane flying, is that what you mean?

 

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