This thread is about movement, taken out of its normal context of "things moving," and described instead as the basic substance of all. I begin with a response to Wes Morris, who said: Of course a river is moving no? It's also changing. The river of now is not the same river as now except in convenience of referring to a generality. I am not the me now that I am now except in the same. and asked: What's the different between change and movement? Please answer in your groovy new thread. ------------------------------------------------------------------ A river is moving, and it's not moving. Form shifts; pattern stays. (Not counting the fact that rivers' shapes change, too, but that's just a small flaw in the metaphor). And notice how just as the form requires the pattern (the water in motion requires the river shape), the pattern requires the form (the river shape is maintained by the water in motion). Now, to your question: Change and movement. Change emerges from movement once a point of reference is formed. I count "change-stasis" as one of the most basic "differelations" of the cosmos, along with "same-different" and "this-that," because all three of these are kind of circular in their dependency. (For the uninitiated, "differelation" is a term that I like to use instead of either relation or difference, because I suggest that relation = difference). Movement (if you accept that it is different from change) partakes in no such pairing, for movement is the "hyphen" that comprises the differelations. As I have alluded to elsewhere here, everything in the universe can be defined in terms of these differelations relating to each other. Getting back to the general idea, I may have described somewhere earlier this general metaphor - if you can imagine it - of a river tied into a knot. This metaphor helps to illustrate how movement can be thought of as substance, structure, and process, all at the same time. The knot's structure (the structure of difference-relation comprising all things) depends upon the substance undergoing process (moving). The knot's process depends upon the substance having valleys (structure) through which to flow. The existence of the knot's substance (movement) depends upon the process of flow. Just a model. However, I think a picture of this model could be created, once the differelations are all mapped out. I call this the Ontic Code.