Most pivotal battle of WWII?

Discussion in 'History' started by Undecided, Jun 6, 2004.

  1. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Oh, well, geez, we wouldn't want to do anything that was hard, would we? Let's just let the criminals take over in New York City 'cause it's just too hard to fight it?

    Baron Max
     
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  3. terryoh Registered Senior Member

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    Again proving my point.

    I guess according to you, Americans and British were criminals, because they also ran guerrilla campaigns. Google "Office of Strategic Services" for the US and "Special Operations Executive" for the British during WW2. In fact, the OSS helped train Communist guerrillas in China (Red Army) and Vietnam (Viet Minh). OMG! NO WAY!

    Guerrilla warfare was used during the American Civil War.

    The US (under Reagan) even funded guerrilla contras against the Sandinista government in Nicaragua.

    Why do you hate America so much?

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    Guerilla warfare helped Jewish forces/terrorists (or "criminals" by your definition) successfully fight for independence from the British to create the Israeli state. Google "Lehi" and "Irgun".
     
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  5. ashpwner Registered Senior Member

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    tht guy al i was saying is it is fuck hared to defeat that kinda tactic and moving back to the point if britian had been invaded u rekon that they would have fought on in that way?
     
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  7. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    There was provision made for what were called "stay behind groups". Weapons caches, special training in insurgency and demolition, etc. in case Seelowe ever actually happened.
     
  8. ashpwner Registered Senior Member

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    aka dad's army the somthink army dam it i forgot the name thts it the home guard.
     
  9. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    Different thing altogether. Home Guard/ LDV/ Dad's Army were people too young, too old or too unfit to join the regulars. The stay behind groups were all volunteers of military age, no uniform, no parades. Trained as guerrillas for the one event.
     
  10. ashpwner Registered Senior Member

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    wow those brits were stuborn makes me proud

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    to be english

    if britian had fell poentrialy the end to world as we know it

    if american hadent had come we wouldent have won the way but we would not have lost it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 27, 2007
  11. desi Valued Senior Member

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    I think it was Pearl Harbor. If that hadn't happened Germany might have had a fighting chance. After that they were doomed.
     
  12. Odin'Izm Procrastinator Registered Senior Member

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    Kursk was the turning point, where the red army got rolling, stalingrad was just a
    needle in the foot of the blitzkreig.
     
  13. Odin'Izm Procrastinator Registered Senior Member

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    Germany would have been screwed either way. If the US hadn't entered after pearl harbour however, the outcome with Japan would have been unknown.
     
  14. oreodont I am God Registered Senior Member

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    It's revealing to read the first page of a thread and then the sinuous route the discussion flows after that. It's akin to picking 'the most decisive battle'..so much depends on other variables and 'what ifs'.

    I'd weigh in on Stalingrad. It may or may not be the battle that broke the German military machine physically but it did so morale wise. Back in the early 1970's I was a student overseas in Germany and spoke with a couple German WW2 vets who were on the Eastern Front. The loss at Stalingrad was a pysychological blow. The defeat did not mean that there would not be total German victory against the allies (that as in doubt already) but it did mean there could actually be a German defeat. German soldiers and the nation suddenly came face to face with the potential of the unspeakable...loss to the Soviets and all it could entail for one's own family.

    Dunkirk, the Battle of Britain, etc. are difficult to measure because the consequences of other alternatives never playing out. Although he Battle of Britain was 'mostly'a victory for the allies it's unclear what a loss would have meant. Despite the propaganda at the time, it's very questionable if the Germans could have mounted any serious invasion of the UK. Germany just didn't have the naval capability and not a fraction of the power that the allies had in 1944 in Normandy. Some historians see Operation Sea Lion as a non-starter and would have been a disaster for the Germans.

    I'll pick Stalingrad. In the Pacific War I don't pick any battle (not even Midway, Coral Sea etc.) because the Americans had so much infrastructure and techological superiority that they could have regrouped and regrouped as necessary. Perhaps the most disastrous defeat for the Japanese in WW2 was their limited victory, Pearl Harbor...it sealed Japan's fate.
     
  15. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

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    Good Post(I agree with the Pacific war - it was won with the oil embargo), Welcome to the Forum.
     
  16. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Huh? Right up to the end, the Japanese navy was still sailing their ships, using oil fired boilers, and the factories were building more ships and airplanes, using oil for fuel and generating electricity.

    What are you talking about? ...oil embargo?? Please explain.

    Baron Max
     
  17. oreodont I am God Registered Senior Member

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    I don't think the intent of the posting was that Japan was depraved of petroleum but that the freezing of Japanese assets was an economic act of aggression (a necesary one) by the USA against the Japanese Empire. Japanese assets were frozen and precluded import of petroleum products from (Dutch) Indonesia, etc.

    The die was cast. The USA was drawing a line in the sand after Japanese aggression in Munchuria, Indochina, etc. Dean Achenson convinced FDR that Japan could not be allowed to consolidate it's newly expanded Empire. Fortunately the Japanese got their back up and jingoistic militarists outshouted the more restrained calls for Japan to build it's infrastructure before standing up to the USA.

    Here is a stat that is quite astounding and shows just how out of touch Japan was with reality. In 1939 the Japanese were outprducing the USA in military production of ships, planes, etc. BUT...Japan only had 14% of the USA's industrial capacity. By 1941 the USA was out producing Japan over 5 to 1 and by the end of 1944 by 32 to 1.

    One of the unexplained but often speculated upon events is just what the heck the Japanese were thinking when they took on the USA. the top leadership of Japan both civilian and military were not around long after the war to explain the actual thinking of the Japanese leaders before the provocations against the USA began. Japan had no allies and were literally in a position to have fight the USA, the AnZacs, British and nationalist movements in China, Indochina, Malaysia, Burma etc. There was a lot of rhetoric(think of Iran today) often quoted but the Japanese seemed dumb enough to push forward.

    My wife's mother is Dutch indonesian. They were put into concentration camps after the Japanese occupation of Indonesia. Even my wife's mother, only 12 at the time, knew that the Americans would take back the Dutch colony eventually. The only question for them was whether or not they would survive the horrendous conditions before the Americans or British arived one day. The women in the family survived....the men (my wife's grandfather, etc.) were murdered. To this day my wife's mother has a picture of General Macarthur in her kitchen as a reminder to how much it meant to them (their lives) that the Americans had the resove that they did.
     
  18. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    the warsaw uprising
     
  19. Northern Africa. Rommel. Getting the Nazi's to shift that many resources and personnel to a hopeless situation really let the air out of their bags.
     
  20. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Huh? The main reason that Rommel lost in Africa was that Hitler did NOT supply him with resourses and personnel! Sure, the Brits sunk lots of supply ships from Italy to Africa, but Hitler left Rommel without the supplies he needed to win ...even though Rommel begged him for it.

    Many historians believe that had Hitler fully supplied Rommel's forces, he'd have taken all of the oil-rich Middle East ...which just might have won the war for Hitler.

    Baron Max
     
  21. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    i talked with me grandfather much of the axis powers milatary drives were to get the oil they needed to fuel their forces. romania and the caucus which both had large oil feilds in them hilter tried to optain
     
  22. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

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    Yup. I agree. Thus why I think El Alamein was the most important(though people do make a damn good case for Zhukov's battle in the east! I discount it, as it was previous to sept 39'

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    ).

    Regarding my Oil embargo comment - I mean the strategic decision forced Japan to give up on China(and Siberia - possible Germany/Japan two front war on Russia) AND force them to give up waging war OR pick a fight with a major power. Actually It forced them to attack both the dutch(thus Britian) and the U.S.

    They did have oil but had to transport it back to japan all over the south/east pacific. Thus the very exciting U.S submarine campaign. They were short on oil many times, sometimes keeping fleets in port rather than out influencing the increasing U.S naval superiority.
     
  23. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    23,053
    Ahh, yeah, okay .....now I understand your post much better! Thanks.

    But surely you also see that we had Hitler in exactly the same dire situation with all the bombing of his oil facilities and distribution means. So ...I'm not sure I'd call that "embargo", know what I mean?

    Baron Max
     

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