More Ukrainian Events

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Yazata, Apr 15, 2014.

  1. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    And you think that makes sense? Your post is a contradiction, not to mention factually incorrect. Obviously, the West has done much to support Ukraine. It has imposed economic sanctions. It has provided Ukraine with financial and eonomic aid. And most Western states have also said they will not intervene militarily in Ukraine as Ukraine is not a NATO member state.

    The simple fact that Russian troops are not occupying Kiev now says your assertions about the effectiveness of Western intervention are wrong.
     
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  3. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    At the recent NATO conference, more time was spent squabbling about the military budgets being a minimum of 2% of GDP than was spent on Ukraine. No new sanctions were accepted nor imposed.

    NATO has shown it's self to be a limp dick left over from a bygone era. Without purpose, it flounders about looking for military adventurism to justify it's pathetic existence.

    Maybe, the meetings are good for an occasional chat with old allies?
    Like a couple septuagenarian vets chatting about the war of their youths.
     
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  5. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    And you have proof of that claim? I don’t know how much time was spent discussing military budgets during the recent NATO conference. But it wouldn’t be surprising if your assertion about time spent was true given NATO states have been discussing Russia’s invasion of Ukraine for the better part of a year now. And you are wrong, new sanctions were imposed in the immediate aftermath of the NATO conference. NATO member states have been discussing, developing and implementing sanctions since the first Russian incursion into Ukraine 7 months ago.

    Well that is your opinion, but member NATO states seem to feel differently. Why don’t you ask Poland, Lithuania, Estonia or Ukraine for that matter how they feel about NATO. I don’t think they share your “limp dick” assessment. And if you believe Putin, he doesn’t either as he has used NATO as the reason for his aggression in Ukraine.

    I think your assessments are just not consistent with known facts. Each of the major NATO powers has very capable military organizations who perpetually exercise and practice war maneuvers with each other and have for decades fought together in places like Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Bosnia. That is far from the antiquated scenario you are painting.
     
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  7. orcot Valued Senior Member

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    On October first, Jens Stoltenberg will become the 13the secretary general of NATO.

    These are his opinions on Russia:
    I wish he didn't bring up the nuclear weapons though.
    I imagine NATO members will actually increase their spending (probably to 2%) and we will see more cooperation between Nations.
    Apart from that, Europe will probably diversify its energy policies and invest in green energy, giving it a second breath. They claim to make 20% of their energy green in 2020 (not really realistic but who knows).
    But what about the future of poor Ukraine? Will they find a ballance between Europe and Russia or will they drift off to the west?
     
  8. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    The likelihood of NATO member nations meeting agreed upon military spending seems exceptionally remote to me.

    From my perspective, NATO is'nt much more than a shill for UK and US economic colonialism and military adventurism.
    I am puzzled by the willingness of the other member nations to continue to go along with this continuation of Atlanticism.

    Surely, we've grown beyond the petty squabbles and wars of bygone generations?
     
  9. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Well, the fact is they did agree to spend at least 2% of GDP on defense. The fact that Russia and more specifically Putin has repeatedly attacked, occupied and annexed portions of neighboring states clearly demonstrates you are wrong.
     
  10. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    Did the member nations really agree?
    Or was it just words flung headlessly to the winds.
    Is their continued underspending an indication of their true feelings?
     
  11. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Well it's a simple matter of fact, they did agree. Whither they follow through on their agreement remains to be seen. NATO members are democracies and have complicated fiscal processes.
     
  12. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    Maybe, we need a better understanding of the meaning of the word "agree"?
     
  13. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    No, I think the Webster's definition is fine.
     
  14. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    well, then
    When they "agreed" they lied.
    If you cannot trust your allies to honor their words, why keep them?
     
  15. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    No they didn't agree the lied. They agreed to spend 2% of GDP on defense.
     
  16. orcot Valued Senior Member

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    IF NATO is the EU + the US and Turkey then those 2% is equal to 35% the GDP of Russia wouldn't that be overkill?
     
  17. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    The combined GDP of NATO nations account for more than half of world GDP. It's a 34 trillion dollar economy versus a 2 trillion (and shrinking) dollar economy. Yeah, Mother Russia is already out gunned, just as the former Soviet Union once was. But Putin and his fellow Russians appear to have learned nothing from the past.
     
  18. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    Rather depends on which part of their past you focus on.
     
  19. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    I don't think so. Putin's aggression and nationalism is helping him to mask the economic problems created that aggression. The Bank of Russia (Russia's central bank) is forecasting a .4% economic growth for 2014 and as the sanctions persist, the economic pressures will spiral. Russian inflation is running at 7.5% and Putin's retaliatory sanctions will only exacerbate Russian inflation problems. Putin's land grabs will not solve his economic problems.

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/101903367#.
     
  20. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    The fighting in Eastern Ukraine continues - so much for the truce. I still wonder what was really on those "humanitarian aid trucks". Given the proximity to the invasion of uniformed Russian troops and the importance Putin placed on them, I think it safe to assume they were anything but humanitarian in nature.
     
  21. orcot Valued Senior Member

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  22. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    It looks like Canada might buy Russia's war ships from France. Meanwhile, Putin's press is busy telling Russians NATO cannot afford them and lacks the ability to use them.

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  23. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Part of why the rebels seem to be winning now in main cities of eastern Ukraine including Debaltseve, may be related to this:
    Now Kiev has only small combat ready air force. Courage, training, tactical advice, and heavy weapons (captured from Kiev forces* or supplied by Putin) are not so vulnerable to air power and seem to be stronger on the rebel side.

    * those of 8000 government troops at the Debaltseve garrison probably will soon fall into rebel hands.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 1, 2015

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