Moon, asteroids, and Mars are GO!

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by cygonaut, Jan 9, 2004.

  1. EI_Sparks Registered Senior Member

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    I listed them in very brief fashion early on in this thread Persol, but go read The High Frontier or any of the dozens of books on commercially exploiting space and the moon - they list the applications in far more detail than I can and support their arguments with economic, technological and geological analyses.

    Otherwise, trust me - there are sound economic benefits from going.
     
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  3. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    I disagree.
     
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  5. EI_Sparks Registered Senior Member

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    Well, that's your right - but if you don't actually sit down and read the facts, it's an uninformed opinion.
     
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  7. hypewaders Save Changes Moderator

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    There are at least 2 reasonable debates running here.

    1) Can we justify a new and vastly expensive space program at this time?

    2) Should it be manned?

    The two are related in this way: Unmanned missions get far more done for the money, and as technology advances, this efficiency will increase. Even if the ultimate goal is manned interplanetary adventure, in the near term more can be accomplished by letting bots build fixed and mobile human habitats from and in extraterrestrial environments. Even from a marketing standpoint, dramatic firsts only captivate public attention for a short time. Is that momentary boost worth trillion$?

    Very shortly after our proposed Captain America strikes a prideful pose with Old Glory on Mars, Americans will certainly turn their attention away. Worse, they'll recoil in horror if more acclimated, productive, unmanned, and (gasp) foreign vehicles pester our arriving hero like paparrazzi, or gesticulate and mimick in the background, like window-gawkers at CNN studios.

    This is just another Half-Baked Big Idea from the people who brought you Military Landings on the Planet of the Ungrateful Natives.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2004
  8. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    I have read up on the subject, and have not seen a reasonable argument for why humans are currently needed for a mission to mars or the moon.
     
  9. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    EI_Sparks:

    You might be correct that at some point it would be useful to build spacecraft on the moon, but we can't do it with anything like our current technology. Yes, there is metal and other resources on the moon, but it would require a vast industrial and technological infrastructure to convert metallic dust in the lunar soil into usable spacecraft. We all know that this sort of infrastructure can't be put in place until we have low-cost access to space.

    I would love to see the moon covered with huge factories that churn out spacecraft and helium 3, but it all goes back to my factory-on-a-mountain analogy; you can't put anything really useful on the moon without first having a good way to get there. That's why we need to spend our money on researching aeronautics and launch technology, so that some day going back to the moon really will make sense.
     
  10. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

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    Reasons for lunar base, and going back to the moon

    For one the political pundit that we have in office needs a great strategy to keep the people thinking about the moon, other than there were no WMD's in Irag.

    Two, the undertaking of such a mission would defenetly draw lots of money for campaining the rest of the year, for a slice of the lunar pie.

    Three, this distracts from the real problems this nation is facing, devaluation of the dollar, unemployment, erotion of roads,bridges, electrical grids, rail roads, state budgets, need I go on?.

    However if done properly not "a' Lo macho" alone and as a world effort, with co-operation with other technological advanced nations such as Russia, Germany, France, China, Japan, this could be an affordable venture and a way of uniting these superpowers for a common goal, for the betterment of mankind and the exploration of space.

    This way we could then use our resources together to continue building the space station and from there continue onto the moon, for exploration of best sites to build a lunar base, this lunar base then could be used to launch exploration to Mars & perhaps beyond.

    However one sole nation as The US or any other nation of the world to take such an enormous task would be extraordinardly expencive and limited to its own resources.

    Godless.
     
  11. Vortexx Skull & Bones Spokesman Registered Senior Member

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    I agree with Nasor that developing cheaper methods of space tranportation, will give a lot more bang for the bucks in the end. I am glad that nasa is currently awarding contracts to study the feasabillity of the lunavator tether concept.

    The technilogical spin-offs are at least equal to what can be expected from a manned mars mission, just think of the push the development of long nanotube thether will give to the industry
     
  12. Undecided Banned Banned

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    $1 TRILLION Is the estimated amount of money to do all this crap. Basically increasing the US debt load to that amount, so essentially the US would be $3 trillion in the hole. This is so obviously a "last breathes" of the empire. Almost every empire has done something so grand, and so expensive that it will remembered for it's greatness, and it's ultimate downfall of that empire. The US is crumbling, infrastructure is in bad shape, healthcare, education levels are not improving, by 2015 the US will have a population of around 330 million people, who is going to be able to pay for all of them? The US GDP is expected to increase to $14 trillion by that time, that is not much more then it is now. In lieu of the fact that the Chinese will be able to afford to do this cheaper then the US. If the US really wants to go then co-operate with other nations, so it's actually viable to do so. I did some cheapo math, if you were to take the amount of growth that is expected per annum in the US by 2015 the government coffers will only grow to $2.7 in revenue (based on 3.1 growth), already expenditures are at $2 trillion and going up. Add another 50 billion per annum to that expenditure to make it $1 trillion over 20 years. That money could go to cure diseases! This is a complete waste of money, and has the potential to destroy the US government's finances. Not to mention the inevitable cost overruns.

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  13. 15ofthe19 35 year old virgin Registered Senior Member

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    Who is expecting the U.S. GDP to be $14 T by 2015? What source?

    That's using an extremely low growth rate considering the U.S. GDP is what, roughly $11 T right now?

    If the U.S. GDP grows at 3.5% for the next 11 years it will be 16 T. Considering the 3rd Q grew at 8%, I wouldn't be so pessimistic about projected growth rates.
     
  14. buffys Registered Loser Registered Senior Member

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    1 trillion, is that over a year? 5, 10, 15, 20 years? Is that from the original manned mars exporation study done in the seventies (I think) or is that a recent one?

    It just occured to me this debate is at least 4 days premature, we'll have to see whats said on wednesday before we can really make any judgements aside from the basics like wether we're for or against the concept in principal. The economics and how or if the money is spread out over time will make a massive difference.
     
  15. Undecided Banned Banned

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    1 trillion, is that over a year? 5, 10, 15, 20 years?

    Supposedly 20 years, as I said in my economic impact report:

    $50 billion is a lot of Benjamin’s you know, and we all know that it will exceed the $50 billion per annum mark. I think Americans will have a hard time understanding, or contemplating that the US simply in the long run cannot afford this. If Americans want their $1.2 trillion tax cuts, then they should forget about this. The US is not getting out of deficit hole soon, and with this "moon" mission, it won't.
     
  16. buffys Registered Loser Registered Senior Member

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    Either the people will back it and it will happen (in otherwords the majority will agree to bear the costs) or they won't and bush will be kicked out for sinking the economy, we win both ways.
     
  17. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    Bush we hopefully be kicked out for other reasons...
     
  18. Undecided Banned Banned

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    Contrary to the impression I may have given about the space program, I support it 100%. I know that space is of deadly importance to man, we have grow of our dying earth. We have raped it for over 10,000 years, we need new sources of energy, and mineral deposits. But not at the expense of lives, and economic collapse. If there were a economic collapse because of a space program NASA would be as dead as the USSR is today. The US is a great nation with HUGE amounts of potential, but that potential should be spent on helping each other, and improving living conditions of their citizens. AIDS is not going away, could you fathom what $50 billion alone in R&D would do to find a cure? If someone thinks that that money is better spent on going to the moon to get some rocks, then curing AIDS. Do tell...
     
  19. buffys Registered Loser Registered Senior Member

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    unless bush gets caught drowning puppies or mugging old ladies I suspect we'll get 4 more years unless he manages to become supreme ruler for life, and we're already moving in that direction.

    Security at any cost!
     
  20. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

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    This guy is a nut case, anyone who thinks god told him to be president should be put in a loony bin, not a presidential office. What would happen if say Buffy claims god told her to run for Congress? she would be considered a nut case, or would she get the office?.

    Godless.
     
  21. buffys Registered Loser Registered Senior Member

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    Hey don't be so hard on him, I mean the son of sam was told to kill by his dog a he was perfectly norm ... oh wait, never mind.
     
  22. hypewaders Save Changes Moderator

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    Contrary to what those Democrats and Frenchy f@ kids may have said about shooting the moon, I support it 100%. All that cool space stuff is of deadly importance to mankind, we've jut gotta get off this rock before we've trashed it. We have raped it for over 10,000 years, now it's time to really kick ass, and if it kills the bitch so what- So long as nothing happens to me and my friends personally that sucks. We don't have to tell them that the New American Century begins on Mars. The SSTM will spew enough nuetrons to, well nuetralize the opposition, shall we say. 500 people ain't so bad, the price we pay you know. "Not Everyone Gets on The Ark- So what's it to ya?" ... I sill chuckle about that campaign (thought of it myself snort snort) What a fundraiser that was

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    Anyway, We can come back down from the War Planet to repopulate after flying once behind Mars followed by immediate TEI: all the bones will be dry soon as we get back for the first American Century Day. Then it's Home on the Range, Yippeee Kiy-iy-Aye!

    I already have dibs on New Zealand, so don't try to land there without messaging, or I'll hurt you. There's still some awesome subcontinents if you contribute now. Bush 2004! And 2104! (cue I'm Proud 2 B an American)
     
  23. buffys Registered Loser Registered Senior Member

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