Moon, asteroids, and Mars are GO!

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by cygonaut, Jan 9, 2004.

  1. buffys Registered Loser Registered Senior Member

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    ya, I figured the same thing but just because the space race ended before most people thought it did doesn't change the fact that there was one.
     
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  3. hypewaders Save Changes Moderator

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    Ready, set... GO! RUN America! Numma One!

    ... and the world looks on while Buzz Lightyear speeds off alone: "TO DEFICIT AND BEYOND!"
     
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  5. Undecided Banned Banned

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    YAH another horrendous waste of money and resources! You know what strikes me as sad, the Americans can go to the freakin' moon, but can't fix their healthcare system! Amazing... For Bush this is just good politics, patriotism galore.
     
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  7. skywalker 3 @ T M 3 Registered Senior Member

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    Wait! What are you looking for on moon?

    Permenant base? what for?

    Commerical? what kind of commerical exploitation?

    Cost? is it really worth spending billions when american people don't even have jobs? economy is going dow the drain.

    Just wondering if you can give little insight.
     
  8. Americano Registered Senior Member

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    Shut the hell up. u aren't american so dont talk about our matters. It is a good thing and yes patriotic but Y it bothers u? mind your bussiness and worry for ur own people in middleeast or wherever you from.
     
  9. Stokes Pennwalt Nuke them from orbit. Registered Senior Member

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    In this thread I am pleasantly surprised to find myself agreeing with EI_Sparks.

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  10. Undecided Banned Banned

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    Shut the hell up. u aren't american so dont talk about our matters. It is a good thing and yes patriotic but Y it bothers u? mind your bussiness and worry for ur own people in middleeast or wherever you from.

    Why do you prove the stereotype that Americans are ignorant? You do realize that I am affected by your economy, most countries are. That's what happens when you are the hegemon, secondly, you are on a public forum as I am. If you want to spew idiocy at least have the decency to spew it in the toilet not here. I think 43 million Americans who don't have healthcare would agree with me.

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  11. Stokes Pennwalt Nuke them from orbit. Registered Senior Member

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    You do realize that you're communicating with people halfway around the world via a multimillion dollar boondoggle that was basically money down the drain in the foolish pursuit of a way to maintain communications in the event of a nuclear war. Also that Kennedy made his pitch to put a man on the moon about a month after the Bay of Pigs invasion, and we sent the moon shot during one of the hottest years of the Vietnam war.

    The problem with exploration is that there's never a good time for it. People don't yearn for the frontier when their home life is happy and contented. Nobody's ever going to say "OK, we've fixed all the problems here on Earth, now let's head for the stars." I figure now is as good a time as any to announce it.

    Space exploration is incredibly important not only for the advancement of science but for the security and preservation of the species as a whole. That sounds a little melodramatic, I know, but let's face it. No amount of tofu-consumption and paper recycling will save the Earth from any amount of catastrophic incidents that could happen and we are almost entirely unprotected from. Think long term. Eventually the Earth will not be livable anymore. It could be in a few hundred years because of nuclear war. It could be thousands of years from a huge asteroid. It could be in billions of years due to the eventual burning out of the sun. But the fact is that eventually the Earth isn't going to be happening. If we just write off the space program, when an asteroid hits, its over. That's it. Game Over. I'm not down for that, and I know most people aren't. If you're so selfish that you can only think of what effects you now, then it is fortunate you are not in any position of power, because I for one care about what happens to us, even if I'm not around to see it.

    I am ideologically impure when it comes to space exploration. It just kicks too much ass to discount. Also, I'm

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    ing at the social democrats whining about the government spending too much money.
     
  12. cygonaut Registered Member

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    But I AM American (and I can spell entire words - at times).

    "YAH another horrendous waste of money and resources! You know what strikes me as sad, the Americans can go to the freakin' moon, but can't fix their healthcare system! Amazing... For Bush this is just good politics, patriotism galore." -- Undecided

    .. and I agree with Undecided's characterization of what's going on.
     
  13. Undecided Banned Banned

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    I support missions to the moon and to Mars, but not at the expense of people on Earth literally dying for it! Do you actually support a manned moon mission, when people in your own country dying? That is not very patriotic now is it? Or deficits that are already $500 billion and MORE! Under Clinton, or under a budget surplus, I would support a moon mission. Not at this moment in time, there is no need for it. It's just gives nostaglia seekers a good masterbation seccession, nothing else. What really could a man on the moon do that a robot can't? Anyways, let the Chinese do it.
     
  14. Stokes Pennwalt Nuke them from orbit. Registered Senior Member

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    1,503
    Don't be silly. We've always had social problems and we always will. Even when we solve one another will step up to takes it place, and it will be every bit as emotionally daunting and have the same "oh please think of the children" appeal. Pouring that money onto social problems will probably have no noticable effect on the situation, but spending that money on space exploration has an actual qualitative value and a significant return. So what's the price of your knowledge? When will he have spent enough on learning? I truly fear the day that we start thinking of science in those terms; when the day comes that we say space exploration is too expensive or too dangerous, it's not NASA that I'll cry for.

    For how long have the sciences suffered a funding problem at the hands on social programs? What happened to the superconducting supercollider? What was it that led to Mars 2000 being a loss? Time, at long last, has come to where the social benefits are going to have to sit down quietly and take this one in the shorts. Not because of any tit-for-tat scheme, but because it is the right thing to do.

    Having a man in the loop allows an immeasurable degree of mission flexibility. Robots are not universal. They are constructed for one or several very simplistic and often esoteric tasks, in which they excel. Toss a contingency into the mix and they fail miserably. A person can perceive problems and react to them in real time, not delayed seconds to minutes over a duplex microwave radio link. Our eyes can see things in three dimensions. Our hands are better than any torque wrench or electron beam welder. Robotic technology is not sufficiently advanced enough to replicate the adaptibility or problem solving of the human mind and body. Until they are, they will remain specialized ad hoc tools, albeit extremely useful ones in their respective niche.

    By all means, I implore them to join us.
     
  15. buffys Registered Loser Registered Senior Member

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    BINGO! I think that sums it up fairly well.

    More is spent by the US military than every other county combined ... all of them combined for gods sake! A space program doesn't necessarily take food out of peoples mouths, its all about where the people put their focus and decide whats worth spending on. I have a feeling that if China really is moving forward the people will soon feel that beating them to it is a must. Like all democratic countries ego plays a big part in what it's people believe is worthy of tax dollars.

    The US will attempt a permanent presence on the moon/mars, not for science, not for resources but to be first and to be represented there ... it's that simple. (like I said this is IF china's plans come to fruition)
     
  16. EI_Sparks Registered Senior Member

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    Undecided, cygonaut, you do realise that in terms of value for money, no other program in the history of the US government has ever scored so high as the space program?

    Besides which, the USA has basicly given three things to the heritage of the human race that are good:
    1) An experimental governmental system founded on the philosophical principles of the Enlightenment;
    2) The space program;
    3) Tex Mex cooking.

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  17. EI_Sparks Registered Senior Member

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    Undecided, I'm finishing seven years of PhD work in robotics, and I've worked with them on several projects before I started that.
    So you can take this as a professional, informed opinion:

    Lots.
     
  18. hypewaders Save Changes Moderator

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    Not enough to outweigh the wasted payload, acceleration limits, complex life support, physical and psychological frailty, and desire for a return trip.

    You must be a very unimaginative roboticist.

    Please give examples of important functions impossible with unmanned autonomous vehicles providing telepresence.
     
  19. Vortexx Skull & Bones Spokesman Registered Senior Member

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    I could be misstaken, but I think, that while the chinese program has just outgrown the stages of infancy, they will try to make the full push, because they have a trade surplus and are not participating in sending fancy robots to mars or CO2/OZON measuring satellites in earth orbit, but putting most of their nickels and dimes in the moonprogram and millitary satellites....

    The American government could get the money somewhere, but this would not be without complaints of many of its citizens, or maybe they would even have to use money originally for the millitary.

    - If the Americans answer the call for a space race than it might heavily backlash on trade deficit or politics and even millitary spendings, enforcing the strategic position of china here on earth.
    - If the americans do not answer the call for a space race, well the chinese would have the best claims for economical development of the moon
    - the american government at this moment has devote a lot of time, money and attention to many costly operations on the ground, like iraq etc and a rather costly ISS in the air that is underused.

    In this light NOW would be a much better time for the chinese than America with a blooming economy and both hands free, not busy with chasing terrorists.

    What is troublesome, that for the US to win the spacerace, many scientific research projects and ISS would have to be put in the fridge for a long time to free up all that money for the important contest. Maybe it would be better if europe china and america would make joint venture of the moon, to leave more money for other science and healtcare etc. in all them countries.

    Astronaut John Glenn holds the opinion that most space research can be done from the ISS that is already there, you don't need the moon for many of these projects. I think he is right. You would need the moon to do really large projects that you can't do on earth or ISS and/or to beat the chinese and any moonopoly plans that they might have, so let's hope the bush plans extend beyond sending some tourists up there for PR because that would be really throwing money down the drain.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2004
  20. EI_Sparks Registered Senior Member

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    I'll give you the most important one:

    Being there.

    All of us are too young to appreciate the sheer difference in mindset that came about purely because men went there.

    There are many technical things that came about because of the manned space programme because of the manned element - but the sheer fact of human presence in space was and is the prime motivation and justification.

    After all, the Earthrise photograph could have been taken ten years prior to when it was snapped out the window of apollo 8, but it wouldn't have had the same impact because it wouldn't have been taken by a human.
     
  21. Vortexx Skull & Bones Spokesman Registered Senior Member

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    the field of Self-replicating robots and nanotechnology need some further progress, so that we could send a tiny nanoseed to the moon or other planets, that would grow into an entire turnkey infrastrucure, waiting for humans to pay a visit.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2004
  22. hypewaders Save Changes Moderator

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    Sparks:

    Being There:

    (distant chest thumping)

    We've been there, done that for now. Most Americans haven't even bothered to learn what an adventure it really was. I suggest reading Man on The Moon by Andrew Chaikin. Those who don't read about such things can be better titillated with mechanized telepresence.
     
  23. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    So should we spend billions on federally funded hookers? After all, there is nothing like being there... many guys would agree that this is a larger impact.

    Why should we pay so a small number of people can go to space 'just because'.
     

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