MONOGAMY [A St Valentines gift]

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by WANDERER, Feb 12, 2004.

  1. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,879
    *Xev*

    Quote:Indifference? Or the fact that they're not indifferent to you even though they can be?

    Neither. I mean any weakness or vulnerability. Outcasts, rebels and artists? Well I know many artists, outcasts and rebels but the only few I find attractive are also alpha male.

    Quote: Why? I guess it might be repelling to men - although the opposite seems to be the case, the more she doesn't seem to care, the more he's interested - but why does it repel you?

    We are not on the same page. It is visciousness and pretense I find repelling and believe more repelling in a woman. I wasn't referring to indifference which is something else entirely. I don't care if a woman is indifferent. Indifference displayed in a woman will quickly create indifference in a strong man. It can be sexy but not inviting, and still only sexy if packaged correctly (she doesn't have to be unbearably beautiful but she must have 'something'). I mean an unattractive, hard and indifferent female does not have the power to make slaves of men; have them fall to their knees because they are desexualized by the men around them. Venus In Furs was a beauty right? And Cleopatra reknowned beauty of her day? Remember Margaret Thatcher and how she was despised? Do you think she would have been reviled if packaged like Lady Diana? Of course not, then she would have become legendary. In men indifference coupled with power will always fire a woman's imagination even if he's fat and balding! Indifference will only draw men if coupled with beauty.

    Quote: I envy people like that.

    Have you ever been really close to anyone like this? Women like this should refrain from reproducing.

    Quote: the sensation is completely alien to me. I very rarely "feel" people.

    Damn woman, how do you ever experience love? Do you find it personally repulsive to 'feel' someone? Or is it just that it hasn't happened yet?

    *Wanderer*


    Quote:Hell yea!!! I’m an ass-man all the way. That’s how women manipulate me, with their asses.

    (smiles) You sweet thing you!

    Quote:How many people do you know, men mostly that is, that drive a car as if it is an extension of their being, as if it represents who and what they are or how they would like you to perceive them as?

    Well I see this a lot but I don't associate with any like this because they are bores, but there are other ways for men to do this. I know quite a few (I have a journalist in mind) who will use their career, influence and connections to impress. They surround themselves with impressive people and one wonders what would happen to their personality and esteem if all that were stripped away. They use it as a sheild of confidence.

    Quote:What do we really mean by the word intimacy, if it is not that we seek out the right person with whom we feel comfortable enough and who can completely grasp our totality of being with little fear or anxiety?

    Well said Wanderer. I agree wholeheartedly

    Quote: When we say we are intimate we don’t only mean having sex but we also want to mean being genuine and vulnerable and reverting back to that child we have locked up inside of us. That’s why we can only be completely intimate with our intellectual equals and never with inferiors.

    Absolutely and it's a pity that it takes so long for many to figure this out.

    Quote:Sounds primal.

    Indeed it was.

    Quote: But maybe this was only possible with one that couldn’t ruin the instinctual abandonment with words and inner thoughts?

    Well I'll put it this way, the physical feeling was so strong that 'witty conversation' didn't have a place.


    Quote: It seems like intellectualism destroys instinct or degrades it.

    Intellectualism can heighten physical sensation but only as sophistcated foreplay during sexual union if it doesn't shut down then there is something wrong; it becomes a barrier.

    Quote: You can’t completely engross yourself in something if you are thinking about it all the time.

    When it comes to sex if you are thinking anything at all you simply haven't walked through the portal of blissful experience.

    Quote:...you place your entire mental health in their hands and you expose your heart to their whims. Loving someone means offering them power over your inner world.

    And a deep truth this is! Its the access and power we give others as they enter our inner sanctum, but it is an unavoidable risk. Or rather I should say the only way to avoid this risk is by never being open at all; being the one who loves the least (indifference).
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2004
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  3. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    Wanderer:
    Really? I thought it'd be funny to quote you on the subject of intimacy, especially with your newest inamorata watching:

    -Wanderer, 09-22-03, 01:30 PM

    I remember everything.
    Now what were you saying about intimacy?

    Incorrect. The knowledge of mortality is a drive, but it is not a cause of "everything". All life carries the seeds of its future death. Second law of thermodynamics in action.

    No, neither love nor sex has lost wonder or intensity. There are only those who do not feel intensely, and mock those who do but need their armor.

    There is none ready-made for you. I've experienced all three in spades, but only because I was disposed to.

    Incorrect again. I'm drawn to the powerful and aesthetically pleasing. If you wish to vulgarize that with whatever labels pop-culture slaps on it, have fun.

    How can you know what feeling is if you don't find yourself needing armor?

    Why not?
    Desire can never apprehend desire, so it seeks the things that reflect facets of desire. Yet they are unsatisfying.

    Lucysnow:
    How personal desire is.

    Oh.
    Okay, but why would you find women repelling? I can't say I've felt repelled by a woman ever - I'm not moved by them the way I am men.

    Yes, but you have to take into account that Thatcher was powerful - and powerful people are despised by the envious - and Diana wasn't. It's not that cut and dry.

    Speak for yourself though. It does affect many, perhaps most women, but there are those who don't find it stimulating.

    Yeah, my mother. (Grins)

    I'm not sure. I guess - if you're asking what sparks attraction, it's an aesthetics. But love for me is not physical nearly so much as supraphysical.

    Oh I've "felt" - if you mean sheer animal attraction - but I don't know, it seems somewhat shallow.
    Perhaps this is a matter of control - I could not let a man "sweep me off my feet". Power is my first love - boys are cute but they're second.

    You wouldn't find him so inspiring if you knew what he thought of your gender.

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    Last edited: Mar 1, 2004
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  5. WANDERER Banned Banned

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    Xev
    Funny how you resort to the extremes to make a point.
    Both the feminine and masculine exist within both sexes-Isn’t that what you were trying to say in your other thread?-so simply by being social you admit to a feminine predisposition.
    Maybe you’ve also read my ‘Feminization of man’ thread.
    Like I was saying death forces us to admit to a helplessness against it.
    This battle against attrition and loss forces an alliance of sorts between genders; genders that would not even exist if it were not for it.
    What you quote I stand by but I add that women would have nothing to do with men for the exact same reason. There would, in fact, be no need for neither.
    It is human frailty that creates the female disposition in order to make social interactions and unions possible and to create stronger wholes through cooperation.
    Intimacy is how two halves of a complete whole manage to interrelate and become one so that they combine forces against mortality.
    Now, what were you saying about intimacy?

    All life is a constant reaction against death and inertia.
    Sounds depressing but there it is.
    Life is defined by death and this is why life is constantly preoccupied with survival and procreation making both sex and intimacy the main focus of all our endeavors.

    I did not mock you.
    Have you not noticed my well worn shield yet?

    Then you are more fortunate than I.
    I have but partially experienced any of them.

    Alpha maleness or femaleness is relevant to a particular group with its own values and standards.
    For example in one society a pious man may be an alpha whereas in another society a rebel will be one.
    In one culture physical beauty and strength will be the factor that determines status whereas in another intelligence and mental power will be considered more important.

    I know all about armor. Did you not read my post thoroughly?
    Read it again.

    I wasn’t being critical only commenting on the general characteristic of life.

    Oh?!
    I’m critical of both genders for different reasons.
    Have you not yourself described the failings of men in your posts?
    I would say that I have grown to appreciate the feminine side, the Dionysian side.
     
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  7. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,879
    *Xev*

    Quote

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    kay, but why would you find women repelling? I can't say I've felt repelled by a woman ever - I'm not moved by them the way I am men.

    (smiles) Strong mother issues. You have no idea what it was like growing up with overpowering matriarchs...they would put Davis and Crawford to shame.

    Quote:Speak for yourself though. It does affect many, perhaps most women, but there are those who don't find it stimulating.

    Well of course there are those who do not find it stimulating; anything described are only impressions not rules. I don't agree that Diana had no power; she had an emotional power over the herd. Personally I disliked the woman because she was neurotic to a fault and then had the audacity of taking it out on all around her.

    Quote:Yeah, my mother. (Grins)

    LOL. Okay then we can talk!

    Quote:I'm not sure. I guess - if you're asking what sparks attraction, it's an aesthetics. But love for me is not physical nearly so much as supraphysical

    I agree with you but then you are 'feeling' someone. When I speak of 'feeling' someone I am not referring to physical touch but the ability to feel their 'essence'. Do you know what I mean? The love of my life and I didn't have much sexual contact, the physical contact itself was too intense, and I felt more connected to him than I have with anyone. It was almost psychic and definitely way beyond the physical which was not important to us at all. It was as if I had known him for a thousand years and there was a thousand years of feeling between us. With the love I mentioned in the previous post it was mostly physical, when I say I could 'feel' him from across the room I mean his magnetism could affect me from a distance, drawing me in and it was definitely a physical sensation but the 'feeling' was still beyond touch.

    Quote

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    h I've "felt" - if you mean sheer animal attraction - but I don't know, it seems somewhat shallow. Perhaps this is a matter of control - I could not let a man "sweep me off my feet". Power is my first love - boys are cute but they're second.

    It can be shallow but then the feeling isn't so very strong is it? You aren't open; I know what this is like. But when you aren't open then you cannot yield and one would have to do both to be 'swept off ones feet'. I must say I like the abandonment so I want to yield, but I have had to learn to temper this by keeping the gates to the fortress closed and keeping the interested in quarantine while I figure out what's going on. Its like what I described to Wanderer: Open the first gate, quarantine and wait. Then open the second and again quarantine and wait etc.

    Quote:You wouldn't find him so inspiring if you knew what he thought of your gender.

    LOL. Okay Walsingham what is it that he thinks women? Don't tell me I have a Sir Roberts on my hands? From what I can gather he likes a pretty buttocks!
     
  8. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,053
    Wanderer

    True. Experience makes us wary and ignorance makes us foolish.

    I know what you mean. I am like that as well and I find that I have to force myself to just step back and see the situation and the other person as a whole before I see them as being guilty. When I meet someone for the first time, they usually find me to be a snob because I'm not as open as I could be. I tend to sit quietly in the background and observe the person(s) until I feel that I can trust them enough to open up to them. This is something that happens while I'm not even aware that I'm actually doing it, but I've started to force myself to be a bit more open and receptive to others because I've started to realise that unless I open up to them, they wont open up to me. It's a two way street. On the flip side, some people are tools right from the get go and do not deserve any chance.

    Very true.

    It's an amazing feeling. And it can also be scary as hell because it can happen so instantly that you feel as though you've lost that minute amount of control that you may have had over your feelings. I ran like hell when it happened to me because I was so scared of letting anyone in and scared of letting myself feel for anyone again, and luckily for me, he realised and understood why I ran and he ran alongside me until I stopped and faced it all and faced what I really felt for him. I haven't run since.

    But sometimes you have to take care of yourself first and ensure your own happiness. I'm trying to find a way to say this so that it makes sense, so bear with me. You can't make anyone else happy unless you're truly happy yourself. Sure on the outside all may be fine, but those who care for you will see that you are sometimes unhappy, regardless of how much you try to hide it. Sometimes you have to let others feel disappointed to ensure your happiness or joy. Disappointment will always wane Wanderer, but unhappiness can and does grow if you aren't careful.

    True and it's terrifying to lose that sense of control over everything.

    You don't really find it. It just comes to you out of nowhere. In July last year I was at the bedside of a beloved uncle during his illness and his death. Now he and my aunt (his wife) used to argue every single day and I remember thinking in the past how they could argue and just discuss things so much. Every time I'd go there, they'd be argueing. It was the kind of thing where each tried to antagonise each other every single minute of the day. They always used to say that they never went to bed angry at each other and I was always so sceptical and just used to say 'mmm hmmm sure you do'. Deep down I used to wonder if they even loved each other. But during the time that he was ill, my aunt never left his bedside. He spent his final month in hospital fighting heart failure and we were all there everyday as well, but each day we'd have to drag my aunt out by force because she couldn't leave him alone at night. I watched as she became smaller and smaller with each passing day his condition worsened. As he became weaker and weaker, it was becoming obvious that he was not going to make it and we'd taken to taking turns sitting with him during the day. I watched as she fought with the doctor who had kept telling my uncle that he was going to die and not going home. She'd refused to give up and was so sure that he was going to pull through again this time (he'd had 13 heart attacks over the past 20 years and had somehow miraculously managed to pull through each time). On the day that was to be his last day, I was sitting with him as he dozed. It had gotten to the point where he couldn't even speak but could only whisper or point weakly. He woke up and pointed to the juice and faintly whispered that he wanted a drink. Because he was so weak, he couldn't drink through a straw anymore so had to be spoon fed his juice. I stood there and sobbed quietly as I spoon fed this man who I adored all my life. At that time my aunt came in and sat by his bedside and held his hand and kissed it. I asked if she wanted me to leave and she shook her head no. He turned his eyes and tried to focus on her as I still spoon fed him his juice and she started to tell him that she loved him and how he was her whole life. She sobbed as she told him that without him her life meant nothing and she told him about throughout their life together how he'd made her happier than she could ever have dreamed and how the true sign of their love were their children and the fact that they never once went to bed angry at each other and how they rarely ever spent a night away from each other. She then started to tell him that she would be alright and that he shouldn't worry about him. I didn't hear anything else, I ended up running from the room because I didn't want him to notice how much I was crying. I still cry about it even now just thinking about it. At that moment I realised that no matter how much they argued every day and how much they antagonised each other, they adored each other and were true soulmates. When I looked back into the room, I saw that he rubbing his fingers over hear head trying to comfort her. God that instant my heart broke, and I sobbed like a baby. The love they had for each other was so raw that it was a bond that could never be broken, regardless of death. I realised then that the love they had for each other was one that was not only one of soulmates, but one that had grown over the period of the 40 years that they'd been married and I think they'd even surpassed being soulmates. As he died a few hours later with all of us there holding him, she was there whispering in his ear how much he was her life. I only hope that my soulmate and I can grow like my aunt and uncle have, but I guess that we each grow together in our own different ways as we are all different individuals

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    .

    I shall shut up now because just thinking about that day in July makes me want to sob like a baby.
     
  9. Fenris Wolf Banned Banned

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    567
    Yes. As far as obstacles go, though, it has become a fairly large one, as you know.

    It's not so much a question of reinventing the self, Bells. It's more remaining true to it. I've known who I was for some time now, and unfortunately I've never been able to remain still for long. The desire for something new, something "else" has always been prevalent. I tend to think of myself as needing input. This obviously has consequences in personal life, and as time goes on those consequences become more immediate. It's easy to ignore them, until one day you wake up and find them staring you in the face.

    Heh - it's everyone else I tend to doubt, not myself.

    We all doubt ourselves to some extent, some more than others. It's never prevented me from doing anything, though, at least not for long.

    Good question. That person has never shown herself, so I don't really have an answer for you. It's something only experience could tell me for certain. I've never denied the possibility, only see it as unlikely. I said to someone recently that it's the type of thing I only think of late at night, when I've had a little too much to drink. In the past, I've had the opportunity and rejected it, which only means that either she was not enough, or that I'm too absorbed with myself to compromise so much. Perhaps it was both.
     
  10. WANDERER Banned Banned

    Messages:
    704
    Bells
    It’s this “running” that women do that frustrates me sometimes.
    One doesn’t’ know if they are running because they find you repulsive or they are running because they find you attractive.

    That last part of your post touched my heart.
    I experienced something similar last year with the death of my father.
    But how many actually get to experience this level of intimacy and love?
    Most are in relationships of comfort or superficial self-interest. They marry because their family expects them to or because everyone else is or their biological clock is ticking or they are attracted to the others money/status.
    Most are in relationships they’ve settled for because they could not take solitude for long or they could not risk dieing alone.

    When the majority speaks of love I cringe. They blemish the word with their delusions and their concessions.
    We often use words like ‘love’, ‘intimacy’, ‘friendship’, ‘compassion’ or even ‘hate’, ‘lust’, ‘envy’ but we rarely comprehend their depth or their essence.

    The word ‘friendship’ for instance is one most often used in a flippant nonchalant way.
    Everyone is everyone else’s friend when all they are is acquaintances.
    Friendship is a sacred word which signifies trust, choice, alliance, empathy, loyalty or it means nothing.
     
  11. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,053
    Wanderer

    I ran because I was scared of committing to anyone again. I'd been very badly hurt the last time I let someone get close to me and frankly it nearly destroyed me. I lost faith in myself and in those around me. I had allowed myself to open up fully to someone and trusted them with my soul and it was torn apart. The reason I ran had everything to do with me and not my partner.

    At a guess, not many do. But when you do experience it, the result can be life changing. What I saw by my uncles deathbed changed me forever. It made me look at my life and my relationship with new eyes.

    True. Sadly, I know many who married for those reasons and in the end, in the whole scheme of life, they end up being unhappy and unsatisfied. Some continue in this unhappy state on the inside while giving the world the impression of bliss, but you can see in their eyes how unhappy they are. Others just end up trying to find happiness and love elsewhere through either cheating or leaving their partner.

    I agree. Those words describe feelings that are in many ways impossible to explain. I have a friend who's unhappy in her relationship. She once asked me how do I love my partner. When I told her that what I felt could not be put into words because they can't be explained, she couldn't understand how I could say such a thing. Personally I don't think they really can. It runs so deep that to use words such as 'love' etc would only be a minute amount to what I really feel. To each their own I guess. But you are right, to use such words only appears to make it so trivial. Feelings can rarely be described because they are so deep.

    True.

    Fenris

    Some people are just born to be nomads Fenris, with the need to move on to something new. All of one's actions will have a consequence on one's personal life, regardless of what those actions are. You move around a lot because you feel the need to. If you didn't move around, you'd have other consequences to deal with, different consequences.

    Nothing is unlikely and nothing is for certain.

    If she was the one for you, then you'd not have rejected it and you'd have come out of your own world and seen her. The fact that you haven't found the opportunity or noticed it probably means that she was not what you want deep down... that she was not really for you.
     
  12. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    9,879
    Quote: If she was the one for you, then you'd not have rejected it and you'd have come out of your own world and seen her. The fact that you haven't found the opportunity or noticed it probably means that she was not what you want deep down... that she was not really for you.


    New age poppycock! People often shut down or reject a 'perfect' love or viable partner for a variety of reasons. There is no 'meant to be' only 'what we create' or 'what we risk'.
     
  13. Bells Staff Member

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    22,053
    Ermm Lucysnow, I kind of meant it in the sense that if she were the one he felt love for and connected to, then he'd come out of his own world and see her as such. That his feelings would tell him what to do.
     
  14. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,879
    Quote:I kind of meant it in the sense that if she were the one he felt love for and connected to, then he'd come out of his own world and see her as such. That his feelings would tell him what to do.

    Yes and to that I meant poppycock. Just because a man 'felt love' or 'connected to' does not mean he would come out of his shell. Women run right, don't you think men run too? The notion that ones feelings would tell one what to do, or even that one should rely on ones feelings (as precarious and ephemeral as feelings tend to be) is also poppycock; an oversimplification of ones motives. Feelings are not always clear and are often mixed with fear and men tend to override their feelings.
     

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