MONOGAMY [A St Valentines gift]

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by WANDERER, Feb 12, 2004.

  1. WANDERER Banned Banned

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    704
    Lucysnow
    I believe it is because men need to conquer things, need to dominate and own them and not just belong to them or participate with them in harmony, as women want to. The masculine requires dominion where the feminine requires harmony.
    This masculine need is reliant on creating accurate objective strategies, based on abstract mental modeling.
    Just like in hunting. We must first understand the other species, know its habits and weaknesses before we can bag it.
    This entails an objectification of that which is desirable and the suppression of emotion that may warp accurate strategizing. Just like in a hunt the emotion of fear must be overcome in order for the kill to proceed efficiently. That’s why a man offers himself to a women absentmindedly and only to gratify self and then eventually gets emotionally involved when he becomes addicted to the gratification, whereas women begin with complete abandonment to emotionality and eventually begin to perceive the other more objectively, which sometimes leads to disillusionment.

    Yes, but only if you change the ‘men’ label for the ‘masculine’ one.
    The difference?
    Both men and women can be masculine or feminine to varying degrees.
    So your statement should read: Only the masculine can find balance in a relationship.
    Whether the masculine is found in a women or a man is irrelevant.
    I say this because there is an ongoing discussion as to the nature of femininity on another thread and I have commented on the feminization of man myself on another where I mention this fact.
    I know men that are much more feminine in their psychology than some women and so for them the difficulty of finding balance or for separating emotion from desire is equally as difficult.
    Having a penis is a detail. A somewhat relevant detail but still a detail.

    The Apollonian side, I believe, more accurately symbolizes masculinity where the Dionysian is purely feminine.

    I agree. People have a tendency to forget how things were before they had someone or something and so they stop appreciating it appropriately. They forget about the solitude that was soothed away or the need that was absolved or the gap that was filled.
    Every time the electricity is cut, in our homes, we become aware of all the things we have become dependant on because of it and sense the anxiety of absence.
    The same happens in relationships. We begin with passion and heightened emotions and expectations[lasting between 1-6 months], then a period of contentment and bliss follows [1-3 years] and after that a slow insidious decline into comfort and taking it for granted [4-7 years; ergo the 7 year itch]. If it causes a split then the shock of self-realization and the emptiness left through the loss of that which we thought was fixed and now that it is gone it fills us with the memory of the past and the recognition that nothing is fixed in this world and that change happens even when we don’t perceive it. It reminds us of our ephemeral and fleeting existence where nothing is absolute or solid. Depression follows and then the slow climb up again.
    The only way to prevent this is a conscious decision not to allow it to happen or to adapt to the changing circumstances through struggle and effort.
    If we do not want wood to decay we treat it every so often to prolong its solidity.
    When one sees the other as a gift, to be rediscovered, re-explored and enjoyed anew with every sunrise, as one should do with everything in life, then instead of taking it for granted he/she is almost pleasantly surprised that it is still there, available to him/her and he/she gives thanks to it for remaining so.
    One should wake up every morning and be amazed that he or she actually did so. Then the entire day becomes magic.
    So when you wake up and look at your loveror wife or mate sleeping there, imagine the empty space without them and give thanks for their presence.
    There are those that will never fill their beds.

    I agree again. This “bombardment” causes information overload and fills us with discontentment because of confusion that can lead to cynicism.
    Consumerism bases its power on making the mind unhappy with what it has and forces it to crave what it does not have.
    If you do not have a car then you must have one or you don’t belong, you are somehow wanting in some way or weird. If you have a car then it isn’t good enough, you must buy a ‘better’ one, a more expensive one, the latest model.
    If you are in a relationship then there is a better man or woman out there to be enjoyed because our partners are products for consuming and so interchangeable with others. Warm bodies to fill the void. This because we find no connection to their minds or personality that can be unique and distinct, we only connect to them physically where body parts are not that different from one another.
    If, like the elephant man said, “The mind is a true measure of a man” then how many of us truly know our partners true ‘measure’ and not only their physical manifestation of that measure, in other words a shadow of it.

    Capitalism is dependant on spreading anxiety and envy.
    We live in a culture of plenty. We have everything we can possibly need, if only we pay the price to get it, and yet still nobody is contented on any level.
    We are being programmed to be gluttons and greedy automatons.
    Someone has a bigger car, a bigger house, bigger boobs, a bigger penis, more toys, more books, more goodies and more gadgets. Nothing is ever enough!
    Why? Because we measure ourselves externally, through the shadow of our being rather than form its essence
    So the system promotes anxiety to overcome resistance.
    Watch the ‘Threat Levels’ in the US and all the imminent disasters we must protect ourselves against.
    During the Millennium change, do you recall the levels of fear and stupidity out there?
    People were buying bottles of water, guns for the coming holocaust, food stuffs for the end of civilization and afterwards…... nothing.
    The system promotes fear and anxiety to retain control through unbalancing the individual with extreme emotionalism and to promote consumerism.
    Nothing can mean anything because then it will be kept and not discarded.
    When a car has a more profound meaning for us, due to memories or emotion, then we are unlikely to throw it away for a newer one. So a car must not have a profound meaning it must be interchangeable and replaceable and totally devoid of any value so that it can become garbage more easily. The same can be said for human beings.

    On this very Forum we can see the effects of information surplus on the intellect.
    This Forum is full of bright, modern young, and not so young, people that have read hundreds of books, can quote from numerous sources, can find subjects to discuss from a myriad of disciplines and are they happy, are they more wise, are they free?
    They can twist a clever verse and post artistic prose and they can present images and meanings from multiple books on multiple subjects, but they lack any solidity, any concreteness and they dream of ancient times where things were simpler and ‘nobler’.
    In a world where anything is probable, nothing is ‘truth’ and one can argue any point from any perspective drawing from any source, the focus turns away from substance and into presentation, out of the depths and into the surfaces.
    I’ve seen entire posts beautifully written and full of symbolism and linguistic artistry that say absolutely nothing but express sarcasm, a lack of respect for anything and everything and an arrogance produced from never having felt humility to the core.
    Who is more likely to enter a rink all cocky and sure of themselves and prance around as if they’ve already won the fight? Only one that has never had his face bloodied and his pride shattered.
    The US is a country that exemplifies the arrogance and thoughtlessness of those with little experience with defeat. The war in Vietnam and the current war in Iraq is proof of that. Few European countries, that have prior experience with devastation and war within their own borders, would have been capable of launching such an attack so callously and haphazardly.
    Current low voting participation, in the US, is a sign of an indifference derived from a confidence that no matter who wins things will remain pretty much the same and no major consequences will be incurred and so no responsibilities accepted. In other words they take things for granted and become indifferent to them or even demanding of them until something like 9/11 occurs to remind them that their actions have consequences that are sometimes not immediate or direct or only short term.

    Another metaphor based on the Ultimate Fighting Championships.
    It reminds me of Karate Masters that rely on flamboyance, myth and displays of acrobatics to dissuade others from attacking them. They insinuate prowess rather than prove it. They put on exhibitions of physical skill and never enter into real fighting competitions preferring to radiate power through mythological factories of ‘art’ , excusing themselves through lame ideas about passivity and manufactured displays of brick-breaking. But who wins the annual Ultimate Fighting Championships? The grapplers, the wrestlers, the simple fighters that have a balance of physical strength, courage and experience and don’t waste their time on showiness and pretence but enter the rink, remain efficient, straight forward and effective.
    Have you ever seen a roundhouse karate kick or a flying somersault in one of these real fights, as you see them displayed in movies? No, because anyone stupid enough to attempt it would get his ass kicked in real life.
    So here we are in this manufactured arena and we see the flamboyance and linguistic somersaults of members that know how to fight through learning it in books or being trained in gyms; they can break bricks with their words and perform intricate linguistic manoeuvres that wow the crowds but that would probably get their asses kicked out there in the streets where hair-pulling, eye-gouging, scratching and groin-kneeing are not excluded from the rules.
    Do you get my drift?

    Why would I be curious about something I already have personal knowledge of?
    I know about male sexuality; it’s female sexuality that is beyond my experiential reach and so becomes interesting to me for many reasons.

    No, I have not read that book you mention.
    Compared to many of you here, I haven't read many books at all. I didn't pick up a philosophy book until I was 28. What I've learned has been through life directly. Imagine my surprise when I discovered that others felt the same way as I did and that I wasn't sick in some way, when I first read Schopenhauer, Kant, Nietzsche, Russell, Plato, Dostoyevsky, and so on.
    But I am aware that women need to be engaged on many levels if they are to remain satisfied in a relationship.
    Men are on a disadvantage before and early on in a relationship but gain the advantage as time goes by because once they have been accepted by a woman their investment is secured. Women need good returns to ensure that their investment keeps on growing.
    Men think short-term, women long-term.

    That is why a strong Will, made so through ascetic training, is essential here.
    A noble mind isn’t governed by physicality, it is merely an extension of it.
    A noble mind can just as well go without as it can indulge.
    Instincts are dominated and governed by intellect and the intellect is influenced and inspired, but not controlled, by instinct. Balance.
    The temptation of offering ones abundance to a multiplicity is a sign that this abundance is new and not yet controlled or that one wants to display and show-off because he hasn't grown comfortable with his wealth.
    Just like when a fat girl, after years of being alone, loses many pounds and discovers her beauty and desirability and then is tempted to offer her beauty to all men that now crave her and run after her, so is the beautiful soul enticed to spread itself thin and offer itself to everyone indiscriminately, just as long as need is presented to it.

    In time one discovers that not all can appreciate or are worthy of such a gift and that sometimes when one has plenty one loses focus and the one.
    Then one wants to not squander gifts upon the unworthy but wants to offer them to those that can take advantage of them fully and completely.

    Yes, I know many reading this can relate to what you said. Especially these days.
    Time uncovers all truths. Nobody can remain hidden forever, he/she will eventually slip-up and shoot himself/herself in the foot.
    I’ve always tried to present my deficiencies first and up-front, so that what comes later, if there is a later, is pleasant rather than unpleasant. So I usually expose myself, warts, scars and all and hope the other won’t be disgusted by the sight and runs off in terror.
    I have this tendency to lay all my cards on the table straight away and dare the other to walk away or towards me. It's the way I'm built.
    I figure that my deficiencies will be discovered sooner or later anyway so why go through all the suffering, due to prolonged connection, when I can save myself a lot of pain by driving the other away from the start.
    But if the other does not turn and run then I know I’m onto a good thing.
    I would rather be hated for what I am than loved for what I am not.
    I would rather be alone than be with someone for all the wrong reasons.
    I figure that if the other rejects me for what I am then she wasn’t for me anyways or if they choose another instead of me then she was not meant for me, and I move on with my life.
    Simple and to the point.

    Most failed relationships are based on some level of hypocrisy and fallacy or else they wouldn’t have failed or the failure wouldn’t have surprised either one.

    Jesus Christ what is going on in this place?!!
    Is everyone trying to fuck everyone else?
    I’m getting that nauseating feeling again.
    Are your words a coincidence or the product of the same forum story?
    I wonder.

    Back to your questions.

    Because people have so much need, sometimes approaching sickness, that they are willing to compromise their dignity, freedom and pride to placate it.
    Everyone can talk the talk of nobility and say the right words at the right moments.
    Well not everyone but some of us.
    But how many can walk the walk.
    Why do you think I’ve said in the past that action is a more reliable source of information than words?
    Actions can’t lie.
    I can speak against thieving and write essays about not stealing but when the opportunity arises and I pocket that stray watch, lets say, then all my words were empty were they not.
    Most of the times we ourselves aren’t conscious that we are bull-shitting.
    We actually believe we are being honest and we justify all our indiscretions with clever excuses.
    KNOW THYSELF.
    But even a lie to our selves is exposed through action. Is it not?
    The real spirit of every human being cannot help but express itself through action.
    If we were able to see everyone on this forum, their body posture, their facial expressions, the way they moved, gestured, smirked, the fluctuations in their voice, their style of dress, their demeanor would all attest to their true being. They would be unable to hide who they were.
    But since we are limited to the written word where facades are made easier and myths can be created with ease some skepticism is always prudent.

    Correct. That’s why a noble mind relies more on evidence than speculation when making serious decisions.

    Abandonment is terrifying to me. It gives control to another and offers the weapon of ones own demise to the hand that can yield it.
    This level of intimacy and trust is hard to come by. It takes years, sometimes.

    Philosophers are human, after all, and so subject to pressures and influences just like everyone else.
    This ‘hypersensitivity’, I often speak about, leads to weariness that can diminish resistance to corruption. When someone sees so much one is inclined to become tired by the futility of it all.
    This is dependant on the strength of character and force of spirit within each one.
    We all have different breaking points, but we all have them.
     
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  3. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    9,879
    *Wanderer*

    Quote:This entails an objectification of that which is desirable and the suppression of emotion that may warp accurate strategizing. Just like in a hunt the emotion of fear must be overcome in order for the kill to proceed efficiently. That’s why a man offers himself to a women absentmindedly and only to gratify self and then eventually gets emotionally involved when he becomes addicted to the gratification, whereas women begin with complete abandonment to emotionality and eventually begin to perceive the other more objectively, which sometimes leads to disillusionment.

    Wow, yea, I have seen this often enough and it is always annoying with men in this way because if a woman abandons herself she is dismayed if the man has not. I have learned that a healthy detachment is prudent when one begins to feel the wave of emotion for another. It means using ones mind to override the feelings one may have no matter how strong in order to better perceive a situation. I'm lousy at this at times but when my focus is steady I can be very good at it. Its a safety measure but it doesn't feel good to have to do it.

    Quote:This Forum is full of bright, modern young, and not so young, people that have read hundreds of books, can quote from numerous sources, can find subjects to discuss from a myriad of disciplines and are they happy, are they more wise, are they free?

    Erudition does not necessarily translate into wisdom, freedom and happiness. Actually some of the happiest, free, wise people I have ever met had no book learning whatsoever. Information is just that information. A computer can spill accurate information. Knowing how to determine or perceive, find understanding is its own acumen. But freedom, happiness and wisdom? That is a different journey altogether and if one is on it then whatever 'information' they have will only enhance that journey but it is not necessary for it. I for example have noticed that in some areas I can be hard-headed; needing to learn lesson more than once before becoming 'aware', 'in-tune' and making changes. LOL. My grandmother always accused me of hard-headedness! At other times when I was more rebellious and experimenting in not so healthy areas she would say "your deeds are dark". She was an interesting woman.

    Quote:it’s female sexuality that is beyond my experiential reach and so becomes interesting to me for many reasons.

    What do you find most baffling about female sexuality? Or women in general?

    Quote:I’ve always tried to present my deficiencies first and up-front,

    Smart. I tend to do the same but for different reasons. I simply do not have the energy to 'front'. What I need to learn though, and have experienced in sciforums during the Tiassa-Spookz flame war, is that honesty even on the most sensitive issues can later be exploited. But I know you do not mean exposing oneself to just anyone.

    Quote:Jesus Christ what is going on in this place?!! Is everyone trying to fuck everyone else? I’m getting that nauseating feeling again. Are your words a coincidence or the product of the same forum story? I wonder.

    Yes my words are a coincidence. The story I related concerned someone I know in realtime. All the correspondance or sciforum relationships I have are platonic; all the interest they show me is platonic.

    Quote:Abandonment is terrifying to me. It gives control to another and offers the weapon of ones own demise to the hand that can yield it.
    This level of intimacy and trust is hard to come by. It takes years, sometimes.

    I do agree that it gives power and access to another when one abandones themselves or trusts another, but to never yield? I don't know, its safer but how are you able to ever establish intimacy? Or feel 'adventure'? I am not a control freak I am the opposite. I love the feeling of giving up control so I can experience something new, give myself over to experience adventure. Many people I know are awed by the way I travel. I can buy a ticket and within a week show up in a country I know little about intending to stay a few months without planning anything. Usually I don't know what I am going to do and only keep a loose idea. This loose idea is open so I can flow in the direction of whatever stream opens itself to me. In this way I have found work, lodging, friends and marvelous experiences. I go in a state of innocence but not naivety; its a 'childlike' way of giving myself over and trusting what is in front of me. I am open to meeting new people and 'trusting' the situation. Its why I get to know places so well, because I am never really a tourist but some vagabond showing up to be a part of their stream of life. I have met some wonderful people this way; generous and interesting. Have formed solid long-term friendships from this way. Its a creative way of life symbolized by the principle that if I 'float' on a wave without trying to control it I won't drown but will be carried safely to shore; like surfing.
     
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  5. WANDERER Banned Banned

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    Lucysnow

    What is annoying about women is the games they play, the ‘hard-to-get’, ‘my-pussy-is-a-jewel-that-must-be-earned’ bullshit. Most women send contradicting messages to men that they should decipher.
    Some men like that first stage of uncertainty and probing the defenses. I hate it.
    I always want to know where I stand with the other so that I don’t embarrass myself or waste my time.
    I have a three-strike rule; I make three attempts and if they all fail I move on.

    What I’m beginning to like about women is how honest they are with themselves and how attuned they are to nuance and how aware of psychology they seem to be.

    How much effort and time, female sexuality, requires. How deep and profound it is.
    How much control some of them have over their instincts and desires.
    How easily they can be both strong and weak, arrogant and humble, domineering and submissive.
    How readily they offer themselves to another when they are inspired.
    How they can walk on those nine-inch heels.

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    That’s why I always say that I’m the kind of person that grows on people, like a fungus.
    That’s what I meant by ‘Beware of Greeks’.
    I make little or no first impressions but given enough time others start warming up to me.
    Why?
    I am genuine. I have nothing I am ashamed about in myself.
    I express my full being openly or I hide it completely. There’s no hypocrisy there.
    In fact, hypocrisy is what I despise the most in people.
    If I can’t be honest I don’t say anything.
    That is I do all this only towards my own kind or to the people I call my own, that I love and respect and trust.
    To the masses I am what they want me to be. I play the part they place on me. I mock and taunt them. I wear the masks they buy for me.


    Good because this place is creeping me out.
    If one wants to study how intelligence is not a guarantee of wisdom then here is the right place to start.
    It’s not enough to be aware but the right psychology and emotional fortitude to accept what we become aware of is essential.
    Here I am the ‘mirror holder’. Showing humanity what it is and accepting my own reflection there as well.
    But isn’t freedom only possible when enslavement is perceived?

    The Wanderer wanders by and raises a dust-storm behind him.
    Oh, how they must hate me now those imbeciles and pretenders.
    I can hear them plotting as we speak. I can hear their anxious heartbeats waiting for a slipup, waiting for a mistake, waiting for an opportunity to unleash their contempt for me.
    But what they don’t know is that I did little really, I just setup the right environment and built the stage on which they played their own parts. What they did, they did to themselves.

    You can’t.
    That’s why I’ve rarely ever been really intimate.
    Most of my past relationships were purely physical
    I think it may be easier for women.

    I’m training myself to do just that as we speak.
    I’ve gathered my forces and I’ve built my army; now it’s time to set them free to let them loose upon the world, come what may.


    Jeez I wish I could do that.
    Now you have me awed.
    I’m the kind of guy that will have to consider all the probabilities, take all the possible mishaps into account, create contingency plans and contingencies to contingency plans, plan my moves carefully and precisely, evaluate all the ramifications and consequences and then go forth tentatively.
    That’s what addiction to control does to you. It weighs your feet down with over-analysis even if it rewards you with a more spherical perception of things.

    I once met a British fellow that traveled the world working odd jobs [he was a bus-boy at a restaurant when I met him], experienced a country, saved enough money to move on and then did so. He told me he had lived on a beach in Thailand and in Kenya and then he met a girl from Canada there and he came to Montreal where I met him. After that he went to England with plans to go back to Africa.
    I remember how I envied him knowing I could never do that.
     
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  7. Bells Staff Member

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    22,062
    Lucysnow

    Well said. Why is it that people take so much for granted? We take so much for granted that we end up forgetting what really matters and it only takes a catastrophe to make see what precious things we may have in our lives. I see it all the time with friends who are always in love and whose relationships never last more than 6 months. You know when you have conversations and they are discussing how wonderful it all is and I usually smile and say yes it is... and they look at me and say the 'oh you wouldn't understand.. you've been in a relationship for too long to understand how wonderful the start of a relationship is'...

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    .. I've learned to just say nothing now because in a few months they come crying to me saying that their heart is broken... only to find love again in a couple of weeks. They are always on the lookout for something better and it seems that so is the partner and it's as though both are in a race to see who can find someone better first and then break up. Damn fools.

    I couldn't agree with you more! I too was once in a relationship where the other half lied to me for so long and when it all finally came out, I was devastated and basically crushed. We were engaged and I thought I'd found that perfect partner (I was a young fool then instead of being the older and more experienced fool that I am now lol) and he'd kept something from me that was so fundamental to our future that it became my disaster. It all resulted in my losing it for quite a while and become so untrusting of people that I couldn't open myself up to anyone to find out their true self.

    That experience taught me so much and when I was quite ill a few years ago, I told my partner that if it was a worse case scenario then I was leaving him because he didn't need to be burdened with someone who was ill and he should find someone who was healthy. He called me a fool but I think deep down he was amazed that I'd be willing to even consider doing such a thing. I thought to myself that to be honest about everything right from the start was the only way to go and I never lied once to him about my condition and what was happening (I fell ill a few months after we met). Had it been the worse case scenario, looking back on it today, I guess I would have left him because I'd feel guilty in case he felt obligated into not leaving a sick girlfriend. He stuck by me through the whole thing and no matter how many times I suggested he would be better without a sick me, he told me to shut up and get on with it. I still cry about it sometimes even now, to think that where most would have headed for the hills, he did not and saw me at my absolute worst and still feel for me as I do for him. I guess we grew stronger through the experience and it made me stronger as an individual as well. But one thing it taught me, it is always best to be honest about everything, no matter how ugly it may be. When I realised I was sicker than I thought, I told him straight away and gave him the option of leaving and he refused, I persisted and he refused, and he knew that option was always there for him during the time of my illness (I told him enough times lol), but he stuck with me and saw me through it all. He knew everything about what was going on the whole time and he knew all of the worst case scenarios at the end of it. While the absolute worst case did not eventuate, the second worst did and he and I stuck together and he helped me deal with it and told me it didn't matter... all that mattered was that I get better in the end. I could have kept a lot of it from him and hidden it, but it would have gotten me nowhere and would have ended up with both of us being heartbroken. Lucy, if someone is not honest with you from the start, they never will be during and at the end.


    It always amazes me how people can actively look for love and then be shocked that they are deceived later on. All people wear masks when they are out looking for something as they want to attract a certain type of person, a person who is also looking. Like all animals out on the hunt, one must hide their true selves and make themselves out to be something that they are not. In a nutshell, one must make themselves out to be what they think the other is looking for. If people were just honest with themselves foremost and with others, there would be less heartbreaks and divorces I guess. The truth always reveals itself, no matter how hard one tries to hide it, so why do so many damn fools try to hide so much? I'll never understand it.
     
  8. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,062
    Wanderer

    True, abandonment is always terrifying, but once you overcome that fear, you become so much stronger. My grandmother always used to tell me that I am the only one who can give anyone else control over me. If you allow someone to have that control, then you have also given them that weapon. But then again I'm not like my grandmother lol, I think that sometimes it is just better to let everything go and let it all happen as it is meant to happen. That feeling of freedom is wonderful Wanderer, but to do so, you have to have control over any fear. After all, if something bad happens, you learn from it and you become a better person because of it.

    Hence why when it finds you or you find it, you have to overcome any fears and embrace it all. Nothing can describe that feeling of when someone knows you so well that just by looking in your eyes they know your wants and fears, how that feeling of being so close to someone that no words have to be spoken, that feeling of trusting them so much that you can tell them anything and everything and sometimes not tell them and they know. When you find it Wanderer, don't let any fear take it from you.

    True strong women don't play such games but will be as honest with you as you are with them. Honesty is always the key and those who behave like 15 year olds have no clue or idea of what true love means or what monogamy really means. They are usually the ones who are always searching for something better.

    Ok... maybe not so honest. Maybe you should compare yourself to a blade of grass... how once sown, no amount of cutting will get rid of you. Fungus growth only makes one think of antibiotics

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    ..

    Ooookkkaaayyyy! Could it be that you're wondering too much? Or maybe you're taking this place a tad too seriously? Do you really care what we all think of you? Sheesh if someone doesn't like me in here (and there are plenty, you, yourself included amongst the masses), who cares? I don't even think about it. If they are plotting, let them plot. The way I see it is that if anyone has that much time on their hands that they can plot anything about others on here, then they have way too much time on their hands and should get a life. This place is but a minute part of life, treat is as such.

    Then just do it! Get control over your addiction and over yourself and just buy that ticket without planning the extras and just go. Let yourself be free for once and live that freedom. There's this saying (slang saying that is) where I was born 'arrive qui arrive' and it roughly translates to let things happen as they happen. So, stop planning so much and just go for it and enjoy all that happens as a result. Spontaneity is a wonderful thing Wanderer, you should embrace it and reap all of the rewards.
     
  9. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,879
    *Wanderer*

    Quote:What is annoying about women is the games they play, the ‘hard-to-get’, ‘my-pussy-is-a-jewel-that-must-be-earned’ bullshit. Most women send contradicting messages to men that they should decipher.

    Aha! Well yes women oftentimes do play games (hard-to-get) but its not without reason. You yourself Wanderer have spoken of choosing only the 'worthy', well a woman (if she's been 'out there' long enough) knows exactly what happens if she opens the window to her heart too early; the risk involved is she speaks of 'feelings' before she is sure of another's intentions. Because it is so easy for a man to play a pretense in order to have a woman yield, either as a show of power or to find his way into her bed. When a woman plays a game she soon discovers who is serious about pursuit; men and women soon play themself out if it is game they play. Women are generally at a disadvantage when she gives her heart away too early (even if that is what her heart cries out for her to do); the risks of abandonment remember? Seduction is always a game, love never. But consider this, a woman also knows when it is time to stop playing, usually when she has sorted out her feelings and fears. When a woman has mastered her emotions to some degree she can then take a risk after its been weighed. One should never embarrass themself or waste their time but approach in earnest; three attempts sounds reasonable. I also think many women enjoy being pursued even if they have no intentions of being with someone.

    Quote:How they can walk on those nine-inch heels.

    Nine-inch heels? Sweetheart I will never know! This is something that also amazes me; I could never be comfortable in nine-inch heels. I think a women too often shape themselves into something uncomfortable but that is crazy in my mind. Dressing comfortably means not having to be self-conscious all the time. I guess some women are so accustomed to standing on needle points that they no longer think of the needles holding them up. It takes balance. I can wear heels but not so high; I must stand firmly on the ground so the heel must feel solid.

    Quote:If one wants to study how intelligence is not a guarantee of wisdom then here is the right place to start.

    Well the first hurdle against wisdom on these forums tends to be teenage youth (or close to teenage years) and then there is the hostility. Think of all the personal attacks and time venting ones aggression. Its the hostility that gets in the way of what could be an interesting argument or topic leading towards understanding and consideration of ideas.

    Quote:But what they don’t know is that I did little really, I just setup the right environment and built the stage on which they played their own parts. What they did, they did to themselves.

    True its called 'playing oneself out'. But you did more than simply set the stage, you left a scent leading others into confrontation.

    Quote:That’s why I’ve rarely ever been really intimate.
    Most of my past relationships were purely physical
    I think it may be easier for women.

    For some or many women it is easier to establish intimacy, but these days women inherit so much bagagge that they too are built like Fort Knox. Hence you have everyone running around pretending they don't need warmth. Wanderer I understand why you would rarely allow yourself to be intimate but there is greater risk in being too closed to intimacy as well. If one lives as an amoeba one will also die an amoeba. What is the point in being marvelous if you are unable to share it with anyone? As for the physical relationships you describe? Do they satisfy? Or is it that they fizzle before intimacy can be established? Women crave intimacy Wanderer you know that.

    Quote:I’m training myself to do just that as we speak.
    I’ve gathered my forces and I’ve built my army; now it’s time to set them free to let them loose upon the world, come what may.

    But you do not need an army, only to open up the first gate in the fortress and be a little more patient with other people and yourself, quarantine them wait and then open the second, quarantine them again etc. One doesn't prepare for adventure they just have to be open to it.

    Quote:...he went to England with plans to go back to Africa.
    I remember how I envied him knowing I could never do that.

    You mean you choose not to.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2004
  10. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,879
    *Bells*

    Ah Bells what to do what to do! You know why people interest me? Because they have so many layers of depth to them. Nothing is ever simple with another human being, nothing is ever simple with ourself. I recall Xev saying that people are boring, but I don't find this at all. Discovering a person is like attempting to assimilate oneself into another culture or country. One must learn the landscape, language, history, cultural idiosyncrasies, economy, ideological structure etc, etc, etc, We are all our own universe.
     
  11. WANDERER Banned Banned

    Messages:
    704
    Bells

    I believe that for this to be possible, for the courage to let go to be present, the individual has to be reassured and be confident enough in himself/herself to know that, whatever happens, he/she will survive it and will learn and grow from it.
    If the individual suspects that the risk may cause irreparable damage or might threaten psychological stability he/she will never let go.
    That’s why this ‘abandonment’ occurs either in people that are ignorant and totally oblivious to anything or that have experienced and lived through enough, and survived it, to know that now they are strong and so more able to take the risk.

    I think most of us know this feeling through our relationships to our parents.
    But no I personally haven’t felt that with anyone else outside family.
    But I’m hoping to.

    I didn’t want to appear too arrogant.
    Oops, too late.

    I don’t take anything seriously, that’s my problem and the reason for my complete lack of social and economic ambition.
    Life for me is a game and an opportunity for exploration. Life, for me, is an adventure not a mission, as it is for most.

    Starting this year I will.
    I’ve started doing things already that I thought I never could do.
    I’ve opened my heart and my mind and I’ve risked ridicule and rejection, as I never have before.
    Now I’m feeling a little uncomfortable but I’m getting used to the sensation.
    If only those damned doubts and warnings stop popping up in my head, I’ll be alright.

    Lucysnow

    I am painfully aware of this necessity. But I do think some women take it too far and use it to bolster their self-esteem when they intend nothing beyond it.
    Many women use sex as a tool of manipulation.
    It’s hard to know when a woman is testing you as a means of serious consideration and when she’s just toying with you.

    But those heels make your asses look so much more perkier.

    I know.

    I’ll never admit to that under oath.
    I’ll be condemned as a ‘Troll’ if I do.

    Men crave it also; most of them though are so stupid that they don’t know what it means or how to get it. So they play that macho role for others and hide their dissatisfaction. The thing about playing roles is that if you play them long enough you actually begin to believe that the role you play is the real self and you start buying into your own bullshit.
    The teen years are troublesome for most not only because of physical hormonal changes but mainly because this is the time when society and culture forces us to leave our real selves behind and adopt masks and personas fitting to our look and social status.
    We lose our genuine selves and put on new ones that fit into predetermined parts.
    This is the time we start repressing pieces of self that are deemed unworthy or unwanted by the world around us and we put on the clothes left for us by our peers, at first, and then by society. This change makes us feel like we are somehow not ‘good enough’ and that in order to feel ‘good enough’ we must begin to play a role and find a place.
    This is called conforming to the norm or “maturing”.
    Those with weak personalities and minds have no problem with this sacrifice, since the void within them is taken over by the artificial personality they adopt. That’s why weakness and stupidity most often climbs social ladders and finds positions of power within the system. But if one is strong intellectually and has a powerful original personality, to begin with, this sacrifice is unbearable and stressful. These few wind up hating the world for having to suppress parts of their self and spend a lifetime trying to free themselves from the forces that demand this conformity.
    It's kind of sad really.
    I don’t think most people know why they feel so empty or why they have so much and still feel so unhappy.
    Life itself is a state of perpetual dissatisfaction but the level of unhappiness and insecurity I perceive around me speaks more to the inability of most to understand what is important in life and what is excess and detail. Many people spend their lives in pursuit of excess and waste it on the peripherals of existence and never get to the meat and bones of it.

    Women and men may crave intimacy-women more than men- but how many can break free from their prejudices and mythological expectations to allow this intimacy to take place?
    In order for intimacy to happen both sides must accept themselves first and the other also as they are and embrace them with their faults and all.
    This rarely happens in a society that is force-fed ideals of what someone should look like, should be like, should behave like, should think like and should live like; when the ideal is not met, because it cannot unless one plays the game for just that reason, then the relationship collapses under the strain of expectation and selfishness.
     
  12. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,062
    Wanderer

    True. But it is only when you've suffered pain and experienced the worst and the best of life can you actually recognise it. Those who haven't are not only oblivious to any notion of abandonment, but they are also oblivious to life itself. Their views of the world is one that is shuttered, they refuse to look at anything other than what is right in front of them and as a result they miss out on seeing some of the most beautiful aspects of the world or life itself.

    That feeling can't be described. I've tried putting it into words so many times but it's impossible.

    That's the only way to live life. That is the only way to see the beauty and horrors of life. If you live life as though you were on a mission, you'd miss out on the little turns here and there that only an adventure can take you. I'm never short of amazed when I see people refusing to take a slight detour on any journey because they only see their destination as their ideal. It is only when we take little detours here and there that we find things that stay with us forever. How boring would life be if we didn't step off the path once in a while...

    Ignore those feelings of self doubt and warnings. You will always know when something you're about to do is bad for you and on such occasions there will be no doubts or warnings, you'll just know it yourself. I once left everything I knew behind and just moved to a different part of this country. I'd had my heart broken badly as I'd stated above and I felt that a change was good, so I just packed up and moved. Left my job, my house, my friends and some of the people I'm closest to in the world, in fact I left everything I knew behind. And I can't even begin to tell you the warnings and doubts that were in my head at that time. But I just ignored it and thought that if this was a really bad move, then somehow I'd just know. And after 7 years, in hindsight, that 'big move' was the best thing I could have ever done in my life. I feel as though that move was a rebirth for me. I'd always been one who planned everything and had to have everything sorted out before I took any step. But that move not only made me see things in a new light, but it also made me grow up and mature and realise what was important in my life. There is a lot that I could say but I'm not about to put it all on a public forum. In any case Wanderer, I wish you luck and a happy journey where ever and whenever you wish to go. Just remember, that sometimes just letting go is the best thing in the world. Stop listening to your doubts and instead follow your heart and live. Believe me, life is more interesting if you do.
     
  13. Fenris Wolf Banned Banned

    Messages:
    567
    Not sure I agree completely with this - I believe that many actually don't need it anymore. One can find themselves alone and completely happy in being so, for long periods at a time. I don't believe that warmth is so much a need as a desire. I agree that most hide their need - but not all.

    I tend to agree with you there, and find more enjoyment from exploring rather than ignoring. I have gone through long periods where I desire little or no contact at all, years at a time on occasion, but then every now and then someone or several someones will show themselves as being worth far more than that, and I'm more "alive" at such times. I'm not quite so open as you seem to be though, as most people I do in fact find extremely boring. However... there are those few. Those who are worth this will always give themselves away in small ways, showing more than the outside might suggest. A secret smile when they believe no one is watching, a look in the eyes. A brief show of boredom when the mortages and children are being discussed. It's a simple matter of observation. Find the right time or situation, push a few buttons, share a few confidences and suddenly, a world of wealth is opened up.

    Pain and the worst and best of life are relative notions in the West.

    Absolutely. I've lived my life in such a way since I was very young. I moved out of home when I was 16, and I've never spent any more than two years in one place since then, sometimes considerably less. That feeling of "rebirth" you describe has become almost an addiction, to the point where I'm almost afraid of being "comfortable". I've left perfectly good jobs, good money, friends and family behind simply because I became bored - and therein lies stagnation, and the potential death of the self.

    However, what I'm tending to find now is that the doubts are increasing. In the past, it's been so easy to do - simply move on to the next place on a whim, leave everything behind. I had no fear of consequence. As time goes on though, it becomes more and more difficult. The knowledge of mortality sets in, and I find myself thinking more of the next ten or twenty years, and how long I can continue to live in such a manner. I'm about to do it again, and this has me feeling doubt that I never have before, and it's been quite a surprise to know I'm probably not quite so capable of simply leaving everything I know for something new, as I used to. Those consequences have become more real, and far more immediate. It's become a matter of knowing precisely when to stop.

    There is also a desire to communicate more, to share with someone everything I've learned or seen. This has had a habit of popping up at most innopportune times lately, and has become another of those consequences. Of course, with a wandering lifestyle one never has time for that sort of thing, or opportunity. Being with someone else on a permanent basis almost assumes that you might only be able to make those moves rarely, if at all. This is a sacrifice which must be considered.
     
  14. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,879
    *Wanderer*

    Quote:But those heels make your asses look so much more perkier.

    Ah but wouldn't you prefer an ass that is perky no matter what?

    Quote:We lose our genuine selves and put on new ones that fit into predetermined parts. This is the time we start repressing pieces of self that are deemed unworthy or unwanted by the world around us and we put on the clothes left for us by our peers, at first, and then by society. This change makes us feel like we are somehow not ‘good enough’ and that in order to feel ‘good enough’ we must begin to play a role and find a place. This is called conforming to the norm or “maturing”.


    Yes but I think this process begins earlier than with one peers or 'society'. This really begins in the family. The family sets the tone and childhood experiences sets the necessity or the degree of this loss of genuine self (I like this term you use). But think about this, its not really a loss, its really a burying or covering up of genuine self. One can feel this self when alone. Embracing oneself completely takes practise that's all. Most of the time people don't acknowledge this genuine self and that is where problems begin; it becomes a denial of emotional self-soothing.

    Quote:Those with weak personalities and minds have no problem with this sacrifice, since the void within them is taken over by the artificial personality they adopt.

    Yes I would agree with this. Its like the mask is first used as a means of 'getting along' and then it becomes fixed. But I don't think the personality you speak of is really 'artificial' but simply incomplete.

    Quote: But if one is strong intellectually and has a powerful original personality, to begin with, this sacrifice is unbearable and stressful.

    You're right it will lead to a breakdown. LOL. Or perhaps I should say 'melt-down'...yes that is the right description; its a melting away of the mask and its defenses anything inconsequential. The genuine self revolts within you, becomes heated melting all that surrounds it and sets itself free. A process towards genuine health and well being.


    Quote: These few wind up hating the world for having to suppress parts of their self and spend a lifetime trying to free themselves from the forces that demand this conformity. It's kind of sad really.

    But why do you think it leads to hating the world? Isn't this more of an internal struggle and once free from this 'false self' a feeling of oneness and completeness will descend? While and once this is happening wouldn't society and everything external become inconsequential? A personal revolution.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2004
  15. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,879
    *Fenris*

    Quote: I believe that many actually don't need it anymore. One can find themselves alone and completely happy in being so, for long periods at a time. I don't believe that warmth is so much a need as a desire. I agree that most hide their need - but not all.

    Yes but I don't think being alone is the point. I mean I can vacillate between an extreme isolation and then intense interaction and enjoy the time being alone. Actually it is easier to be happier when alone because nothing upsets ones equilibrium.
    I agree that not all hide their need, but exceptions to any general rule only reinforces the generalization.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2004
  16. Xev Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,943
    Fenris:
    I'm beginning to figure warmth is something we're culturally programmed to want. When you think about it - what does a human need? Food, warm clothing or shelter, water.

    True. Pain is always relative, but it's ludicrious for someone born in an industrialized country to say they know of "the worst of pain".
    We have it easy.

    We've talked about this. The lifestyle only works with one predisposed to solitude, and in turn it feeds into that solitude. Only the enlightened, who know the true value of human interaction can stand it.

    And yet as one gets older, one's instincts tell one to settle down, crave warmth. The mind knows it's a joke - the body is stronger in its desires. It's the mark of a superior mind to be able to suppress the body's desires.

    But superiority is bred out of our culture. Remember Kerouac? This isn't that sort of world anymore, where one can scrape up a few bucks before moving on. That's your main obstacle.

    Lucysnow:
    No not really - people are extremely simple. They have a very few drives - they want pleasure for themselves and power over others - once one knows this, dissecting them is easy as pie.

    Some are more complicated, but it all comes down to what a person's main drives are, and what modifies those.

    Quite correct.

    Men respond only to those who are above them. The more devoted a woman shows herself to be, the more her partner sobers and turns domineering and faithless.

    You say love is never a game - it is for those who are not weaklings. More correctly, sex is a battle and love is simply a way of dressing up the sexual urge. In the beginning control is up for grabs, while the battlefield may not be level, the partners must fight each other in order that one has it. But if one wins, the possibility of communion is lost forever. Both must be victors – and for that the lover must be as strong as oneself – in order that a strict delination of dominence and submission is avoided, and then – then and only then is true communication possible or what the vulgar refer to as lovemaking.

    At the end of the day, the true aim of eroticism is complete communication. However, this state can only be reached with a certain sort of person, if it's possible at all. Myself, I've never progressed beyond a few weeks of power games. I was bitterly disappointed in the object of my affections and spent months blaming myself for wanting the impossible. But giving it serious thought - intimacy is precious, however much shame it involves.
     
  17. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,879
    *Xev*

    Quote:...Some are more complicated, but it all comes down to what a person's main drives are, and what modifies those.

    Okay yes I agree with this, but I often suspect that what we perceive as simple is a well fixed mask. But I don't deny that there really are 'simple' people in the world, but I usually think of this as a genuine shallowness of character or personality.

    Quote: Men respond only to those who are above them. The more devoted a woman shows herself to be, the more her partner sobers and turns domineering and faithless.

    Yes but this is true of women also...(smiles) remember Sacher-Masochs Veunus?

    Quote:You say love is never a game - it is for those who are not weaklings. More correctly, sex is a battle and love is simply a way of dressing up the sexual urge.

    I disagree completely unless you think visciousness and pretense makes one strong. The sexual urge is simply an urge and one can have fantastic sex without it calling on love. One can love without submitting to the sex urge and it would not be diminished in its presence. You oversimplify this thing we call love. One doesn't have to 'fall in love' to fulfill the sex drive.

    Quote: In the beginning control is up for grabs, while the battlefield may not be level, the partners must fight each other in order that one has it. But if one wins, the possibility of communion is lost forever. Both must be victors – and for that the lover must be as strong as oneself – in order that a strict delination of dominence and submission is avoided, and then – then and only then is true communication possible or what the vulgar refer to as lovemaking.

    I agree.

    Quote:At the end of the day, the true aim of eroticism is complete communication. However, this state can only be reached with a certain sort of person, if it's possible at all.

    I agree wholeheartedly.

    Quote: Myself, I've never progressed beyond a few weeks of power games. I was bitterly disappointed in the object of my affections and spent months blaming myself for wanting the impossible. But giving it serious thought - intimacy is precious, however much shame it involves.

    (smiles) This is the acknowledgement of true value Xev.
     
  18. Xev Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,943
    Lucysnow:
    You know, that's interesting. I consider myself quite good with masks - yet I've never fixed a mask. For me, masking is not even a conscious process. Just a matter of realizing what people see you as and playing with their prejudices.
    So I'm somewhat skeptical of the idea of anyone having a well fixed mask.
    Have you ever read American Psycho?

    Oh, it's true of everyone - I just don't make comments about women, since I'm unlikely to ever court one. But in fairness, women are the same way.

    As for Masoch - I think his point was just as much that power is also a matter of bluffing. Remember towards the end, Sevarin wins Wanda back by threatening to kill her? And then loses her because she realizes that it was a bluff, and he's still as devoted as ever?
    -Grins-
    Crazy little fucking Slav.

    It might be even more pronounced in women - a woman is more focused on finding a partner who is absolutely fit. However, I don't believe that women are anywhere near as merciless when they sense weakness. Outside the novels of Masoch, who was not exactly -ahem- an impartial observer.
    The capacity for sustained cruelty is one of the things I admire about men. There's a reason we're the weaker sex. Even my attempts to become harsher always end up as appeals to Odin.

    I don't know if it does, but I do know that not having it makes you weak.

    No, but love is at heart a sexual drive. There's nothing shallow about this - most of our interactions with others are at bottom sexual needs. If it wasn't for our physical weakness making us a social animal, we'd all live like tigers and ignore each other until mating season.
    I think this is actually where we're going as a species.

    As for sex without love, I wouldn't know. I don't really feel much heat for a man just because he's attractive - I'd rather stay home and masturbate rather than get all sticky for someone that didn't move me intellectually. But then - I've never been much good with people at all. If I was a more social creature, I'm sure I'd feel different.

    I think so, but how many people have ever experienced this?
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2004
  19. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,879
    *Xev*

    Quote: Have you ever read American Psycho?

    Yes I have, what about it?

    Quote:It might be even more pronounced in women - a woman is more focused on finding a partner who is absolutely fit. However, I don't believe that women are anywhere near as merciless when they sense weakness. The capacity for sustained cruelty is one of the things I admire about men. There's a reason we're the weaker sex.

    Well yes I see what you mean and agree. I am very accepting of weakness in certain men; it softens me. Its within the male's capacity to be fully indifferent. Kinda sexy don't you think? When a woman displays this it's repelling.

    Quote: Even my attempts to become harsher always end up as appeals to Odin.

    LOL. Yes girl! Sweet!

    Quote:but I do know that not having it makes you weak.

    Okay well I cannot really oppose you there. Visciousness and pretense are useful but I can only display them when triggered; it's not my way of being. Its like the predatory instinct we speak of so often around here. Whereas many of you are like tigers ready to kill just because prey is available, I am more like a lion who only kills when threatened or hungry...and I am too well fed. Do I wish I were harder? Yes I do. I belong to three generations of 'hard', merciless and ruthless matriarchs. Don't have it in me, maybe switched at birth don't know but I could never display their resolve against feeling without breaking under its weight. My mother can extract a feeling from her being and chuck it in the garbage as if purposeless fluff. She is afterall the one who once said "With some people you just mentally cross them off your list, and it will be worse than if they were dead because you would remember the dead". Can't do it!

    Quote:No, but love is at heart a sexual drive.

    Yes but what about platonic love like that shared between friends and family?

    Quote:There's nothing shallow about this - most of our interactions with others are at bottom sexual needs.

    What about companionship? Sharing a laugh with someone, an idea, being nurtured, accepted, aided when in need? You know, sharing oneself with someone. If the fulfillment of sexual desire was all I needed from human interaction I would be one full momma and I'm not. Sexual interaction can sometimes leave one cold if it doesn't access other areas of ones imagination, psyche, emotions or spirit (the latter being the most difficult to find). Sex for the sake of it is great don't get me wrong, but we do have other needs. Its like with newborns, you can feed it, change the diapers and wrap it in warm clothing, but if it doesn't get physical nurturance, touch etc it will die.

    Quote: If it wasn't for our physical weakness making us a social animal, we'd all live like tigers and ignore each other until mating season. I think this is actually where we're going as a species.

    Ah geez...well hopefully I'll be dead by then or transformed into a cyborg.

    Quote: As for sex without love, I wouldn't know. I don't really feel much heat for a man just because he's attractive - I'd rather stay home and masturbate rather than get all sticky for someone that didn't move me intellectually. But then - I've never been much good with people at all. If I was a more social creature, I'm sure I'd feel different.

    There is another kind of chemisty that is pure sensation Xev and it has very little to do with intellectual passion. An attractive man? Nice but overrated. I have known a lot of beautiful bores in my time. One of the best lovers I ever had was an intellectual inferior. When we were together we rarely spoke, I couldn't form a sentence around the man...I mean nothing! There was a magnet between us of pure physical passion...I mean I could feel that mann from across the room; it was irresistable and POWERFUL! Absolute unadulterated chemisty. (Smiles) Honey the man was a god! I mean he must have been, how to explain such magnetism? Being too physically close to him was disastrous because I would overheat and melt, become drunk with sensation. Never had that kind of physical chemistry with someone before, but I swear it didn't penetrate any other level than physical passion. Jesus I get heated just thinking about it. It will happen to you too one day...(smiles)May odin be with you!

    Quote:I think so, but how many people have ever experienced this?

    I don't know but I have. I guess its a matter of qualia right? Those who have will understand you and those who haven't....
     
  20. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,062
    Fenris

    It's true it can feel like an addiction. I've noticed that when you move to a different place, away from anyone who knew you before, you can start anew. You can be anyone you want to be, re-invent yourself. When I left all behind I grew up basically. I realised that life was not going to be all rosey and peachy, I learnt that what I thought would have been was not to be. That for me was my rebirth. Actually, was a damn big shock to the system. At first I floundered as I tried to find myself and my own identity, but slowly it happened. I started to see life and things that mattered in a new light. I learned to appreciate so much. I found myself adoring the solitude it gave me. I realised during that time that I finally had power over myself and over my future (of course I did realise that I could die at any time but that only made it more exciting). I don't know if I'll get bored with my life at the moment, I'm enjoying it too much to get bored. But I'm not one of those people who get bored easily, but who knows what the future will bring. Fenris, you move because it feels right for you, and you'll keep on doing so until you find that you no longer have to move physically, but that your mind will grow and find itself so busy with life that you wont be bored. Who knows what the future will bring.

    One thing I've learned in life is that self doubt can be our biggest enemy. Never doubt yourself to such an extent that it stops you doing what you know deep down is right.

    Live for the day... lol.. cheesy I know but that's all anyone can do. Could it be that you're finding it difficult to move now because you possibly aren't as bored? That you're finding things about yourself and your own personal environment that isn't boring to you anymore? Sometimes the mind may just want to keep on going but the body just wants to settle and rest.

    Can I ask you, would you keep on moving if you found someone to share your life's experiences with? If he/she were willing to move with you, would you keep on moving? Life has a way of throwing you in the strangest places and it is usually in these places that you find what you so desire. And Fenris, one always has time for 'that sort of thing or opportunity', because without you even realising it, when you've met that someone you wish to share all with, you'll find that the time has come out of nowhere to allow you to share with them.

    But in a nutshell Fenris, you'll keep moving until deep down you'll know when to stop and settle in the one place. When that happens you wont feel bored, but you'll feel as though you have no reason to move or leave. In fact, if and when that time comes, you'll realise that you have nothing to move to because you'll have found yourself where you were meant to be.

    Lucysnow

    So true. Sometimes I crave solitude to find myself again. Sometimes I'm happiest when I'm completely alone. I'll tend to relax and not have to think about anyone else or anything for that matter. And you are completely correct. Being alone is the only time that I can actually re-balance my equilibrium. I find solitude peaceful and relaxing. I crave it sometimes and become a raving lunatic until I get it.

    Hmmm, that interests me. I'm the total opposite. I've come from 4 generations of lovely and caring women who feel so much and who are loving. I'm the absolute opposite of that. I am one of those people who can just never care or as your mother states, cross them off the list and forget about them. I don't think I take after my father either as he is a caring man. I on the other hand never seem to care. I am rarely forgiving and while I adore those I love and will fight to the death for them, I will however just turn and walk away never to look back if they wrong me in any way and I have done so in the past. My grandmother once told me when I was little that I was one who love with all my heart and hated with all my heart also.

    Xev

    True. Sometimes I think that it's because it could subconsciously remind us of our time in the womb or as small children. I smile when I read what you've said because I left somewhere that is known to get very cold and highly unpredictable and moved to a place that is more than sub-tropical. Now of course, as I find myself roasting in the damned warmth, I find myself dreaming of cold places where snow gathers outside my door.

    Again very true. And it is very possible and you're correct in saying that it can only happen with a certain sort of person. That person is one who is (and this will sound disgustingly corny and I do apologise in advance for it) basically a soul mate. A person who knows you as well as they know themselves and as well as you know yourself. It is only then that you can feel such a connection that communication can take place without words or actions.
     
  21. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,879
    *Bells*

    You miss the point...she couldn't be bothered to hate them.
     
  22. Xev Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,943
    Lucysnow:
    Indifference? Or the fact that they're not indifferent to you even though they can be?
    I guess most people find indifference charming. I think I'm in a minority that I don't. As for "certain males", I can't say I find weakness really repelling in any. Weakness is a necessary part of life - we're all vulnerable to a million things, from the attack of other humans to the microorganisms that swirl around us. Here we differ in that the "alpha males" leave me cold. I find myself drawn instead to outcasts, to artists and the rebels who are generally rather powerful, but spiritually so. In short, to those who are like me.

    Why? I guess it might be repelling to men - although the opposite seems to be the case, the more she doesn't seem to care, the more he's interested - but why does it repel you?

    I envy people like that.
    Not that I'm a complete pushover. I have, when pushed to the limits, simply cut people out of my life without a word. But even that was a product of knowing I'd be swayed to take them back if I was around them.

    I'll take your word for it, but the sensation is completely alien to me. I very rarely "feel" people.

    Bells:
    Like being submerged in water.
    Here it's spring for a change, but I know I'll be craving winter once summer rolls around. And summer when winter rolls around.

    You're right, that's disgustingly corny. (Kidding)
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2004
  23. WANDERER Banned Banned

    Messages:
    704
    Bells
    I agree, but I also think that this fear of abandonment and the loss of power can also be a result of past experiences that leads to cynicism rather than it being always the product of ignorance. There are two different types of fear: Experience based and ignorance based.
    I know for me that past experiences have made me weary and always expectant of negative repetition. So instead of finding the other innocent until proven guilty I begin with the starting premise that they are guilty until proven innocent. This makes me approach circumstances and people rather tentatively and I sometimes wind-up sabotaging the process of making connections.
    I also see it as my reaction against stressful new circumstances where I choose to find excuses to return to my past state of safety and comfort rather than take myself out of that safety zone by entering into new situations and allowing myself to be taken by the ebb and flow of chance occurrences.
    Being open to life and people means that you are willing to take the risk no matter what even though deep down in your heart you suspect that you’ll be disappointed or hurt again.
    For me this has been the hardest lesson to put into practice. I always pushed away people and situations just because I recognized the odds against them, but recently I’ve come to comprehend that in so doing I’ve also pushed away things that might have surprised me pleasantly rather than unpleasantly.

    I’ve sort of felt it a couple of times but not as deeply as I think it can be felt.
    It’s the feeling of being of one mind.
    I once mentioned it to a friend as being that feeling where you feel you are alone with someone in a group of other people and in opposite sides of the room. Your eyes just meet or you brush-up against each other and you instantly feel a non-verbal communication not shared with anyone else in the area.
    I can only guess that this is a consequence of a deep and profound intimacy and after trust and loyalty has been established and tested through some time period.
    Of course the added element of possessing the right chemistry and frame of mind is important.
    Idiots or superficial morons can never know what we are talking about here.

    I agree.
    For me the anxiety stems more from my inability to disappoint people I care for when it means following my heart.
    I have a high sense of responsibility, commitment and loyalty which makes me both monogamous and dependable but not always happy.

    It’s not so much packing-up and moving I have a problem with. One of the reasons I chose the name ‘Wanderer’ is because it fit well with the lifestyle I’ve lived so far.
    I immigrated to Canada when I was only 9 months old and after that I spent my entire life changing countries, cultures, homes, friends, jobs and so on.
    I’ve always been a recluse and an outsider because of it and I soon became comfortable as one, preferring my own solitude to the company of total strangers. That's why I turned inward and became interested in philosophy and psychology and the human condition in general.
    So I am used to changing environments and I actually enjoy it now. What I get stressed with is entering environments I haven’t completely evaluated, planned for and scouted out beforehand.
    I don't like surprises.
    So connecting with new people always means I have to spend large amounts of time exploring and analyzing them to find out if they are worthy of my honesty or capable of dealing and accepting my entire genuine self.

    Letting go in new environments is stressful and hard to do but not as much as letting go with people where you place your entire mental health in their hands and you expose your heart to their whims.
    Loving someone means offering them power over your inner world.

    I’m convinced that “soul mates” do exist, simply because people are not that complicated or as diverse as we may like to believe.
    Where I get cynical is in how possible it is to actually find one.


    Lucysnow
    Hell yea!!!
    I’m an ass-man all the way.
    That’s how women manipulate me, with their asses.

    I agree.
    Some, that are incapable of introspection, lose contact with that inner self and begin believing that the outer one is the actual one.
    That’s when you start associating self with external objects or other people.
    You begin judging self by what you own, what toys you play with, what clothes you wear, what job you do, how many sexual encounters or friends you have, how big your house is or expensive your car is, how large your muscles/breasts are, and how much money you have.
    You substitute self with outerwear.
    How many people do you know, men mostly that is, that drive a car as if it is an extension of their being, as if it represents who and what they are or how they would like you to perceive them as?

    Ok

    The funny thing is that the majority, who are weak-minded and superficial thinkers, will live an entire life wearing a mask and believing it is them.
    The genuine self is that person you were as a child before life mutated and corrupted it or made it flee into the depths to protect it’s self.
    What do we really mean by the word intimacy, if it is not that we seek out the right person with whom we feel comfortable enough and who can completely grasp our totality of being with little fear or anxiety?
    When we say we are intimate we don’t only mean having sex but we also want to mean being genuine and vulnerable and reverting back to that child we have locked up inside of us.
    That’s why we can only be completely intimate with our intellectual equals and never with inferiors.

    You hate that which made you suppress yourself to begin with.
    You hate that which made you run and hide.
    You hate that which keeps you hidden and afraid.
    Hate is a reaction against fear. We can only hate what threatens us.
    We also hate the fact that despite all the billions of people on this Earth we are forced to exist in solitude and in hiding.
    Beyond the inherit solitude of existence in general, the solitude of one that can only connect with a few others on its level and even then carefully because a high intellect does not necessarily mean a noble soul.
    That’s why I mentioned in my original thread here that monogamy for the noble becomes forced on them in many respects.
    Not only do you have a shrinking pool to choose from but from that pool you must find the right one for you and the one that will also accept you in turn in the same way.
    The odds? Astronomical.
    Most settle for whatever they can get or reconcile themselves with isolation or begin harvesting love affairs as if in a game where nothing really matters.
    But I refuse to believe that winning the lottery is impossible, no matter the odds.
    Hope is the last to die and without it life becomes unbearable.
    That is why as one grows older one becomes more cynical or willing to settle. The odds stack against you with every passing day.
    When you are young you have a lifetime ahead of you to hope and wait but when you get older you wonder if you shouldn’t have taken that one opportunity or if you shouldn’t have just reconciled with what was offered.

    This is because women buy and men sell….remember?
    It’s the woman that must accept the man first. The man simply offers her the opportunity by presenting himself to her to be accepted.
    Once the woman accepts the man, then and only then can the man accept the woman.
    Indifference in men is seen as a sign of confidence, in women it becomes a sign of disinterest.

    Sex is a piece of the entire act of intimacy.
    Most of us prefer to take what we can get when we can’t get everything.

    Sounds primal.
    But maybe this was only possible with one that couldn’t ruin the instinctual abandonment with words and inner thoughts?
    It seems like intellectualism destroys instinct or degrades it.
    You can’t completely engross yourself in something if you are thinking about it all the time.

    Xev
    Not culturally, biologically programmed.

    That’s why it’s sometimes ridiculous to listen to people that have always had their bellies full and their safety protected complaining about some trivial problem with their existence.
    You only truly appreciate something if you’ve lived without it or you’ve lost it along the way.
    Only the truly wise know what they have while they have it.
    It’s called living the moment.

    I agree with this.
    The complicated thing about human beings is figuring out to what extent a drive influences them or not.
    We all have the exact same drives but the strength of each drive within us varies and is determined by genetics, environment and experiences.
    You want to understand people? Look at yourself first.
    But you already know this.

    No, the root cause for everything is our own mortality and sex/love is the only answer to it. Death is the flame of life; without it everything becomes mundane and meaningless.
    Notice how as alternative methods of prolonging and creating life are discovered sex and love and intimacy become means of entertainment and ways of passing the time or simple products to use for a time and then discard for something new.
    Love has lost its wonder and intensity because sex is becoming obsolete as a means of reproduction. Nobody needs to remain faithful and loyal to one mate anymore because survival does not depend on it, as it used to. Love now, for most, is a simple word they fling around to mean they lust for someone and want to taste them for a while before they fall in love with another and want to taste them. There’s no immediate consequence to this behavior these days, beyond the loss of self-respect and the resulting feeling of emptiness that results from thinking and valuing everything based on their surfaces.
    Then we wonder why many turn to drugs and other escapist methods to deal with the loss of depth.
    There are no rites of passage; there is no interconnectedness, no spirituality to be found.
    So people turn to artificial means or run into cults and religions or ideals and ideologies.

    I’ve had sex without love and trust me, you aren’t missing much, except for that momentary release of energy.
    Afterwards you’re looking for the door and trying to find excuses to get away.

    The same can be said for feeding.
    In the past the act of eating meant something more than just filling ones stomach.
    The hunter shared his kill with those he was allied with, he gave thanks to the creature for giving its life for him to survive, he was given the choicest morsel as a token of appreciation and the whole affair was ritualized and made more profound. It meant something more than just feeding, it connected you to the very Earth.
    Nowadays we eat like pigs, we feed at the trough on the run, thoughtlessly with no appreciation or respect or ritual, except for those rare occasions when custom forces us to re-enact rituals we have little understanding of and no connection to.

    So you are drawn to ’alpha males’ albeit of your own special kind.
    Alpha maleness or femaleness isn’t defined by the absence of weakness it’s in how you deal with it.

    How can you feel anything when you wear body armor?
    You must take off your clothes to feel.

    Ah, the constantly dissatisfied human spirit, always craving for what it does not have.
    Life: the act of continuous craving.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2004

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