# Money as Debt: Private Central Reserve Banks, Usury and Fractional Reserve Banking

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by wesmorris, Aug 9, 2014.

1. ### wesmorrisNerd Overlord - we(s):1 of NValued Senior Member

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= Debt slavery for all?

I presume perhaps poorly that many will understand the nature of my notion with the key words of the thread title.

There's just so much bullshit to say about all of it that I don't know where to start. I'm curious though as to what some might say in regards to the simple question above, and perhaps one more question to start off:

Isn't this an inherently unsustainable system? I mean, extremely so?

It also seems to me that the inevitable conclusion is that it's basically a ginormous game of monopoly, wherein in the end, there can really be only one. But in order for that one or say few to sustain themselves they allow the game to continue by holding back from crushing everyone else playing, but really... all those bitches are owned.

No?

3. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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No, you have been hitting the right wing happy juice. Two, when you make the kind of statements you made you need to get more detailed. But I'm guessing that is beyond your paygrade. A good and meaningful discussion of debt is a bit more complicated than just repeating demagoguery.

5. ### wesmorrisNerd Overlord - we(s):1 of NValued Senior Member

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Ha.

No right wing happy juice I promise but you're right I didn't go into much detail because I'm not sure I can sort it all out without some prodding, or perhaps correction in my thinking. I have been watching way too many youtube videos on the rothschilds and international monetary conspiracy crap though.

Yea I just gave it a go and lack the energy to straighten myself out at the moment (and just erased my drivel without posting it).

I just thought I'd throw a loose, poorly constructed thought out and see what happens. If nothing else it bookmarks my need to formulate some clear questions.

Nice snark though. I suppose I asked for it.

Last edited: Aug 9, 2014

7. ### wesmorrisNerd Overlord - we(s):1 of NValued Senior Member

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You probably have things to do and scoff and shit like this, so scoff if you will. While I think this guy is a little cheesy, I've been wondering for some time how much of this type of presentation is utter crap: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypB_MdAc3ko

I don't care so much about the rothschild angle or whatever, but I'm curious as to the nature of money and if for instance, Lincoln's greenback experiment was actually "the right thing" were it not crushed by whatever. I tried to cross reference a few facts and most attempts for a private central bank seemed real. Many ominous, seemingly brave doods seemed to give dire quotes about the danger of a private central bank... etc. Whilst the air of consipiracy BS seems thick, I wonder if there's something truthful in the idea that government should create money debt free.

8. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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My apologies if you are not a right wing nut case. There are a lot of them out there these days, the unwitting zealous victims of misinformation. Your video is an example of such misinformation. Cental banks are not private institutions. They are agents of the central government. Their profits are turned over to the central government.

9. ### wesmorrisNerd Overlord - we(s):1 of NValued Senior Member

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bah, one small detail skips by me and I'm bothered for weeks. such a simple, crushing point. many thanks for dissolving that stupidity.

10. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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Joe actually called you and idiot and then gave you nothing other than his word, and you acquiesced without so much as a peep.

Government School
Keeping the Oligarch safe.
One mind at a time.

A few minor details about the Federal Reserve banking cartel.

The Federal Reserve Bank of New York Board argued in court they are NOT an agency of the Government (with full support The O-blah-ma Administration - you know, the "most transparent" administration in human history) the Reserve Banks themselves are privately owned by private citizens - of various countries.

From: The Federal Reserve's website
The Federal Reserve Board of "Governors" can and DID Bailout whomever they wanted to without ANY oversight by CONgress (not that those dumb-arses would know up from down, left from right). Here's some debt your children will pay by through their labor tax:

GAO report:

Citigroup - $2.513 trillion Morgan Stanley -$2.041 trillion
Merrill Lynch - $1.949 trillion Bank of America -$1.344 trillion
Barclays PLC - $868 billion Bear Sterns -$853 billion
Goldman Sachs - $814 billion Royal Bank of Scotland -$541 billion
JP Morgan Chase - $391 billion Deutsche Bank -$354 billion
UBS - $287 billion Credit Suisse -$262 billion
Lehman Brothers - $183 billion Bank of Scotland -$181 billion
BNP Paribas - $175 billion Wells Fargo -$159 billion
Dexia - $159 billion Wachovia -$142 billion
Dresdner Bank - $135 billion Societe Generale -$124 billion
"All Other Borrowers" - \$2.639 trillion

While we could go on and on I'll leave it to Thomas Edison to explain as he did in the New York Times:

But don't worry, this arrangement isn't going to change. All that's going to happen is the average American will get used to living poorer. Unlike in Joe's day, when mother's stayed home and raised families of 4 or 5, mother's today put their single child into long-term day 'supervision' centers so they can get to work paying the State and our Central Bankers in labor tax. They even get a 'credit' issued by the State to 'pay' for day supervision so they can get back to working, and paying, the State. Oh, and University? It's already too expensive for more 'middle class' Americans - well, that's OK, they can work in hyper-regulated fast-food chains or as greeters box-tops. Yup, good ole' Government School, ensuring each generation of suckers is dumber than the last. And that's the way it IS going to go. At least for the foreseeable future. More cannon fodder for the Murdertary more dependents on the State.

Best hope you're either working in Government, joined the Mudertary or are employed in one of the Too Big To Fail crony-corporations our Ruler's have vested interests in.

Hope you're enjoying the New Economy - it's here to stay.

11. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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Lol, do you ever read the crap you post or the material you post? Apparently not.

12. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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The Federal Reserve is LINKED to their own website. GAO report is the Government's official report. Sorry Joe, but your spamming tripe doesn't work here.

The fact is the Bankers that run this shit-hole of a country are cleaning house and they'll continue to do so because half of Amoorikkkans are too fat, and too stupid (1 in 5 are functionally illiterate) to know any better and they other half want in on the scam to live their dream life as slum-lords off the backs of the poor.

13. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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Lol, yes one of the URLs you cited did link to the Fed. Did you read what the link said? If you did you obviously didn't understand what you

"The Federal Reserve System fulfills its public mission as an independent entity within government. It is not "owned" by anyone and is not a private, profit-making institution.

As the nation's central bank, the Federal Reserve derives its authority from the Congress of the United States. It is considered an independent central bank because its monetary policy decisions do not have to be approved by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branches of government, it does not receive funding appropriated by the Congress, and the terms of the members of the Board of Governors span multiple presidential and congressional terms.

However, the Federal Reserve is subject to oversight by the Congress, which often reviews the Federal Reserve's activities and can alter its responsibilities by statute. Therefore, the Federal Reserve can be more accurately described as "independent within the government" rather than "independent of government."

The 12 regional Federal Reserve Banks, which were established by the Congress as the operating arms of the nation's central banking system, are organized similarly to private corporations--possibly leading to some confusion about "ownership." For example, the Reserve Banks issue shares of stock to member banks. However, owning Reserve Bank stock is quite different from owning stock in a private company. The Reserve Banks are not operated for profit, and ownership of a certain amount of stock is, by law, a condition of membership in the System. The stock may not be sold, traded, or pledged as security for a loan; dividends are, by law, 6 percent per year."

The "stock" is in effect a mandatory reserve. And the amount of stock which must be maintained with the Fed is 6% of the member bank's paid in capital stock (bank equity owned by bank investors). If member bank owner equity increases, the amount of money on deposit at the Fed (i.e. stock) increases. Conversely, if member bank owner equity shrinks, the member bank must sell reduce its Fed deposit by returning the stock to the Fed.

The Fed is an government agency. The Fed is run by a board of governors who are appointed by the POTUS and approved by the Senate.

And all of this has been repeatedly explained to you over many years. None of this new to you.

14. ### Arne Saknussemmtrying to figure it all outValued Senior Member

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So how much does this cartoon get right?

15. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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Actually, very little of the video is true.

16. ### Arne Saknussemmtrying to figure it all outValued Senior Member

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What can you tell us about the Rothschilds?

17. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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Why? They really are not relevant to any discussion related to the Fed or the American banking system.

18. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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What's 6% on 5 trillion Joe?
Who owns the stocks Joe?

Note, these criminals / "Banks" use the Federal Reserve System (that they run not) not only to destroy the economy - but then to bail themselves out once they did. They own more than just stocks in the reserve system - they own a lions share of the equities ballooning in value. Of course, when the bailout happened, it didn't use this generations assets and labor to make good on the bill. Nope, that's for the teenager Millennials to pick up along with their much lower standard of living as well as their kids and grandkids when they grow to working age.

Aren't your grandparents so thoughtful? Sticking you with yet another of their bills (along with their medical expenses)

But don't worry, there's not going to be an 'Economic Collapse'. That actually happened already, slowly, across decades. What's going to happen instead is the State ran Government certified Day Supervision Factory Kids, they're going to grow up into adults. Adults without good jobs. Adults without much privacy or freedom. Adults used to never ending war. Adults used to violence. Adults dependent on the State and naturally inclined to employ its use. They'll eventually gain control over the levers of power and they'll use the State to levy a 100% "tax" against their grandparents assets and then toss them into Progressive Retirement factories similar to the Day Supervision Factories they themselves were normalized in. And that's how this is going to end.

Thus the Banksters "Virtuous Cycle" is complete.

Enjoy the New Economy the Federal Reserve created for us - it's not going anywhere.

19. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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Denial isn't a river in Egypt. As previously explained, the"stock" is a required reserve. It conveys no ownership interest and no control as the governing board is appointed by the POTUS and approved by the Senate. And all Fed profits are transfered to the US Treasury. For the last few those profits have been close to 100 billion dollars per year.

The US banking system has functioned very well after the banking reforms implemented after The Great Depression.It was only after we began unraveling those regulations that we got ourselves in trouble again. It was pretty clear to me back in 1999 and 2000 when they began banking deregulation we were headed for another financial crisis.

This "new economy" has been growing, growing faster than it did under George Junior and adding more jobs than it did under George Junior. There are serious challenges a head us, but none of them are the Feds making. We face significant geopolitical challenges which have and continue to be a drag on our economy. And we face legions of rightwing domestic wing nuts who think draconian and profligate fiscal policies, including debt default, are good ideas. And those wing nuts have been and continue to be a drag on our economy.

20. ### wesmorrisNerd Overlord - we(s):1 of NValued Senior Member

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I fact checked what joe said and found it correct, at least according to the federal reserve website and one or two other sources. I still think the system is corrupt, possibly evil and rigged beyond belief, but I'm trying to wade through the bullshit to find the reality. Further, if one does not acquiesce to reason or fact, one is a fucking moron - regardless of whether they've been labeled as such. I actually like that video, but if the guy is leading into it with bullshit - it sort of takes the wind from its sails.

This one seems more like an attempt to report facts, but the problem is that motherfuckers reporting facts report the facts they think are fact but aren't necessarily factual. Further complicating matters as always is it would seem to get to the bottom of it would require years of shitty, boring, perhaps impossible research which itself could be tainted by the motherfuckers before us who wrote stuff they wanted people to believe. How the fuck one can know a goddamned thing about it seems to be only in the apparent result today - where to me the game seems really, really fucking rigged. Still whatever facts I think I find always seems skewed by someones agenda.

It seems to me though, that fractional reserve banking - though very appealing in many ways, particularly to a financier - is just wrong and creates a never-ending cycle of debt wherein banks win and everyone else loses. Especially with the condoned power to make loans which create checkbook money out of thin air at interest, and then being able to use that same debt as an asset for whatever other endeavors suit the banks needs.

21. ### wesmorrisNerd Overlord - we(s):1 of NValued Senior Member

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watching this:

right now. it seems more legitimate and surely speaks much truth, but how much? I'm not sure when or if I'll even obtain the means to know and find that fucking annoying.

22. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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Well the “system” is corrupt but not for the reasons you ascribe. Blaming the Federal Reserve is easy, because few people understand it, the value it brings to their lives, or macroeconomics. So it is easy to demagogue. The Federal Reserve is vital to the nation’s economic health and wellbeing. Today, people take it for granted that they bank they use will always have money and their money on deposit at the bank is safe. That was not always the case. And that is why the Federal Reserve was created.

This one seems more like an attempt to report facts, but the problem is that motherfuckers reporting facts report the facts they think are fact but aren't necessarily factual. Further complicating matters as always is it would seem to get to the bottom of it would require years of shitty, boring, perhaps impossible research which itself could be tainted by the motherfuckers before us who wrote stuff they wanted people to believe. How the fuck one can know a goddamned thing about it seems to be only in the apparent result today - where to me the game seems really, really fucking rigged. Still whatever facts I think I find always seems skewed by someones agenda.

It seems to me though, that fractional reserve banking - though very appealing in many ways, particularly to a financier - is just wrong and creates a never-ending cycle of debt wherein banks win and everyone else loses. Especially with the condoned power to make loans which create checkbook money out of thin air at interest, and then being able to use that same debt as an asset for whatever other endeavors suit the banks needs.[/QUOTE]

Well the “system” is corrupt but not for the reasons you ascribe. Blaming the Federal Reserve is easy, because few people understand it. So it is easy to demagogue. The Federal Reserve is vital to the nation’s economic health and wellbeing. Today, people take it for granted that the bank they use will always have money and their money on deposit at the bank is safe. That was not always the case. And that is why the Federal Reserve was created. Were it not for the Federal Reserve the nation’s economy would now in then dumbs, unemployment would be high and prospects for the future would be gloomy.

The real problem, the real corruption lies in Congress. Those responsible for that corruption use to the Federal Reserve as a scape goat and a decoy, as long as the public is fascinated by the Federal Reserve bauble they will never solve what ills them and the corruption will continue unabated. The Federal Reserve is being used as a lure to distract people from the real problems that vex their lives.

And the real problem lies in the halls of Congress. Take the case of Congressman Billy Tauzin, who while serving in Congress led the passage of Medicare Prescription Drug Bill. People were leaving the country to buy drugs in countries like Canada and Mexico to buy their drugs at much lower prices. That represented a real threat to pharmaceutical industry profits. The solution, get Uncle Sam to pay for prescriptions. After passage of the bill, Tauzin retired from congress and walked into a multimillion dollar job in the pharmaceutical industry lobbying congress. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/under-the-influence/

It was Congress which repealed banking laws that had kept our nation’s banking industry safe for nearly 70 years and led to The Great Recession of 2007-2009. The solution isn’t with the Fed, because the Fed isn’t the problem. The solution is in changing the way we elect our public officials and the ethics and behavior we expect of them once elected. We need to take the special interest money out of our elections. That is how you stop getting screwed, and you are indeed getting screwed in more ways than you know. But as long as you are out chasing shinny baubles, you are no threat to those who are screwing you.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/jack-abramoff-the-lobbyists-playbook-30-05-2012/

23. ### wesmorrisNerd Overlord - we(s):1 of NValued Senior Member

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Joe, FRACTIONAL RESERVE, not federal - and your quotes got jacked.

yeah i'm aware that congress is bought and paid for. I wonder who buys them. I think a lot of bankers own them. It's the circle of fuck, u. *sigh*

and i'd say that more fundamentally the real problem is conflict of interest and that something seeming so obvious is so very, very prolific throughout governbusiness.

- afterthought-

i suppose it's "confluence of interest" from the perspective of the asshats who gloss it over. perhaps "aligned interests". fuckers.

Ethics, which seem so intuitive to me and perhaps even the majority of people... is simply counter-intuitive to those who seek dominion.