I spoke with my 16 year old at the weekend about this debate and she says that once when she pushed her younger sister and made her cry I retaliated by pushing her (tooth for a tooth principle). She said she remembered being angry with me for a week, but neither of us felt that using force seemed to solve anything. However, she did admit that the most effective means of control seemed to be purely my tone of voice.
My Dear Fellow Human Beings, Fellow Chilren, Fellow Future-Parents and Grand-Parents, Fellow Teachers, Fellow Neighbors, Fellow Brothers and Sisters: Here is a clip from the Religious Forum which was posted under the topic "Revisiting the Ten Commandments - With Love." It is a discussion of the modern-day application of the fourth commandment which addresses honoring others in the "family". I thought some people might find it relevant to this discussion. Enjoy! THE FOURTH COMMANDMENT: "Thou Shalt Honor Thy Father and Thy Mother." When we discuss the Fourth Commandment we are essentially speaking of "family". To speak of "family" is in some way always addressing society in general - since society at large is no more than a composite of the families within a community. Despite the changing patterns of family life - throughout the history of mankind, the family has remained in all civilizations and cultures throughout the entire recorded period of man's history (and, one suspects, long before recording began) the family has been and remains even now the cornerstone of society. It is relatively safe to say that the health of any society can be measured by the general condition of family life within it. Healthy family life usually signifies a healthy society, a healthy culture. Each of us is the product of a home and family. Even those of us who grow up in some measure abandoned or orphaned are in some way the product of family - family fantasized, family adoptive, family desired. But family is and remains the norm. Our lives have been shaped, marked and formed by the family life we experienced...or the lack of it. It is not surprising, therefore, to insist that the Fourth Commandment has a profound significance for each of us as individuals and for society at large. When the commandment was given (in the Book of Exodus) the background of the history and purpose of the Law was the intense love and friendship of God for His people: "...so that you may have a long life in the land that the Lord your God has given you." The Israelites had a very strong sense of being "a people," "The Chosen People," "The People of the Law," "The People of the Book." It was God's wish that it be so - it was the function of most of the ritual observances laid down later in the Bible to build this sense of "differentness" and bring them to a consciousness of "being different." The commandments themselves are expressions of the covenant which bound them, both to Yahweh and to the community of Israel itself. In the same way that the first three commandments have to do with God Himself, the remaining seven have to do with the community He had established by this covenant, and with the relationships between and among His people. As the first three say "Give to God the place that is rightfully His," the remaining seven say "Give to each person the place that is rightfully his/hers." The Fourth Commandment was the commandment of the covenanted people, the commandment of community....the commandment which ordered the people to BE a community. What is the deepest central meaning behind this commandment, the element which endured and would be valid for the people of all ages and every nation throughout time? God has linked the lives of each of us with all other men. There is no such thing as a "private sin," or a "private virtue" in that we can have elements of our lives that have no impact on the lives of others. There ARE no sins we can commit by which we "are hurting nobody but ourselves." We must, therefore, permit people to be what God wishes them to be for us. We are not to make those determinations for Him. We must also be, for ourselves as well as for the benefit of all others, whatever it is that God has wished for US to be. The core value is RESPECT. RECOGNIZE AND RESPECT THE PLACE THAT OTHERS HAVE IN YOUR LIFE....not only those people and places that we find pleasant to our tastes. For the Israelite, honor for father and mother was a realistic and practical expression of that respect. It fit into the social pattern of life as it was then known. Since that time, society has changed a great deal, not always for the better. Both the patterns of life have changed, and the significance of relationships. We live in a complex society. We belong to many different groups: family, the work team, the town, city, parish, club, bowling league, volunteer fire company. In the meantime, something has happened, something of profound significance for the People of God, for the lives of people living together. The great reality of the community of God's Kingdom has come among us. The Fourth Commandment points to the sanctifying power of human relationships, such as those between parents and children, employer and employee, elected official and citizen, pope and laity, teacher and student. We are all part of the New Israel. We are all part of a new community, a community of believers and non-believers gathered together into unity and oneness. There is a wide range of gifts accorded each of us, but there is only one Spirit who works in each of us for the benefit of all. The togetherness of the Gospel is now the channel of God's redeeming grace. So, respect means a good deal more than simple reverence and obedience toward the head of the family. It means, instead: "Listen. Listen to all those whom God has given to you in your life. In a word, this commandment enshrines *listening*. Listening to one another." No relationship stands simply on the right of authority to command and the duty of submission and obedience from the rest. The primary relationship is that of persons who have been drawn together by the unifying Spirit of God, who works differently in each of us, for the benefit of all of us. The primary duty we each have, in the light of all our relationships taken all together, is to listen. To listen to what it is that God is telling us through all those whom He has placed in our lives. Parents are not parents merely because they have a God-given right to command; nor are children only children because they have an equivalent duty given by God to obey. In the New Covenant, there is more to it than that. A parent can and should command, but only if he or she has first listened to the child. A parent may say "are you serious? How do you listen to a gurgling infant or to the childish prattle of a five-year- old, or to the tantrums of a fifteen-year-old?" The point I'm trying to make is that the parent has to try to listen to what is growing in the child, not to the words of the child. The cry for love, the cry to be assured of love, the hunger to know what things are, to know the meaning of life, what to do and how to do it -- these are the significant things behind the gurgling, the prattling and the tantrums. And through the years there is the longing to become independent, to accomplish something worthwhile in life. The child will usually listen - if the parents have listened first. We are all part of a group. Children cannot grow to full adulthood alone. God has so arranged it that they need the love, guidance, and direction of parents if they are to grow properly. Children should obey, to be sure; but obedience will be fruitless if all it is is submission, if they do not first listen to the concern and the greater wisdom of their parents. In this sense, home may be described as a place where everyone listens and where everyone is listened to. Authority will be respected and honored, or spurned and mocked, depending on the fairness and wisdom with which it is exercised. [As testified to above]. There are two extremes to be avoided - as are, indeed, all extremes. A repressive, overly severe use of parental authority where parents fail to listen and become unreasoning, unreasonable and inflexible; and, what is perhaps an even greater danger today, a too permissive and too passive attitude on the part of parents. When children are allowed to do whatever they like, when parents seem not to care where children go or with whom, there is another failure in real listening. Why? Because parents fail to listen to what their children need and to what is growing in them. The listening spoken of here in the context of family must touch all other groups as well. It should touch the school, the workplace, the Church. It should touch even the relationships between and among nations themselves. This doesn't happen nearly often enough. In educational, industrial and in international relationships, all too often only force is listened to, only personal gain is attended to or heeded. Negotiation becomes a sparring match, a means by which to gauge another's weakness. We live in a society filled with calculated deafness. There should be no such thing as an "entrenched position." That is, a position which pretends to be self- sufficient, able to meet all eventualities alone and without assistance or accompaniment. There is no position so right that it can afford to close itself off to all others. In the grand scheme of things, each gift, good in and of itself, must work together with the other gifts, given to others. Embrace each other. Respect and appreciate each other's differences and position in life. Realize that we are here FOR each other. Honor each other. With Love, Michael
Bowser, Don't you think that you're overgeneralizing here? "Hitting is how mommy solves problems"? Give me a break. You sound like a church person. You are telling me that your toddler could have destroyed your camera, and you rewarded her by playing with her? So what's she gonna do for attention when she gets to be 18 and you're "ignoring" her? You'll be surprised. Apparently I can thank you, as I'm sure others would like to as well, on behalf of all the times that I have been in restaurants and grocery stores and movies, or over a friend's for dinner, or on the phone with a friend, and their child is ranting and raving and crying and whining, "Mommymommymommymommymommymommymommymommymommymomm!!!!!!!" And mommy's sitting there enjoying dinner or picking out groceries or talking like it's f'ing backgound music or something. Thanks a lot, it's been such a pleasure. Why is it that you had to get off the computer AT HER DIRECTIVE, when she decided to do something bad? What in the world is that supposed to teach a kid? That if daddy isn't doing what they want, all they have to do is misbehave, and he'll snap right to it? Brilliant. And sherlock, don't be such an extremist. I do NOT solve problems by hitting. I'm talking about a swat or a punishment that gets a kids attention and let's them know who is in charge. I didn't say that it was supposed to hurt, and I didn't say that it was a replacement for discussion and reasoning and attention. And your example about the corporal punishment in school cracks me up. I'm sorry, but what a wussy!!! LOL! Hey Einstein, no one said that parents had to be perfect before they were entitled with the responsibility of raising and teaching kids right from wrong, and teachers included while at school. So you think that just because you were swatted unfairly that makes swatting obsolete in general? That's silly. And you let that spur a disrespect for authority in you? Why would you do that? That's SELF-destructive. It's called reason, check into it. You and Tiassa both are following this whole, I'm scared I might make a mistake, or be imperfect, so inaction is the only path. Frozen by fear huh? Typical man. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.
Lori-- C'mon Lori ... you can do better than that. I mean, really. You can do better. Haven't I already heard this about Jesus? I mean, if I start adding it up, if I'm not you I'm a coward. Okay ... no matter how you cut it, swatting, spanking, or any of those mincing terms comes down to a parent directing a physical impact against the body of a child. When this is how Mother obtains her desire, what does this teach the child about obtaining desires? I'm just curious--aside from the cost of the unit, what does it matter if the child breaks a camera? Really? I should mention here that, had the cat knocked the camera off the shelf, my own father would have yelled at me for leaving the camera where the cat could knock it down. My cat can't count past three, or else doesn't care about that many things. I'm quite sure that Bowser's daughter can count at least that. But that doesn't mean she understands the Tax Code. Well, I dunno ... Bowser? Of the punishments that I truly recall, there were actually some that I remember only because the punishment followed some act that counted as legendary in the terms of my childhood. Otherwise, retrospect tells me that the element of the situation I generally missed was either ficticious (which trait does seem to plague parents, but that's just an observation of my own), or--and this is the really important one--based on something that (Hello?) nobody had ever bothered to let me know. But it was 'cuz they loved me! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Literally. Spanking is senseless violence. It begets violence. These days I wonder why it's so damn tough to avoid fights when things get rough in a club. I do it, but it seems it should be easier. Of course, I was raised in a culture that settles things with fists, knives, and guns. So maybe spanking's a good thing--it gets the kid used to being smacked around in life. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)
<font color = "red">"Don't you think that you're overgeneralizing here? 'Hitting is how mommy solves problems'?"</font> Children generalize the World around them. <font color = "red">"Give me a break. You sound like a church person. You are telling me that your toddler could have destroyed your camera, and you rewarded her by playing with her? So what's she gonna do for attention when she gets to be 18 and you're "ignoring" her? You'll be surprised."</font> The message was that, to me, she was more important and that I understood her needs. <font color = "red">"Apparently I can thank you, as I'm sure others would like to as well, on behalf of all the times that I have been in restaurants and grocery stores and movies, or over a friend's for dinner, or on the phone with a friend, and their child is ranting and raving and crying and whining, "Mommymommymommymommymommymommymommymommymommymomm!!!!!!!" And mommy's sitting there enjoying dinner or picking out groceries or talking like it's f'ing backgound music or something. Thanks a lot, it's been such a pleasure..?"</font> Lori, what do you want from a little kid? They are not born adults. Give them what is theirs--childhood. My kids' behaviors are normal for their ages. You want me to punish them for that. How often do children cry around you? <font color = "red">"Why is it that you had to get off the computer AT HER DIRECTIVE, when she decided to do something bad? What in the world is that supposed to teach a kid? That if daddy isn't doing what they want, all they have to do is misbehave, and he'll snap right to it? Brilliant."</font> If it helps her grow up learning respect for herself and her children, I will give her the extra attention. The computer can wait, the camera can be replaced, my children are invaluable and worth every moment of consideration that I can offer them. ------------------ It's all very large.
Lori, I have to agree with the others on this. I feel that no matter how "soft" or "hard" a simple spank on the butt is..it's still physical and not a very good message sent to the child. Honestly, to strike a child in any manner as a form of punishment is a LAZY method for discipline. Why do you think that a physical strike is the most efficient method? Also, "spare the rod and spoil the child" is not what you take it to mean. I have gone back and found a site that supports what I have been taught regarding this misunderstood/misquoted scripture-see below: What Does Spare the Rod and Spoil the Child ReallyMean? What’s the meaning behind the misquoted proverbial saying, ‘Spare the rod and spoil the child,’ and does this Bible verse really advocate the beating of children? To begin with, this “verse,” as quoted, isn’t in the Bible. A verse like it is Proverbs 13:24 which reads, “Those who spare the rod, hate their children, but the one who loves their child disciplines them diligently.” The question is, what was the use of the rod, and is it a directive or a metaphor? The use of the word rod in this passage is the same one used in the 23rd Psalm where we read, “Your rod and your staff comfort me.” We may rightfully assume that the rod of a shepherd is at least similar in type and use to that in the proverb. I’ll be the first to admit that I’ve heard variations of this proverb used by both clergy and laity alike to justify corporal punishment, but the use of the rod by shepherds did not generally include beating the sheep. The fact is, the rod and staff were the two implements utilized by professional shepherds of the day. The staff and rod with its “crook” or “hook” on the end was used to stop running sheep, help pull sheep up from rocky places when they’d fallen over, and so on. The rod was also used when corralling the sheep to insure they went in the direction they were supposed to go. It wasn’t used to prod or poke, but to direct along the length of the shaft. Now, sheep were a valuable asset for the shepherd; indeed, without the sheep there would be no shepherd, so the flocks were well taken care of. In fact, a damaged or maimed sheep was a liability, since it was considered tamé, Hebrew for polluted or impure. This being the case, the shepherd who owned their sheep took good care of them and used the tools of their trade as they were meant to be used--to guide, to direct, and to teach (the literal meaning of discipline). However, there were scoundrels who were simply hired to look after the sheep. They had little concern over the welfare of the animals, so they would use their tools in whatever way suited them. These were the ones who might lose their tempers and beat a lamb with a rod just to demonstrate they were more powerful and could force their will upon it. Children are no less valuable than sheep, and they learn better too! If a sheep is consistency directed, that is given structure or boundries and taught, they will learn what is expected and generally conform. However, if they are beaten and broken they not only stop responding, but they look for every opportunity to escape--even when escape may mean grave danger. To “spare the rod” is indicative of a parent who does not discipline their child, that is, to teach, guide, and direct. This is the parent who “hates their child.” To spare the rod doesn’t mean a parent should beat down their children into submission, rather they are to be like shepherds who value and care for their charges and keep them from danger by using the tools of good parenting to teach responsible behavior and appropriate morality. [This message has been edited by Flash (edited April 18, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Flash (edited April 18, 2000).]
Flash, That was good. I suspect there have been many people from past times, the brutal Victorian era for example, who have used this misquoted biblical phrase to justify their desire for physical dominance over the young, and we are left with the unfortunate legacy. If ever I had any doubt about whether to punish children using physical force then this interesting insight that you have revealed has put the final nail in the needless violence coffin. Thanks. Cris PS. You have been quiet recently – burnt out? And thanks for you past support, although it wasn’t the type of solution I would have wanted and was really quite sad, it is as if a fire has gone out and the BB has cooled down. Take care.
I'm currently researching 'determinism' for a religious thread and came across this web reference. The majority of the article deals with child abuse, parental control, punishments, parental neuroses, etc. http://www.determinism.com/determinism2.shtml It more or less says that no one is really responsible for their actions and that we are all innocent and no one deserves any type of punishment.
Cris, Good to hear from you! I'm glad you enjoyed the post. I guess this is kind of one of my pet peeves...regarding physical discipline. Yeah, I've been burned out a bit so thought I'd kind of give things a rest... No need to thank me...you're welcome. I do agree that it was very sad news...I hated to hear it. Take care of you, Flash
