Misogyny, Guns, Rape and Culture..

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Bells, Jun 2, 2014.

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  1. tali89 Registered Senior Member

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    You can't complain about supposed trolling or being misconstrued when the beliefs you hold are internally inconsistent. You claim that you don't have a problem with advising women on how to prevent rape, but then in the same breath claim that doing so is a form of rape apologism because it places the onus on the woman. I think it's reasonable to say that society can implement measures to prevent and punish acts of rape, while women also adopt measures to reduce their exposure to predators who slip through the cracks. These two actions aren't mutually exclusive.
     
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  3. Capracus Valued Senior Member

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    As I remember your rapist was able to enter your home as you slept because your security system failed to alert you. If this man had stolen property or kidnapped one of your children, would you still be satisfied with your admitted inadequate security measures? Which are ultimately whose responsibility?

    I don’t assume women to be stupid until they’ve shown themselves to be so. No one’s telling you how to behave or live, only presenting you with alternatives. You’re free to be as informed or ignorant as you please.

    No, I believe it’s unreasonable for someone to expect ideal behavior in society when present conditions do not favor it. Until conditions do favor it, men and women will have to personally and collectively do what they are able to minimize their potential risk.

    While we’re on the subject of such epidemics, let’s not forget about infants who rape adults, pets who rape their masters or masters who rape their pets.
     
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  5. Bells Staff Member

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    In other words, it is my responsibility to not be raped.

    Which is where I find your rape prevention ideology galling.

    Instead of putting the onus on my rapist to not break into my home to rape me as I slept, you just literally placed it on me because my "security system failed to alert" me after the moronic remarks about whose responsibility if would have been if he had kidnapped my children instead after bypassing my apparent failed security system. Aren't you the one who also queried why I wasn't sleeping with my phone with me or something and went on about rape prevention of that as well? Or was that another "rape prevention" advocate? It is this kind of drivel that places the responsibility on women to not be raped which is the entire problem on rape prevention ideology today.

    My rapist was not a stranger, but one who has known me for a number of years, knew my dog and knew how to bypass everything around my home because he was my former brother-in-law. He knew my children were not going to be there, he knew I was home sick because he had called my former sister-in-law who informed him that I had my ex husband take the children that day because I was so sick with the flu. He knew where to climb over the 6ft+ walls surrounding my house and how to bypass the security door at the side of my property, where my bins were kept so he could climb over with ease and since he knew the dog and the dog knew him, the dog did not bark. Short of living like a hermit and never being in the company of any males, which would have been the best security, how viable do you think this option is?

    It wasn't my security system that failed me. It was my rapist who failed me by raping me.

    Can you tell the difference? Do you understand the difference?

    So by commenting about my home security system and then commenting on what if he had taken my children and the snide remarks about whose responsibility it really was, you aren't telling me how to live my life? You aren't blaming me for having "failed" my responsibility to prevent my own rape? My, your language is almost identical to Troopers. You two match each other so well.

    Rape is hardly something to be glib about.

    I'm sorry, if you are going to consistently refuse to read what people post, then perhaps you should start a blog and hope people read your posts. If you are going to refuse to even acknowledge what people write without misrepresenting it, then you can take your trolling self elsewhere.
     
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  7. Trooper Secular Sanity Valued Senior Member

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    Well said, tali89!

    Welcome to sciforums. Glad to have you on board.
     
  8. Trooper Secular Sanity Valued Senior Member

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    Nope. I agree with you on this one. The ultimate goal is to break free.

    I never said that victims were irresponsible. I said it was irresponsible to not provide them with information on how to reduce their risk.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2014
  9. Capracus Valued Senior Member

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    We “rape prevention advocates” agree that your rapist failed you, and that society failed you, but you need to acknowledge that there are ways that we fail ourselves in these circumstances. We have more power to address our own inadequacies than those of the rapist or society, so shouldn’t we fist start with ourselves?

    Do you consider yourself to be some infallible perfect creation that couldn’t possibly have erred in their risk prevention? Are you not human like the rest of us?


    Then advise your neighbor to get a clue.
     
  10. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Once again, your ignorance is showing... specifically the "cabana girl" comment (one, learn to spell, two, I'm not a girl so... yeah)

    No, I'm not saying to deny anyone the facts. At the same time, I'm not saying we should shove them in their face, then try to use them to BLAME someone who has had a horrible crime committed against them just because they supposedly didn't follow them correctly.

    Now, kindly pull your cranium out of your anal sphincter and quit the holier than thou attitude while you are at it... you are smelling less and less like a new member and more and more like the sockpuppet I believe you to be (or did you actually recently travel from Alvorada Brazil to Kota Bharu Malaysia) (then again, it is also interesting to note that your IP Addresses are also blacklisted on several forums as "spam IP's" so... yeah...
     
  11. Trooper Secular Sanity Valued Senior Member

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    Tali89’s comment was applicable.

    Remind me again, Kitt, why you didn't find RAINN's suggestions helpful?
     
  12. Bells Staff Member

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    And I have never said that men or women should not be taught self defense.

    There is a difference between learning self defense and rape prevention.

    Rape prevention ideology needs to address the fact that women, and men for that matter, are more likely to be raped by people they know and it does not. It sets up these rules and suggestions of how to prevent being raped and in doing so, lays the responsibility to prevent being raped squarely at the feet of women by commenting on the behaviour of women. And that to me is wrong. Continuing to push women preventing rape as though it is their responsibility to do so means that true rape prevention, that of rapists not raping, takes a back seat. Worst of all, it sets up this false sense that if they follow it to the letter, if they stop living their lives, stop going out, stop living as they were used to living, that they are somehow safe from rape. You aren't. Rape prevention ideology and advice that you find everywhere is always aimed at stranger rape. It doesn't aim to educate women on what to do if their husband rapes them in their own bed at night. But the absolute worst of all is that it does not focus on stopping rape or rapists. It focuses on women's behaviour to stop rape and not the rapist's behaviour.

    Instead of focusing on what women are doing, the focus should be on what rapists are doing. It's not the behaviour of women that is the problem. It is the behaviour of rapists that is the problem. Rape prevention needs to focus on potential rapists. And it isn't doing that.

    I am all for self defense, education, awareness programs. I think it should be part of school curriculum for both boys and girls. And it also needs to prepare and educate both sexes about the realities of rape and sexual assault. That it is not acceptable or right and what constitutes as rape and/or sexual assault.

    However this is not the case.

    The majority of the programs are aimed at women to get them to prevent being raped. The absolute minority is aimed at potential rapists themselves. It is rare to see any rape prevention program aimed at potential rapists. Rape prevention just about everywhere, spends more time focusing on how women behave, instead of focusing on the behaviour of the rapist. And to me, that is warped.

    The anti-rape posters should be telling potential rapists that 'just because she is drunk and unconscious, does not mean yes', instead of telling women and girls to 'not get drunk if they want to avoid being raped'.
     
  13. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    I did not "fail" myself in the circumstance that led to my being raped. I was in my home, asleep when someone broke onto my property, entered my home and violently raped me.

    I have not failed in anything in that regard.

    To suggest that I need to acknowledge the ways in which I failed myself in such a circumstance is placing the blame and responsibility on me. There is no "but" there.

    I was not the one who was inadequate in failing to acknowledge or recognise how I could have or should have prevented my own rape.

    The only person who is fully and absolutely responsible for raping me is my rapist.

    In no way have I failed, was inadequate in any way, shape or form. At all.

    And your suggestion that I bore responsibility, that I failed myself in "these circumstances" or that I failed to address my so called inadequacies as opposed to the man who raped me is exactly the reason why I find rape prevention advocates such as yourself to border on rape apologist. To say that I have more power to address my inadequacies in the circumstances around my own rape than my rapist or society does, is, to be perfectly honest, obscene. To claim that I should start with myself and my so called failure to prevent my own rape, when someone decided to break into my home to rape me while I slept and to then say that I have more power to address my inadequacies than the rapist being able to address his inadequacies places the blame and responsibility on me to have prevented my rape while making excuses for my rapist.

    Perhaps you should start with yourself and some introspection about your belief that rape victims failed or were inadequate and try to educate yourself on how your words is tantamount to victim blaming and victim shaming.

    I need to ask. At what point are you going to stop making excuses for the man who raped me and at what point are you going to stop blaming me and trying to shame me for failing to prevent my own rape as I slept in my own home?

    Are you aware that you are the perfect example of a rape apologist and that what you are doing is victim shaming and blaming the victim and placing the responsibility on the victim instead of on the rapist?

    Let me reiterate something for you..

    I have absolutely no responsibility or blame in my rape. I was not inadequate in preventing my rape. Nor did I fail myself.

    The only person responsible and who is 100% to blame for what happened to me is my rapist. My home security is not to blame, nor am I to blame in any way, shape or form, nor was I inadequate or failed or erred in any form of risk prevention. The only "fail" is my rapist.

    I believe it is you who needs to get a clue.
     
  14. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    8,000
    Good ponts... an so its perty obvous that male rape victims are bein largely ignored;;; no tellin how many men are bein raped but keep silent about it.!!!
    More emphases needs to be givin to the plight of the male... so they will at least receive the attention women get an have the options women have.!!!
     
  15. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    4,201
    I wouldn't like being called a sausage either, Kitt...

    Noun[edit]
    kabana (plural kabanas)

    1. (Australia) A spicy smoked Australian salami, made from pork and beef

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  16. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    you may not have said but you damn well implied it.
     
  17. Bells Staff Member

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    Definitely.

    There was an excellent article about the prevalence of male rape earlier this year in Slate. And it focused on how as a society, people tended to shy away from the subject, finding it distasteful or calling it something else. When the figures came in about just how prevalent it was and just how under-reported it was, many feminists took note and compared it to how rape is perceived in society and most importantly, in the justice system and even how rape is recorded and how those figures are collated. And it is abhorrent at how male rape victims were literally left off the charts because of how the legal system defined "rape". And what is even more disturbing is the fact that prison rape victims (where males and boys are raped in prisons, jails and juvenile detention centers) are not even counted or factored in to those figures. The result of this is the lack of support and even legal recourse for so many male rape victims. If you think it's bad for women, where as RAINN notes that it is only 5% of rapists end up in prison, the figure is most definitely lower if the victim is male.

    The article: http://www.slate.com/articles/doubl..._reveals_that_men_are_sexually_assaulted.html

    I would strongly recommend everyone to read it.

    Rape culture is not just about female victims. It encompasses all victims of sexual assault because it deals directly with how little society even considers rape to be a problem and often makes excuses for rapists. If you want a good example of that, just consider how people view the very thought of prison rape and the criminal being raped in prison. Or how many do not even think that a woman forcefully performing fellatio on a man against his wishes is a bad thing.
     
  18. Trooper Secular Sanity Valued Senior Member

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    Nope, I was very clear.

    Risk-reduction messaging is an important component of crime prevention overall. This approach has significantly contributed to reducing the number of violent and property crimes. It has a similar value in sexual violence prevention.


    It’s a collective effort to protect ourselves, our families, and other citizens.
     
  19. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,893
    This is a human rights issue.

    • At what point does the rape "prevention" advice become a quality of life issue?​

    To wit, at what point does telling women to plan on being assaulted no longer make sense to you?

    You might notice how hard it is for people to answer the question.
     
  20. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    16,479
    and there you go proving my point. yes your very clear on ideology that doesn't make your hatred of victims and your blaming their assualts of them any less reprehensible. you have continuelly proven to be pathologically incapable of accepting the ramifications of your demands. your ego truly asstounding. I'm not some peasant you can condcend to from your throne of superority. I'm one of the victims your blaming.
     
  21. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    8,000
    What do you thank is the root cause of this rape culture.???
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2014
  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    What It Comes To

    Yes, this is apparently what it comes to.

    For months, a slice of the gaming subculture has waged a campaign of online harassment against prominent women in the videogame industry, including game developers Zoe Quinn and Brianna Wu and feminist critic Anita Sarkeesian. The reasoning behind the targeting of these women is too batshit to unspool here—if you're interested in falling down the rabbit hole, Deadspin has a decent primer on "Gamergate"—but what's clear is that some people just don't like seeing women play, design, and discuss video games, and seek to punish them with "virtual" violence.

    Quinn has previously detailed how her online critics have spread revenge porn, harassed her family, and released her personal information in an attempt to terrify and silence her. Last Saturday, Wu fled her home after an online stalker posted her address and threatened to rape and kill her in a series of gruesome tweets. And this week, administrators at Utah State University received an anonymous email threatening to carry out "the deadliest school shooting in American history" if they went through with a planned campus event featuring Sarkeesian; she cancelled the talk over Utah's gun laws, which prevent the school from banning concealed firearms at the event ....

    .... But it's rare for incidents of online harassment to spark a federal investigation at all. "It was never a matter of not caring," Ryan told me of working on the cyber squad, but "the volume of work coming in every day was absolutely staggering. We had to do triage, almost as if we were in a war zone, deciding which patients to treat first." Cases that posed a serious risk of physical harm or a significant loss of property were prioritized, as were threats to children. When agents are busy investigating operating child pornography rings, they don't have the bandwidth to look into casual threats against adults. (And if the investigations are unlikely to be successful, they sink further down the list.) In addition, Ryan told me, agents might choose to investigate high-profile incidents—those involving celebrities or newsmakers—that they think might create "a deterrent effect" for similar crimes. Perhaps the Gamergate harassment has risen to that level: Some of the threats against Sarkeesian are being investigated by the FBI.


    (Hes)

    Let us be clear: It wouldn't come to terrorism except for the prevalence of misogynistic ideas within the gaming culture.

    So let's be cold, calculating capitalists for a moment.

    Female gamers are a generally untapped market.

    Women are underrepresented in software development and design.

    The industry itself has rational reason to want to change that. In order to get those new gamers, they need products to pitch to them. In order to develop products attractive to the market sector, they must understand the market sector.

    And this is sort of a unique nexus of circumstances insofar as it's not just the ratios; it's also a set of cultural attitudes and permissions within the circumstantial culture that has arisen around software development and gaming. Because on this occasion, the majority part of that ratio demonstrably does not understand the market sector. The influence of permissive attitudes about functionally misogynistic behavior is what drives this functional, fundamental inability to comprehend the market sector.

    So, yeah, the industry has a need to cultivate the next generation of female developers and gamers. Yet this is the sort of resistance it will run into. And, yes, the FBI will get involved when it rises to the level of terrorism.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Hess, Amanda. "A Former FBI Agent On Why It's So Hard to Prosecute Gamergate Trolls". Slate. October 17, 2014. Slate.com. October 18, 2014. http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_facto...rd_to_prosecute_the_people_targeting_zoe.html
     
  23. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    A variety of things.

    From entitlement culture, where people believe they are entitled to have what they want, when they want it and their victims are not worthy of consideration in the equation, to the trivialising of rape and the shaming of victims (consider how many times you have seen or heard prison rape comments or jokes), to the belief that it is up to the victim to prevent being raped or are responsible for their own rape because they believe it is their behaviour which caused them to be raped, to ownership culture (this is especially the case for female victims), to the denial of rape or denial that rape is even a problem or refusal to accept what is or isn't rape (some still cannot accept that marital rape is "rape" and consider the fact that it was only until very recently that male rape was even recognised legally or classified as "rape") and a variety of other reasons.

    But I think one of the biggest root cause of rape culture is the acceptance of rape as an aspect of life and society. The acceptance that if you go to jail, you will more than likely be raped and the belief in society that this is acceptable and expected and desired for a portion of the population, to the belief and acceptance that if a woman dresses a certain way or drinks or behaves a certain way, then she was asking for it to the acceptance that if a guy is raped by a woman, it cannot really be rape because all men want sex.

    I could go on, but you get my drift.
     
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