Misogynist

Discussion in 'Free Thoughts' started by Orleander, Apr 17, 2009.

  1. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    OK.

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    So, see how rude, bitchy, condescending I was to Enmos? I bet not a single thing I said/did made him hate all women. True, he may hate me. LOL But he's not going to judge all women by my actions.
    A misogynist would.
    And sorry Enmos. (I didn't mean any of it.)
     
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  3. Liebling Doesn't Need to be Spoonfed. Valued Senior Member

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    Mike doesn't hate me, or Bells, or Lucysnow or shorty or visceral... so I guess he's not a misogynist either. By that logic.

    Perhaps he just doesn't like overly-emotional, slutty women who jump to conclusions, have no logical thought processes, are dishonest and play mind games. I don't like women who do that either, does that make me a misogynist? I don't like guys who do that, for that matter. But the fact of the matter is that in my experience, women are more likely to be that way then guys are. That's not misogyny, it's opinion based on experience and I don't think Mike has ever said that he hates all women even though you keep accusing him of being a misogynist. I don't see him that way at all, he's just a realist who is honest about his experiences.

    I guess it's all how you look at it. If you are looking for a reason to think negatively about someone, you'll find a million things... it's much harder to find the positive.
     
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  5. takandjive Killer Queen Registered Senior Member

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    Orleander, you might like reading Gayetri Spivak; she talks at length about this. It boils down to human civilization always fearing what is outside the dominant paradigm/what's different/unknown.

    Most of the misogynists I've met are enormously disturbed by outspoken women, and that they can't be controlled.
     
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  7. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    thank you t&j. I'll look into that.

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  8. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    this is not a Mike bashing thread. Please don't drag names into it.
     
  9. takandjive Killer Queen Registered Senior Member

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    Anyway... If we can get back on topic: I'll prattle about my own theory.

    I know in my father's case, his mother rejected him while he grew up in a conservative setting in TX.
     
  10. CutsieMarie89 Zen Registered Senior Member

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    aside from men not being able to hit women and get the same support from society that a woman who hit a man does/ might (which was a rule I'm sure men imposed on themselves) and maybe women having more weight in a custody battle decision. I fail to see how men really have the short end of the stick. To me it seems to me like when a kid (Jimmy) gets a billion toys that they can play with and another kid (Harry, who has very little toys) gets handed a one new toy and then Jimmy throws a fit because Harry got a toy. True story. It happens all of the time. It's like Jimmy wants to be a victim, but from Harry's perspective it's hard to see Jimmy as a victim.
     
  11. takandjive Killer Queen Registered Senior Member

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    I think it's hard for men to accept that there's been a power shift, and I think you summed it up perfectly, Marie. We're the primary caretakers and purchasing consumers because most men don't want to be. OF COURSE this gives us additional power. If I spend more time caring for the baby than my male partner, of course I have more say about how the baby's raised.
     
  12. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    My father was the youngest (by a large margin) and the only son. His Mom waited hand and foot on him and he expected the same thing from his wife.
    When my Mom left him, he ranted about her til his dying day, even though he had married another doormat.
    He called my brothers by name. My sisters and I were called daughter.
     
  13. takandjive Killer Queen Registered Senior Member

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    (((Hugs, Orleander)))

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    Dads have such a huge impact on their daughters' life; it's so important they cast sexism aside.

    Funny story: My brother is not a technical guy or Mr. Fix It. My SIL mows. He also is not at ease with babies. When my niece was a few months old, my SIL was mowing. My brother was watching the baby. All of a sudden, he bursts out of the house waving his arms, yelling. SIL stops the mower.

    "The baby messed her pants," he says. This happened several times before she wised up. Now my brother gets the three year old ready for school. So, men do outgrow their fathers sometimes!
     
  14. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    The evolution of insanity?

    It's culturally-acquired behavior. You can list out the usual complaints about television, movies, and music. And, frankly, I've never figured out the purpose of the badly-written, completely random sex scenes in Dean Koontz novels. (At least the homoerotic wet dream in King's "The Apt Pupil" had a psychological purpose.)

    To the other, though, I was noticing something strange taking place in pornography. There is a subset of amateur porn photography apparently referred to as "ENF", or, "Embarrassed Nude Females". It's possible this was just invented; I had never seen such pictures described in that way before. But there was something curious about them. In the majority of the pictures, women were covering themselves as kind of a joke. They had smiles on their faces, were enjoying the moment. There were, at least in the gallery I encountered, no genuinely embarrassed or humiliated women. But there were, scattered throughout the gallery, pictures including both men and women. The women were smiling and playing along; the men were embarrassed to have their penises caught on camera.

    The relevance of this has to do with sex roles, both as a general societal issue and in the particular sexual context. The woman is supposed to be subservient. Really, take a look at the pornography a man looks at and wonder if he would do the same on camera.

    I mean, what's with the frilly lingerie? I've put the question to women before, trying to figure out some question pertaining to whether the underwear is supposed to be seen, who's supposed to see it, and why. Consistently, I got the answer that it makes women feel more privately feminine.

    Yet in early parenthood, when approaching toilet training, decorative underwear is a recommended reward scheme. When the little girl becomes big girl, she gets to wear big-girl panties with Strawberry Shortcake plastered all over, or "You Can't Touch This (Even if You Want To)" scrawled across the ass. I had a most frightening occasion once with a nine year-old. Her older sister said something about thongs, and the younger said, "I have a thong." Everything sort of stopped for a moment, and then the girl looked me square in the eye and said, "Wanna see?"

    It seems to me that both phenomena—ENF and underwear—accommodate men. Doesn't mean thongs aren't comfortable. Hell, I still have a few left in my drawer. But that doesn't mean the teddy with the floss-string pulled taut over the sphincter is comfortable, and it doesn't mean the massive amount of wire and ruffle is convenient to wear under a blouse and skirt to work.

    And why are women expected to show their legs? Seriously, it's a social custom?

    These are all manifestations of long cultural processes. And that's where a lot of "innocent" (if such a word may be used) misogyny arises.

    Seriously, I have never had a woman say to me, "I want to lick your ass."

    And let's consider oral sex for a moment. Sure, if you get an average guy drunk enough, he'll probably put his mouth on a dildo. For a second, or something. But strap that thing on, shove it down his throat until he vomits, and then repeat rapidly for two minutes. Would you expect him to look at you in the morning and say, "I love you"?

    Men are acculturated to antagonize their "feminine side". Behaviorally, most males will pass through various periods viewed by the paranoid as "gay". But we staunch this culturally. Hell, one time I remember this kid I knew broke a pen in his dad's car on the way to a football game. Now, as a parent myself—and even then, in my teen years—it struck me that the major concern was whether the kid got ink all over the interior. But no, his father turned round in his seat and yelled, "You look like a goddamn fairy leprechaun faggot!" It wasn't the recklessness of getting green ink all over the beige cloth interior. It was that green ink on one's hands looked faggy.

    So take a look at porn. One merit of pornography is that it is a window into people's minds. Now, I've had girlfriends that wanted to see me with various things inserted into me, but I'm hard-pressed to recall ever seeing men committing certain acts in pornography. Dennis Miller once made the joke—in his waning days as an actual funny comedian—that the seventy-two virgins just wouldn't cut it for him. After a while, he said, it would get boring, and you start to want a woman who knows when to slip you a finger.

    And, of course, the crowd laughed. Most of the men in the audience had probably been slipped a finger before.

    Yet anal stimulation for men is still considered gay. When was the last time you saw a heterosexually-intended picture featuring a man fisting himself?

    Maybe it says more about my choices of partners, but I've never dated a woman who fisted herself for my viewing pleasure. Even among flesh professionals, it doesn't seem too popular.

    Doesn't mean in the heat of the moment a woman won't ask for more fingers, or eventually call for the plunge. But it's not something an average, sexually-active male can expect to see on a regular basis without constantly asking for it.

    My point is that if we look at how lopsided heterosexual pornography is—even with the whole female domination trend, which is at once extravagant and occurring in a subcultural context—we see a manifestation of the end result.

    Men really do seem to think that a woman riding on top balances the power equation of sexual intercourse. Yet a man can still exercise his will in ways a woman can't. How many het men would allow their partners to strap on, enter them, and rut away with the same intensity as he puts onto her? Very few.

    I'm not describing a cause there, but rather a manifestation of the result. In many, many ways, feminine identity is invested in masculine desire. (One thing I'll side with Oprah on is the idea of blue eye shadow; who the hell ever thought to paint a woman's eyelids those shades of blue on a regular basis? Yeah, I can see for a seasonal festival, or something, but come on .... And yet hairstyles, makeup, even the cut of clothes—a tremendous portion of feminine identity is invested in competing for the opportunity to satisfy a man's desires.

    Now, as to causes, boys grow up in this environment. So even among the "innocent" misogynists, it's largely acculturation. Now add to that particular conditions. Abusive moms? Maybe. Abusive fathers is at least as common. When you grow up seeing your primary role model cuss out, hit, or treat the mother as a slut for his own exploitation, that's the model the boy learns. All manner of domestic abuse—physical, sexual, and psychological—reiterates itself in subsequent generations. It's a long fight to eradicate these problems.

    And in peer relations, the models are reinforced. Sluts are good; that's a joke in my social circles, but mostly because people aren't getting laid enough. It's mostly a good-natured commentary on the self when someone says something. Or the UFC ... they just added a third ring girl to carry cards between the rounds. I've actually participated in an argument over big breasts, small breasts, and fake breasts because of this. Having come up drinking in strip clubs, I've seen enough fake tits in my time that I don't particularly like them. And then there's the Weird Science standard: "Anything more than a mouthful, you're risking a sprained tongue." Or Mike Tramp, formerly of White Lion, who once recounted a groupie with enormous breasts; he enjoyed himself, but said he feared cranial concussions from the way she could sling those things around. These attitudes, at least for my generation, form a fairly substantial portion of our cultural associations.

    In the end, women have something that men want, and in the longstanding traditions of politics and bullshit we've foisted on humanity through the millennia, we have tried many, many methods of trying to take it by force or custom. A basic psychological conflict occurs in the trinity of the mind: The id wants, the ego tempers, and the superego whispers something about our mothers, at which point we freak out. But we've also had a while to get used to this, so the whole misogynistic mess that is human civilization is essentially a complex sublimation of masculine insecurity.

    Put all this together, and throw on the ever-increasing pressures and challenges of society—any generation will tell you things are worse than they were before—and the behavior, while in no way morally justified, becomes at least understandable.

    Men are surrounded by sex-based conflict, and no, we haven't done well in that. But they learn, every day of their lives, that women exist for their benefit. First our mothers, then our girlfriends and wives. And it's a fucking minefield; getting out is not easy. For instance, I came up at a time when men were supposed to hold doors open for women. Eventually, I ran up against a woman I wanted who found that custom degrading. Faced with a choice, I decided that I wasn't going to simply slam the door in women's faces just to make a point, so I will generally hold a door open for anyone. It seemed the logical choice to me. But then, that occurred well into a larger process that defines much of my outlook on sex, sexuality, and social relations between the sexes. Perhaps, without that experience, I would have become like so many of my peers and just complained about a bunch of feminazi bitches who don't know what they want, and rant on and on about stupid things like a woman's right to be punched in the face.

    American men, at least, for the most part bathe in misogyny. As to that, we haven't much choice in the immediate context. Still, though, we have plenty of options for escaping it, including a fair application of cynicism. Except, of course, that cynicism would hack away at the sublimated belief that women exist for our benefit, and there are plenty of people who are so conditioned to that reality that you might as well tell the Pope that there is no God.

    Mark Steel, a forty-something television presenter, author, comedian, and sometimes political candidate, once related a story about a screwdriver his father owned. It had the picture of the woman in the black swimsuit on it, and when you turned the screwdriver point-down, the ink drained out and she was naked. And he did this joke about how his father's friends would come over, and as they talked, the screwdriver would eventually make an appearance, and the guys would laugh in that manly way. The result of all that puritan education, Steel noted of his father's generation, was that his dad was getting turned on by a household tool. (That program is available via YouTube. I recommend the whole program, but see part two, from approximately 8:30 to the end.)

    To express it in fairly straightforward terms, women as sex objects are so important to men that we put pictures of them on screwdrivers. Freud probably would have ejaculated over that, it's so absurd. And not only is she naked, but we can make her get naked at will.

    All I'm saying is think about it. The whole of misogyny is generally derived from a deeply seeded internal conflict, one so sublimated that it can be hard to recognize even when you're staring at it.

    Yes, some of it is just neurotic or psychotic cruelty, but for the most part, misogyny is an expression of masculine insecurity because, while we might be able to go to the moon, or build the latest laptop computers, the one thing we cannot seem to figure out is how we relate to women. It's a Freudian complex of staggering proportions, an ego defense array including denial, displacement, occasional intellectualization, serious projection, heavy rationalization, broad reaction formation, frequent repression, sublimation of dazzling form and proportion, and a degree of suppression that cannot be held negligible. From a purely artistic perspective, it's fucking brilliant. As a social practice, though, well, it's fucking insanity.

    Or so says my two cents.
     
  15. Anti-Flag Pun intended Registered Senior Member

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    Name them. Or at least prove they exist on this board.
    Come on Orly you know how science works, it's that thing where you prove your assertions. Otherwise given your edit of the opening post I'm just going to presume that liebling called it right and you're having a veiled attack at a single person who you dislike(oh gee I wonder who that could be huh?) and this is little more than baiting.
     
  16. Tnerb Banned Banned

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    Good lord.

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  17. takandjive Killer Queen Registered Senior Member

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    Let's pretend Orleander just has it out for someone.

    If we act like grown-ups and just discuss the topic like adults, we've defeated Orleander the Terrible Fanged She-beast*.

    *That's not an insult. That's how she signs her emails.
     
  18. Anti-Flag Pun intended Registered Senior Member

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    Come now, we don't need to pretend. It was clearly designed as bait to get a response, which is against forum rules.
    If she'd wanted to actually discuss it in a nice adult way she would have phrased it differently.
    I'd like her to back up her assertions and point out the non-religious misogynists(and how on earth she knows their religion), I have yet to notice any. :shrug:
     
  19. mrow Unless Registered Senior Member

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    It's fairly obvious. She started this thread shortly after this.

    http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2228265&postcount=157
     
  20. Anti-Flag Pun intended Registered Senior Member

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    Ah, that explains the exact post I missed. I sure as hell wasn't naive enough to believe this was started in all innocence.
    I don't think Mike's a misogynist, he just doesn't like Orly and won't take any smeg from anyone, I seem to recall it doesn't matter what sex they are.
    If Mike's a misogynist then I'm clearly in mikes group so Mrow, you shouldn't talk to me, and neither should Liebling, Bells, Shorty, Luci, or my own mother, I hate them all because their genitals are in entirely the wrong place(despite the fact that one of them gave birth to me, and it's not Luci).

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    Sciforums seems to have turned into a childs playground lately, maybe you should have stayed away? :shrug:
     
  21. mrow Unless Registered Senior Member

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    That's ok, Anti-Flag, we can still be friends because I also like Mike so I'm probably misogynistic too like you two.
     
  22. Anti-Flag Pun intended Registered Senior Member

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    Ohhh you're one of those self-hating types, the kind with low esteem who daddy didn't love. Well get back in the kitchen bitch and make me some pie!

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  23. mrow Unless Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, master.

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