Military Events in Syria and Iraq Thread #4

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Yazata, Apr 12, 2017.

  1. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, they are. They physically exist, these attempts. Putin's lobbying efforts on the Magnitsky Act in the US, for example, have been expensive and persistent. His threats to cut off oil and gas to EU countries are not inventions of propagandists. Neither are his agricultural import bans (taking advantage of his superior ability to impose hardship on his citizenry - the EU cannot counter-ban oil and gas imports, and short its citizens). And so forth.
    And you take all that at face value. That makes sense to you, as a reality.
    Now you are believing your own typing, on top of Putin's PR ( that was some bs you invented for me earlier, when you were trying to avoid facing the nature of Assad's (and Putin's) government.)
    In fact, as was obvious then, almost none of it. Certainly nothing as silly as believing that Putin's import bans are for protecting Russian agriculture (Icelandic fish? Dutch tulips?).

    Back to maps of Syria. These at least are subject to correction by intersubjectively verified physical fact.
     
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  3. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    The Iraq army has taken full control of Al Qaim, the most important town in Iraq which was yet under IS control. It is important also as the border crossing at the Euphrat to Syria. https://mobile.almasdarnews.com/art...-qaim-recaptures-much-isis-held-border-syria/

    Remarkably, the Syrian and Iraq army are said to fully cooperate against Daesh, with Syrian troops on Iraq border side and Iraqi troops on the Syrian side. And there has been news that the Syrian army has taken control over Al Hiri, the first village on the Syrian side of the border. http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=34.410415&lon=40.955744&z=14&m=b

    First, there was some Russian lobbying - that lawyer who met Trump Jr. or so was indeed doing such lobbying - but contrary to your propaganda fantasies not everything done by Russians is done by Putin. Then, the trade with the US is not very relevant, the trade with EU much more, so that Russia cares about EU sanctions more than about US sanctions. And, of course, if the West starts sanctions, there will be countermeasures. Like the agriculture import bans. As well as explanations about possible reactions if the EU starts more serious sanctions.
    They certainly worked. Russia's agriculture has serious growth rates, and this has started already during the economic crisis caused by the sanctions and low oil price.
    https://www.ft.com/content/422a8252-2443-11e7-8691-d5f7e0cd0a16
     
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  5. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Nothing done by the Russian government, its ambassadors, and the various foreign agents reporting to it,

    like the anti-sanction lobbying and threats and so forth

    is done without Putin's ok.
    Russian agriculture could hardly avoid serious growth rates and exist, especially if oil - a primary input in fertilizer etc - became cheap.

    But you make a good observation - as long as Putin can impose hardships on the citizenry, he can obtain benefits from measures denied Western governments. Strongman rule has its virtues.
     
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  7. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    YMMD.
     
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    You abridged the quote: "Russian agriculture could hardly avoid serious growth rates and exist, especially if oil - a primary input in fertilizer etc - became cheap."
    https://www.apk-inform.com/en/news/1086924#.Wf15-hTzK14
    About what an ordinary modernization would provide, subsidized mechanization and the like - something long, long overdue in Russia.

    It's not yet near to replacing the lost imports, of course, and will never replace Icelandic fish and the like - but a popular strongman can do that.

    So far, the main public complaints against sanction hardships have come from EU farmers losing money - clearly in a conflict based on whose citizens will most readily accept hardships, the Russians have a strong advantage.

    Nevertheless, the expensive lobbying campaign against the Magnitsky Act and other financial strictures more or less originating in the US indicates that a lack of complaint does not point to a lack of pain - and unlike the regular citizenry adjusting to foodstuff scarcities, the class of Russians who object to curbs on their money laundering and overseas financial dealings appears to have the government's ear somehow.
     
  9. pjdude1219 screw watergate i want to know about zaragate Valued Senior Member

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    the entire point of the conflict was the srbs were ethnicly cleaning the kosvarians from kosovo. again you don't get top rewrite history because your a fascist.
     
  10. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    Ethnic cleansing of Kosovo was a Western propaganda fantasy. The fascists in the Yugoslavian civil war were supported by the NATO. Croatia had a quite strong fascist tradition, Ustasha. And it was Croatia which was supported by the NATO, in particular in the ethnic cleansing operations against the Serbs in Krajna.

    Some gourmets in Moscow and Piter will, of course, miss some specialties. Who cares?
    It remains to explain such elementary things to some politicians, who really seem to think that with some sanctions one can win something against a nation which has not given up Leningrad under Nazi blockade.

    Forget about that Magnitsky Act. It plays no role at all in the Runet, except as a good example if one wants to present Western lies or double standards or so.
    Not really.
     
  11. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    I miss the maps.
     
  12. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Second.

    There was mass murder and rape of Muslims by Christian Serbs in former Yugoslavia. New graves are still turning up. http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/bosnia.htm
    There was also destruction of mosques, dwellings, libraries, and other ethnically identified stuff, particularly in Kosovo, and people fleeing the threat were deprived of identity documents and records - preventing return.
    Whether the NATO bombing helped matters any is a separate issue.
    It plays a big role in Putin's US lobbying - a lot of money and time has been devoted to pressuring the US to repeal it.
    Not the Russian citizenry, obviously - so Putin's lobbying efforts focus on the banking and financial stuff, the interests of the oligarchs he can't keep happy with macho posturing. As with Trump, they're the citizens that count.
    Word. That's been the lobbying focus in the US, the connection with Trump, etc. It's harder to rob an economy when you can't get your money clear of it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2017
  13. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    We're not trying to siege Leningrad, comrade. We're just trying to bankrupt the Russian government and the army it finances, and these efforts have already had a major impact- note how Russia has canceled billions of dollars in planned military spending, and will continue to cancel more in the near future. In my opinion of course, the ordinary people of Russia tacitly support Putin and must themselves be targeted with sanctions in order to have the best possible impact, since their taxes and labour help keep his government afloat, but if harm to these mentally challenged simpletons can be minimized while bankrupting the nation and its institutions, all the better.

    Economic sanctions are part of the solution, but there are more aggressive options if you still want to play the Leningrad starvation card. If it were up to me, Ukraine would be getting nukes the second it cleans up its remaining corruption issues and establishes a solid democratic charter, and then we'd see if you still want to wave your cock around at them. After all, Ukraine gave up its nukes in the first place so assholes like you wouldn't go occupy them and snatch yet another chunk of their land, as it explicitly promises in the treaty Russia signed with them, and your friends still went ahead and trampled the treaty, so Ukraine should get their toys back (the same one you always like to remind us that Russia has), and we'll make it a nice, even fight.
     
  14. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    The map shows the actually most interesting place - the Syrian-Iraq border near the Euphrat. Al Bukamal, the greatest nearby town, is also the greatest town under ISIS control in Syria. The Iraq part of the South-West bank of the Euphrat is now under complete control of Iraq troops, with large participation of Hisbollah/Iranian/Shia militias/Syrian troops/whatever. It is not completely clear who is there, but clear that this is the Syria/Iraq/Iran/Hisbollah coalition. They have taken control of the border crossing itself, and have entered now Syrian territory and taken the first village on the Syrian side. Certainly with full support of the legal Syrian government.

    This border crossing is strategically very important for the Shia connection from Iran vs. Iraq and Syria to Lebanon. The US/Israel has tried hard to prevent it, first with the occupation of the Al Tanf border crossing (which is, up to now, occupied by the US), then by forcing the Kurds to go South. There is, of course, already a land connection under Shia control now, but it goes through the desert, thus, is not really comfortable.

    Yes. And of Orthodox Christian Serbs by Catholic Croats and Muslims, as well as between them. This was a civil war, with atrocities from all sides. And the NATO supported, for political reasons, all those fighting against the Serbs, to destroy the Yugoslavian state.
    At least you claim so. Whatever. In fact, the only point were Magnitsky lobbying has played a role in recent time was that lawyer trying to connect with the Trump team, without success, which was later used to defame Trump Jr. During the discussion of this in the Russian media, it became clear that this was a low level lawyer hired by some secondary guy who, indeed, tried to lobby against Magnitsky, but nobody else cares. Of course, the US media tried hard to present this as a direct connection with the Kreml. So, you look here like a victim of these propaganda against Trump.
    No. The oligarchs are happy that they will not be taken to court like Chodorkowski and their ownership is not questioned, as long as they stay out of politics. This is the difference between oligarch rule under Yeltsin time (supported by the US) and Putin's rule (fought by the US). In fact, with the countersanctions Putin also showed that he did not care much about those rich gourmets in Moscow and Piter who cannot live without an original French Camembert and despise anything Russian, who heavily opposed these countersanctions.

    Remember, lobbying is something big private businesses can do, and usually do. This includes, of course, also Russian oligarchs, who are rich enough to afford such things. And, given that they have transferred a lot of money out of Russia (something the Russian government is fighting against), they will try hard lobbying against anything which makes their money transfers harder. So, I do not doubt that there is some lobbying against some aspects of the sanctions.
    You will not succeed. The Russian financial status is satisfactory, Russia is doing enough for the military to prevent US aggression. It has shown that it is even able to fight a war successfully without much costs. Now almost all of the Russian airforce has serious combat experience, which is worth a lot. Don't forget: Russia is strong in producing the things which are necessary for survival: Food, energy, raw materials, and weapons to defend all this.
    Thanks for openly demonstrating your anti-Russian fascist mindset.
     
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  15. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    Yes comrade, all is good, just as it was every other time right before Russia collapsed.

    Thanks for demonstrating your Russian colonial mindset, Ilja.
     
  16. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    So your original claim - that stories of ethnic cleansing in Kosovo were Western propaganda - was bs. Even you knew better.
    The Yugoslavian State was destroyed by the Serbian seizure of power within it, a coup which led to civil war, which NATO embargoed against arms but otherwise allowed to progress unimpeded for a long time - a time during which the already well-armed Serbs had a clear and predicted military advantage.
    No, I don't.

    Your little fantasy there squares with none of the physical events and timelines, one obvious tipoff being your claim that the Russian lawyer was not successful in trying to "connect with the Trump team", and that the supposedly failed attempt has since been used primarily to "defame Trump Jr" or some such triviality. That and your acceptance of such descriptions of the principals as "low level lawyer" and "secondary guy" reveals either striking naivety and gullibility - similar to that which explains your posting of Hillaryhate videos and Republican Party campaign bs as political analysis here - or cynical and agenda motivated Russian propaganda dissemination using this forum as a platform. http://www.businessinsider.com/who-...n-trump-jr-met-with-the-russian-lawyer-2017-7

    That a "low level lawyer" and "secondary guy" acting on their own got that list of men into one room in Trump Tower in the middle of Trump's campaign to talk trivia about adopted babies is not something anyone with common sense in this world is going to believe, ok? That's why Junior there - and everybody else involved - concealed the meeting and lied about it afterwards.
    All of the lobbying in the US has been by people connected to Putin's government. All of the US ties include ties to governments - Ukraine, Turkey, as well as Putin's. None of the suspect transfers of money that have come to light in these stories have attracted official attention and legal cooperation in prosecution from Putin's government. The investigations of Russian/American fraud, crime, money laundering, etc, undertaken by various interests in the US (including in the Magnitsky affair itself) have been obstructed, not aided, by Putin's government.

    Which brings us - follow the money - to Syria and the pipelines and the otherwise inexplicable clash of Western oil powers in this one hard-luck country.
     
  17. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    The Syrian army coming from T2 direction has now reached the Iraqi border:

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    This seems to be, judging from the street, another border crossing, but in the desert. There remain some 20 or so km to the border crossing at the Euphrat. The large pocket is probably nothing but an artefact, this is a desert region, the troops move along the road, and there are, of course, enough drones flying around to identify ISIS forces large enough to be dangerous, and they would not leave them alone. But all what those who make the maps know is that the road has been cleared, about the pocket they simply know nothing.
    No. Ethnic cleansing in Kosovo were Western propaganda. Atrocities in the Yugoslavian civil war is something different. Not every war crime is ethnic cleansing, the Kosovo war and the Yugoslavian civil war were even different wars, and of different character.
    Thanks for clarifying that you were simply a Clintonoid propaganda victim. I had suspected that your talk about Magnitsky lobbying had some real background I did not know about, but obviously not.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
  18. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah, Trump must lose a lot of sleep at night trying to save those dozens of poor, orphaned Russian babies that Putin doesn't want Americans to adopt. Major campaign issue there for sure.
     
  19. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    BTW a note for everyone here, for future reference. At the moment Schmelzer insists that Trump had no collusion with Russian officials during his campaign.

    Theory: Ilja Schmelzer is a lying, insecure Russian/Russified fascist propagandist living in Soviet-colonized East Germany, who yearns for the restoration of the Russian empire and feels better about his own personal life, abilities and circumstances when Russia rapes its weak neighbours and client states, and America appears helpless to do anything about it on Russian TV.

    Prediction: When the evidence becomes undeniable and top Trump officials are openly confessing to Russian collusion, Schmelzer will switch from denials to justifications of why it was the right thing to do, but will continue to insist as always that Russian propaganda is always invariably true even after changing his storyline.
     
  20. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    The ethnic cleansing of Kosovo was an atrocity, committed by the Serbs during one of the civil wars that broke up Yugoslavia. Croatia and neighboring regions are swamped with refugees from it to this day.
    The fact that it was used to justify a problematic NATO bombing campaign does not change that.
    Your claim was that the ethnic cleansing committed by the Serbs in Kosovo did not happen.
    Not every war crime is ethnic cleansing, but every ethnic cleansing during war is a war crime - the Serbs committed that crime, in Kosovo.
    Nobody with a lick of sense is going to believe that the mid-campaign Trump Tower meeting with those eight guys, the one that everybody involved hid and lied about for months afterwards, was a trivial discussion of Russian adoption policy led by a "low level lawyer". So why do you try even once on this forum, let alone repeatedly, to sell bullshit like that? Do you believe it yourself?

    Meanwhile in Syria, the money will be coming to the fore as - or if - victory over the Sunni bad guys grows assured.
     
  21. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    The other place where interesting things happen is the Idlib enclave. Here, the Syrian army also advances, from the East. Formally, the region where the Syrian army is advancing is in the Hama and Aleppo governorates, but I will refer to this region as the Idlib enclave anyway, because the main part of it is the Idlib governorate. The Syrian army attacks on several parts - they are now strong enough to do this, and the elite forces of Al Qaida cannot be everywhere at the same time.

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    Nonsense, I insist on no such things. Learn to read. I couldn't care less about this. I'm simply laughing about the victims of this "the Russians have done this" propaganda nonsense. These propaganda claims are too laughable to check them. That means, I do not check them. And that means I make no claims about them at all. I simply have fun.

    If Trump has violated some law in "Three Felonies a Day" America or not, who knows, probably he has. Who cares? US law today is so far from reasonable law that to find something is a question of clever interrogation techniques by the persecutors, not of real crimes. And I couldn't care less if Trump will be imprisoned or not, for whatever crime. (Ok, if he will be imprisoned, very "interesting" times will follow in the US, and about what follows I will care.)

    That the reaction to Magnitsky was to stop US adoptions shows nicely that Putin does not care about the US sanctions. This was made for internal political reasons. An increasing number Russians was uncomfortable with Russian children given to Americans. The time when Russians thought that it was a good thing for an orphaned child to be adopted by American parents is long over, today Russian people think it is much better for an orphaned child to grow up in Russia. This problem was solved in this way, and in combination with this also the problem of showing some reaction to the sanctions.

    Not plausible. The people living in Kosovo are Albanians, thus, if they would emigrate, they would emigrate to Albania. And in this case, they would have returned after the NATO victory. A large part of refugees from Kosovo are Roma, and they are equally hated by all sides - Serbians, Albanians, Croatians.
    Maybe, but I have supported my claim with a source, which told that the NATO propaganda has exaggerated all this by a large factor. You have not. I'm uncertain if what remains if one substracts the lies from the NATO propaganda is sufficient to name this "ethnic cleansing" or if this was simply what one has to expect in anti-terrorist fighting in a situation where the terrorists have weapons from the neighbour country (Albania) and enough local support, so that atrocities from both sides have to be expected. One would have to look carefully at the numbers, I have no time for this. Anyway, at least 90% of the "ethnic cleansing" is NATO propaganda lie.
    I simply tell you what the Russians write about this. They have a lot of fun observing US going insane in some "the Russians have done this" hysteria.
     
  22. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    But you don't know what US law is.
    In this case, the laws Trump seems to have violated are those that forbid what you claim did not happen. So your claim is in error, whether you care or not. If you really don't care, stop posting propaganda feeds from the ludicrous.
    Or Macedonia - many tried entry there. There were and are refugees in Albania of course. Lots of them, fleeing the ethnic cleansing by the Serbs in Kosovo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_refugees_in_Albania http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9905/05/kosovo.refugees.01/index.html
    And Germany. And Canada https://www.opencanada.org/features...ive-compassionate-moments-in-canadas-history/
    And the US: http://www.cnn.com/US/9905/05/us.kosovo.refugees/
    And so forth. It was an ugly event in an ugly war.
    Your uncertainty is not evidence. The opposite, more - given the common circumstances in which your ignorance appears to be willful and tactical.

    You keep saying stuff that happened or seems to have happened or might well have happened cannot have happened because in your ignorance you don't find it plausible, or you can't see it, or it doesn't make sense to you, or you are "uncertain" - all of this is standard US media pro treatment of reality the wingnuts don't want to acknowledge, or bs they want to publicize without being accountable for its veracity.
    It doesn't support your claims here. NATO propaganda wasn't the evidence in the first place.
    Then the Kosovo ethnic cleansing is in the 10%. So?
    "The Russians", is it: they are not here to defend themselves against your libels - but I believe you anyway. There are lots Americans just as chuckleheaded as that - 63 million of them actually voted for Trump.

    Meanwhile - we're following the money across a map of Syria. Tallyho.
     
  23. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    The most interesting news have been about Saudi Arabia. What first looked like news about Lebanon - the resignation of Hariri on Saturday - was obviously initiated by Saudi Arabia. Hariri is essentially the guy supported by Saudi Arabia. He was the Prime Minister, which was some sort of compromise in the complex political landscape of Lebanon. He declared about his resignation, remarkably, not in Lebanon, but during a visit in Saudi Arabia. This is a point which Hesbollah leader Nasrallah has now openly attacked as inappropriate. He said "This text is not Lebanese, this text was written by Saudi Arabia and the writing is Saudi; whereas the prime minister only read it."

    And the other news from Saudi Arabia is that a lot of Saudi Princes have been arrested for corruption. Today, another Saudi Prince crashed with a helicopter. So, all this looks like an intensification of the Saudi-internal power fight.
    I don't have to, because I don't care. I know enough to be sure I would never even think about living there, that's all I have to know.
    Wars are never nice (except maybe for some US bomber pilots or drone operators with sadistic streaks), civil wars are even worse, and refugees are common in all wars.
    I have given the evidence that how the Western media presented all this was a big lie. If there are some remains of truth hidden among these lies I remain uncertain. And this was not really what I cared about at that time. It was yet another field where I have learned that Western media lie in a very organized and coordinated way. And this finally destroyed the remains of trust in Western media I had during communist rule and some times later.

    If you have identified sources which lie consistently and in an organized way, do you start to check everything they write? I don't, this is a question of economy of time.
    You suggest here that I use some type of reasoning which I certainly don't use. So, I have not written that the genocide cannot have happened. I think it has not happened - I think that there have been the amount of war crimes and atrocities common in civil wars, but not more. The ethnic cleansing was a Western propaganda invention. One with some plausibility, given that there was ethnic cleansing with Western support by the Croats in the Krajna.
    Or in the 1%. Or in the 0.1%. Whatever, it was not enough to justify a war, bombing Belgrad.

    Why? Because else this would be a free ticket for the NATO to attack every country of the world. All they have to do is to give some group which somehow feels suppressed weapons and terrorist support, and cry "genocide" once the government starts some anti-terrorist actions, and then start the war.

    And for this point it is quite sufficient to recognize that they have lied justifying their war. If the war would have been justified, there would not have been a necessity to lie. They have lied, so they found the real evidence is not strong enough to justify a war. And they started a propaganda campaign full of lies.
     

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