Michigan and the USD

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by Michael, Apr 22, 2012.

  1. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    6,805
    We dont have a competing currency...but we do have a competing asset called GOLD!

    When the value of the dollar plummeted in the late 1970s people (especially the wealthy) turned to gold and bumped its exchange rate to a peak of $800.
     
  2. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Imagine we were on an island.

    Suppose we worked day and day out fishing. But, we did have nice voices and good coconuts. We didn't really have much time to sing and eat coconuts because we all had to work day in and day out to catch fish (by hand). This kept everyone on the island employed. One day some people from a nearby island came to trade. They had way too many fish. They traded their fish for songs and coconuts. We suddenly didn't have to work all day. We developed a relationship where we traded songs and coconuts and they traded fish.

    Most people in both societies had less work to do and could instead go for swimming in the morning and sunset walks in the evening.

    Has the wealth of these two nations increased?

    Notice that both people are working a LOT LESS. Is this a good thing?
     
  3. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Gold and silver have intrinsic value for sure. But, we shouldn't be forced to use only gold and silver. We should have the choice to do so, but, we could also use other currencies - such as bit coins (as an example).
     
  4. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    You voted for Reagan, you voted for W,

    you quit levying taxes on the rich, allowing them to drain your productivity into offshore banks and foreign investment,

    you helped break the unions

    you refused to educate or otherwise welcome the influx of black immigrants

    you fought socialized medical insurance tooth and nail

    you supported every war that any jingo in Washington could dream up

    and the chickens came home to roost.

    If you had tried to separate your economy from New York's, GM would simply have moved their operations to someplace that welcomed New York financing, the lifeblood of Michigan manufacturing for a century.
     
  5. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    6,805
    This is a scenario where one island has a surplus of fish, and another island has a surplus of coconuts.

    This is not analogous to a modern scenario where money can be used to buy any commodity...not just those commodities in short supply.
     
  6. Cavalier Knight of the Opinion Registered Senior Member

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    You don't trust fiat currencies, but you trust bit coins? They are just a fiat currency, without any governmental power backing up the fiat.
     
  7. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    AFAIK bitcoins have a set number that will be produced (until sometime in the next century I think?). I think I got a bitcoin or two for free from a website but, I haven't purchased any. I might? Why not buy $50 in bitcoins just to see how they are used in bitcoin commerce?

    The point isn't that I don't "trust" fiat currency, I don't mind fiat IF people are free to chose and we do not have an immoral central bank which (coincidentally) together with the central government forces us to pay income tax in USD. Try paying in apples - they ain't buying it. It's no coincidence the Federal Reserve Act and the 16th Amendment both occurred in the same year - 1913. They go together like hand in glove.

    But I don't worry, these things have a way of running their course. As we move towards Socialism and China moves towards Capitalism they will become richer and we will become poorer. It's a simple fact of economics. Central bureaucratic bung-holes can not efficiently and economically distribute goods. As "The People" clamor for more and more Big Government we must at the same time reduce our Civil Liberties so that the government has some level of economic effectiveness.

    Some lessons need to be learned over and over and over and over...... this is one of them.
     
  8. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    I dont believe China is capitalist...or that America is socialist.

    In China the government owns or controls private enterprise.

    In America its the reverse...private enterprise controls the government.

    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2012/04/19/unplugging-americans-from-the-matrix/
     
  9. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    6,805
    Have you moved your money into a credit union?

    Have you converted most of your wealth to precious metals?
     
  10. Cavalier Knight of the Opinion Registered Senior Member

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    157
    Actually...it is a coincidence. The 16th amendment was passed BY CONGRESS in 1909, during the opening days of the Taft (Republican) admninistration. It was ratified, BY THE STATES in February 1913, during Taft's last few days in office. The Federal Reserve Act was then passed in late December of 1913 by Congress and the (Democratic) President, Woodrow Wilson.

    In fact, it could be said that it is NOT a "coincidence," in that the two events were themselves in no way coincident.
     
  11. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    22,697
    I have several answers for you.

    #1 is QUALITY. I grew up in the 1950s (well I never actually grew up but that's when I learned to drive) and American cars were the best cars on the road. Okay German cars were pretty good too but they were small and expensive. Then the Japanese got in the market. Their cars were as good as anybody's, and although they were small too, they were dirt-cheap. I spent the 1970s driving a Datsun pickup truck and it was just great. Then in 1982 my wife urged me to live out my dream before I got too old, and she bought me a Trans Am. I was in heaven... for about six months until I realized that it was a piece of crap. I didn't expect it to be a "real" sportscar like a Porsche, but this car was nothing but a dressed-up sedan with less legroom. It fishtailed every time I tried to take it through a hard turn, and almost crashed me twice. It burned out two transmissions. The radio crapped out. Finally the computer died so it started getting 7mpg and smoking like a steamship. I was tired of sending good money after bad so with only 70K miles I sold it for practically nothing to a kid who just wanted a car that looked cool.

    And I bought a Toyota Supra. It didn't look very cool but it ran like a real honest-to-Aphrodite racing car. Got much better fuel economy than the Pontiac. I couldn't break the tires loose if I tried, and believe me I tried. It went exactly where I pointed it until I ran out of courage to turn it any tighter. Nothing ever broke, and it had much better creature comforts.

    Today I'm more prosperous and I drive a Mercedes. Detroit simply does not make a car in that class. They pretend they do, and they charge plenty for them, but they're not even close to German engineering or German creature comforts. This is a 5,000 lb SUV and it literally corners almost as well as my old Supra. I only broke the tires loose once, trying to catch a motorcycle on a twisty road.

    A friend of mine bought a Volvo that already had 300,000 miles on it. Four years later the car is still running like a dream. He's spent zero on repairs. Detroit used to make cars like that, but they stopped.

    #2 is UNIONS. How long did they think this country would survive if we kept paying blue collar workers more than teachers? Of course now the teachers have their own unions and have more than paid us back for all those decades of squalor. But public sector unions? Wait a minute: you've got guaranteed employment for life. The only way they can fire you is if you come to work drunk, sell drugs, carry a gun, and sexually harass a quadripegic who is also a member of an ethnic minority. You work about two hours a week and spend the rest of your time coming up with creative things to say on your status report and sitting in meetings while you text your friends. You need a union too?

    I know the old saw about how any company that gets a union probably needed one, but I think that phase of American life is way behind us now. If you want a better job, you should have paid attention in high school instead of goofing off, so you could have gotten into a university. Eventually most of the blue-collar jobs will be automated out of existence. A Japanese car doesn't represent nearly as many hours of human labor as an American car... and it's a damn better car! They used to call Toyotas "Japanese Mercedes," now they call Mercedes "German Toyotas." Meanwhile, a Chevrolet is an "American Fiat."

    #3 is INCOMPETENT CAPITALISTS. You didn't think I was going to lay this all on the workers, did you? ;) They're offshoring all the jobs to China. Now that Chinese workers get higher wages, they're moving them to Malaysia. Eventually all the jobs will be in Angola, Uruguay and Kyrgyzstan. This is such short-term thinking, I can't believe that these guys don't see through their own stupidity. What are they going to do when Americans are working exclusively in the service industries except for a few of us white-collar folks in the software houses? Nobody will have enough money to buy their crappy, poisonous Chinese dreck. Then what are they gonna do? Retire on their private islands with armed guards to keep the rest of us out? Don't they have children? Don't they care about their lives?
     
  12. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I have one international bank for international transfers and then I use a local bank (which sadly the branch I was using went bust, they only have one other branch and I'm still using them). I do use international banks for trading when I do trade (which isn't often). I also have a local branch of a Japanese bank in Japan.
     
  13. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I voted for Clinton, I voted for Obama.

    "The Rich" and what tax they pay, was lowered by Clinton - if I recall correctly.

    I was part of UAW. Unions are not a problem as long as other non-Union companies are allowed to compete.

    Black immigrants? I have no idea what you're talking about.

    Socialized medicine? In the past I probably thought it was a good idea. I can see now it's not. However, we're talking about an entire culture and field that would have to be changed. You probably enjoyed life when Capitalism provided you with luxury and now that you didn't save or put away for your retirement needs, you feel no qualms to steal from your grandkids to pay for your excessive medical bills. Either that or you're just clueless. You don't get "free" medical care. Someone has to pay for it. If that someone isn't YOU then it's someone else. That's why we have insurance.

    I voted against the War. I now understand that Big Government is only able to finance the War through income tax, inflation and the federal reserve. All of which YOU actually support - so you should be happy.


    As for MI, I think Arthur made some valid points. I still believe that we Michiganders subsidized the value of the USD for 3 generations. But, now manufacturing and production are no longer the biggest parts of the US economy. It's finance. Can you imagine that?!?! Finance. The entire nation is sitting in it's anus right next to you - asking for all their free stuff and whining someone owes them. You should be happy, you're in great company. Most people in the USA think exactly like you. They don't understand why things go from shit to shitty.

    So they elect the Clinton's (who sell them out to the Banks) the Bush's (who send them to War) and the Obama's who do both.

    Lucky for you Big Bank and the Politicians in their pockets really do give two f*cks about you. They love you. You're their dear little Cattle. Why, they care for you so much their going to promise you all sorts of things: Free Healthcare, Free food, Free Housing, Free Internet, Free, Free Free Free..... all you have to do is steal from your neighbor and sellout your grandchildren's future.
     
  14. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    6,805
    Because of your international lifestyle it doesnt sound like you CAN switch to credit unions. If you could, that would be a way of disengaging yourself from the Federal Reserve System.

    Storing your wealth in precious metals would also be a way to disengage from paper money...which will be printed at will from here to eternity.

    The supercommittee has already shown that there is no WILL to cut spending.
     
  15. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    9,762
    @Michael

    Its worse than you imagine. Watch this (29 minutes): http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/poor-america/

    BBC Panorama at 22:10 says "Detroit looks worse than Beirut"

    The only funny part of it was reading these two comments;

    "I sit in my dining area in Australia and watch this and then I read some of the comments and feel sad over it all. It matters not who is to blame, what matters is these people are PEOPLE and they need medical help and food and shelter. Made me feel ashamed that I visited the US in August 2011 and spent money on meaningless things. If I ever return I will seek some of these people out and give them help rather than wasting money on things I take for granted."


    "I live in England and we're always moaning about how people grow up in the welfare system, don't even bother trying to get jobs and mock people who do work for being "stupid" because you can get everything here by doing nothing. But actually, I'd rather have to pay my taxes and national insurance for these cocky welfare leeches than have to live in a society like the one shown in this video. America is always acting like it's on the moral high ground, good christian folks who care about others and help charity but this video shows what bullshit that it."
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2012
  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I believe it was in "Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story" where they made the case that China is much more Capitalistic whereas England is much more Communistic.

    I don't recall the exact metric they used, I believe it had to do with the number of public sector employees and GDP. England scored somewhere in the 60-70s on a 100 point scale (with 0 being laissez-faire and 100 being Communism) whereas China was down in the 30s. If I recall correctly. America was somewhere in between.

    IMO when we create an institution (group of humans) that has the power to legally initiate force against you - well, expect all the criminals to flood in to such an institution like moths to a light.


    The "Great Recession" will end sometime and when it does we'll be stuck with a wealthy 0.1% that is even more wealthy and a more powerful and more corrupt central government. Taxes will increase and civil liberties will decrease to bailout even more reckless financial institutions gambling on everything and anything. The financial sector will grow at the expense of the productive class. The poor will grow. The middle class shrink. Eventually there will be enough poor people clamoring for "Change We Can Believe In" and they'll be sent to die in some pointless war conjured up to distract the masses.
     
  17. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    6,805
    Depends on what is the legal justification for force.

    We have to initiate force against bank robbers and rapists.

    The libertarian position is that force should never be initiated against 'personal liberty'...the right to do whatever you wish to yourself.
     
  18. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    That's not "initiation" of force but self defense. Self defense is of course immorally acceptable behavior. It may be possible to come up with some sort of "Dr. Evil" is going to blow up the world if you don't... blah blah blah, but, in real life normal self-defense (rape, mugging, etc...) is fine. Protecting your private property is moral and goes with self-defense as your body is your property.

    Hence the reason why libertarians are fine with drugs or prostitution etc... it's your body at the end of the day you can choose what you want to put in it or do with it. Another reason why Libertarians don't sit well with "Conservatives" and why the GOP will have to shift left on some things.
     
  19. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Mark Faber concluded his June 2008 newsletter with the following mock quote:

    "The federal government is sending each of us a $600 rebate. If we spend that money at Wal-Mart, the money goes to China. If we spend it on gasoline it goes to the Arabs. If we buy a computer it will go to India. If we purchase fruit and vegetables it will go to Mexico, Honduras and Guatemala. If we purchase a good car it will go to Germany. If we purchase useless crap it will go to Taiwan and none of it will help the American economy. The only way to keep that money here at home is to spend it on prostitutes and beer, since these are the only products still produced in US. I've been doing my part."
     
  20. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    16,771
    They weren't running against Reagan and W.

    And I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about Michigan - you identified with it.

    You don't, as always.

    So they weren't a problem in Michigan, then. Fine.

    Hence your odd inability to recognize what happened to Michigan.

    And since I have to pay for it, I don't want to pay twice as much as any other First World citizen on the planet for substandard Second World care delivery, and live surrounded by people who can't afford ordinary medical care and display the effects. So I want what they've got - socialized medical insurance. All the advantages of private insurance multiplied by ten, and none of business model overhead.

    You voted for Gore and Kerry both? I don't believe you.
    My government just borrowed the money from the Chinese. I'm trying to get them to pay the debt off by raising taxes on the people who got us into it - as a matter of both practicality (they've got all the money) and justice. No luck yet.
     

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