Mental health stigma

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by Asguard, Aug 22, 2011.

  1. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

    That part I...will partly agree with.

    But, unless I am missing your point, the conclusion you draw from that is that therefore, all we have to do is to overcome it with sheer willpower.

    And what I am telling you is that that this opinion is not supported.

    The basic difference of opinion, in a nutshell, here is that you believe the dramatic upswing in depression is due to an epidemic of whiners.

    What I'm telling you is that we're having an epidemic of depression, and that while there may be sociocultural factors influencing that development...that does not mean the brain changes or need for treatment are not real.

    Here is what I linked regarding brain changes pertaining to depression alone:
    As far as the rest goes, I have occasionally been clicking on "view post."
    I'll stop being aggravated now.
    If you must call me names, though, which you will note I did not do to you, at least attempt to get the gender correct. Maybe the age too, I'm two years shy of 40. I don't think "lad" or "sunshine" are terribly respectful, please do not refer to me as such again.

    As for getting better...this afternoon I'll be getting the assistance of someone with a Master's in Clinical Social Work.
    As highly as you think of your opinion, she has a master's in helping people get better.
    I'm going to get better. Different meds, more therapy, eventually a better job...back to school in the spring I hope..
    I'm obligated. Others.
    You presume what you know about Asguard in his posting the entirety of who he is and an adequate method upon which to judge him. Probably do the same of me as well.
    You don't know us.
    And you don't seem open to figuring out what it's like to be someone with Major Depressive Disorder.
    You're going to tell us how we are. Based on what sounds like a mild depressive episode.

    You yourself are fairly abusive in your posting habits, Marquis, which is one of the reasons I put you on ignore in the first place. Regret clicking. Really regret it.

    If I wanted abuse I can go reopen my Fark account.
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2011
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  3. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    You insist on a misrepresentation of my intentions here.
    That is unkind of you.
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2011
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  5. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member


    I think you have over-reacted.
    I've been on this forum for quite a long while now,
    and it's out of character for you to abuse people.

    For someone to say that they would prefer six months of terminal cancer to a lifetime of depression, indicates suicidal tendencies.

    @ Marquis. Yes , looking through, I think he has been backtracking.
    But to you I would say to do as he asked, cut him some slack.
    He's not well.
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  7. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    You are the one invalidating yourself.

    That is my point.

    Depressed people are depressed because they keep invalidating themselves.

    Referring to official studies and such is just one form of invalidating yourself.

    The sooner you let this bit of information through, the sooner you'll get better.
  8. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

    You're just intent on missing the point altogether, aren't you?
  9. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

    Ah, you got this in first.

    Cut him some slack?

    There is a term for it... someone might have even mentioned it here, or in the other thread. Where a person actually begins to use the sympathy as a justification to continue behaving in a certain manner, as a ... shield, of sorts. The word "lamb" springs to mind. I don't remember what the term was.
    You're looking at it.

    As long as he continues to receive support, he's not going to be anything other than what he is. They're probably furiously exchanging pm's as I type... mutual reinforcement.
    It's a part of the social factors I've been talking about.

    I'm not going to pretend I like that, or him, simply because he's... unwell.
    That is dishonest. Like watching all the members of a family who hated their father turning up at his funeral and tearfully saying he wasn't such a bad bloke after all.

    Screw that.
  10. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    Yes, I am ignoring them and I will keep ignoring them.

    Because that scientific data is about some other people, not about you.

    We here are talking about you.

    You, however, are victimizing yourself with all that stuff from psychology, sociology, anthropology etc.
  11. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

    I didn't "Get it in first"
    I made a response to an earlier post.
    Talk about egocentric.

    As for pms.
    Not interested.
    My arguments are in the open.

    Are you saying that there is some kind of
    support group working here, which is defending mentally ill people, and allowing them to
    be dependant upon society?
    Possibly to blame others when they should blame themselves.
    I'm not sure what your position is.
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2011
  12. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    As things currently stand, of course he is not well.

    But part of why he is not well is because people have been cutting him slack.

    And to abruptly stop cutting him slack would, of course, hurt.

    I think we should insist that he, for starters, improve his spelling.
    This is a written-only environment.
    The least one can do, by way of respect for one's fellow posters, is to learn to spell.

    People who write poorly also tend to have poor understanding.
    If he reads as poorly as he spells - then what is the point to participate in an online forum where all communication is written?

    I understand that he is dyslexic. But people with dyslexia should reconsider whether it makes sense to engage in activities that require skills they do not have. So they should either improve their skills, or focus on activities that are not adversely affected by dyslexia.

    I have seen Asguard get upset numerous times. Not rarely, the cause seems to be that he doesn't really understand what he reads.
  13. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    Show her this thread. Seriously.

    And I am telling you that you are victimizing yourself by talking like that.
    It's not kind to us either.
  14. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with you here, but just pointing out that I was actually referring to things that I do whilst unconscious. It would seem that I've done an awful lot of things while unconscious over the years--including recording most of the basic tracks for a solo album. Seizure, fugue state, automatic "writing" (in the broad sense), whateverthehell "they" choose to call it, I have no recollection of these "episodes" and only learn of them if other parties were present or if I've left "traces" (i.e., a reel of tape that replete with "wonderful" music that I've no recollection of recording or performing). And, of course, when more than one party is present, I often get conflicting reports as to what in fact I actually did.

    It's kind of odd accepting "responsibility" for something I did when I, or "I," wasn't really "present."

    I'm at fault here though, as I was discussing a neurological phenomenon which sometimes manifests as more of a psychiatric phenomenon.
  15. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    My apologies. I see that you did in fact say as much on page 1, so I'll add that I also wholly concur with you (on that particular point).

    I had a hell of a time trying to make sense of the OP, so I simply jumped immediately to page 2 and consequently overlooked your post initially.
  16. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

    Actually, in many quarters it is.
    To use your own argument against you, you're oversimplifying the matter.
    Do I believe that there are some who it wouldn't work for? Absolutely. I've said as much more than once.
    Do I believe there are more than a few for whom it would work, but they hardly even try because it's ok to be depressed now? Yes. I do.
    And when I say "try", I don't mean that fat guy eating donuts walking once around the block every week and thinking he's done all he can because it's so hard. I know it's hard. Do it anyway.

    A large part of it, yes.
    What did the guy say in your article?
    Black kids, who in decades past actually did have less than wonderful lives for the most part, did not expect anything more than what they had. They didn't have that feeling of entitlement that people have these days.
    The bad times came; they dealt with it. It was life.
    But now they're starting to take on the attitudes of the white kids, as society moves closer to a semblance of equality. It isn't doing them any favours. They expect comfort, security, and to some extent happiness, as a right instead of something they have to work toward.
    They don't get it, and what happens? They can't cope anymore. The mechanisms in place a few decades ago are simply no longer there.

    If you read Asguard in any great depth, you'll see a common thread in his posts... he wants to be protected. Laws, to prevent him from being sacked, from not making as much money as the next guy, from being treated in manner he deems to be unfair. People like him want the entire world to be a fluffy cushion, where "someone" will "do something" when things go bad.

    Reality has a way of having a say about that. Same thing applies - a time comes when they actually have to do something for themselves, when there is no one around to help...and they have absolutely no idea how to go about it. Some of them end up just imploding.

    You think it's a coincidence that the more protective and secure a society gets, the less people know how to deal with adversity?
    They call it the "instant gratification" generation". Look at the results.

    I come from a different generation. If I was being precious, people let me know about it. Funny how that coincided with a time when suicides and depression weren't as common as they are now.
    Are there other factors in play? Sure.
    Does that invalidate this point? No. It does not.
    Just take a look at the arguments being offered in "defence" in court cases now. Guy has a hard childhood, kills a few people and suddenly he's got more rights than his victims families have if he retains the services of a talented lawyer with the ability to induce a few tears in the jury. And shall we get into litigation for "psychological trauma and pain" from being sacked because your boss didn't like you much?

    I'll tell you straight out. People now seem far weaker to me than they were a few decades back. Your great-grandmothers would have mopped the floor with you lot and sat down for a nice cup of tea afterwards.

    You also linked other articles saying basically that you could change it yourself. Meditiation? That's one way. There are plenty of others.
    You are not looking at a permanent change. The brain is a far more powerful organ than you give it credit for. Use it.

    See? There's another part of the problem.
    You all think you deserve respect by default. It's become an almost inalienable "right". There was a time, however, you had to earn it.

    Seen a thousand uni graduates come and go. Some of them were worth something, some weren't.
    All that piece of paper means, particularly with regard to psychology, is that someone learned enough of what they were being told to pass a test.
    You better hope they were told the right things. As for myself, I'll stick to my opinions... until such time as someone proves me wrong.

    I don't know you. And I'm not one of those who is going to pretend I care so much about a total stranger. I judge what I see - we all do. Some of us are just a little more honest about it.

    All in capitals.
    Sure. I haven't been all open and weepy about it, you know, sharing and all that. So I never had it that bad.
    I am quite certain that in your world, this world where depression is through the roof and every man and his dog has a psychologist on speed dial, that's quite a normal thing to think.
    I couldn't possibly have done it without the help of some guy sitting behind a desk with a framed degree in full view, or a pack of sympathetic "friends", could I?

    Yes, I am... or at least I can be. It rather depends on the circumstances, and who I'm speaking to. Already told you, you can ignore me if you want. I really don't care, you know.

    I will say this, though. Don't think it's about you.
    "You" just represent something I've grown to dislike rather intensely. Asguard was my main target, but he's run away now and there you were trying to defend him. That's all there was to it.

    That help? I'm trying to be nice, here.
  17. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

    You are STILL trying to fix me?
    Please stop.

    Your efforts to do so have ended in miscommunication and pain on this end enough times, and your communication style has not been seen to adapt to me telling you so.
    In fact I get the impression you blame me for a failure to take your suggestions and magically get all better now. I had depression symptoms as a 10-year old, I just wasn't suicidally desirous until 11...I remember trying to strangle myself in the school bathroom...
    Not exactly going to magically get better, no.

    PTSD, not magically going to get all better either...not likely to stop having flashbacks, random cases of shakes. I will still be terrified by close relationships and constantly fight the urge to get out of them.
    Now that I think about it, I have read "Women Who Love Too Much," back in the mid-90's. Not terribly useful.)

    Wow...this thread. It is just so F*ing awesome.
    Mental health stigma...

    You know, I've said that when I get my brain better managed, I would not mind modding this subforum. Because between my half a sociology degree, all the reading I've done, and all the therapeutic work I've done, I know a huge amount of crap about psychology. Before the culture went toxic I hung out on a mental health forum for three years I ended up on a lot of those perennial "don't do yourself in, go get help" threads. Usually a couple of those a week. Hung out and was friends with all sorts of nutters over there...miss it, but I got whomped on by a mod off her meds one day, and t'was the last straw...
    (Now at a big social networking site...I pop across about 1-2 suicidal postings a day. I get to to do the daily shoring of the depressives thing. Helluva hobby:bugeye

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    I thought I'd be able to contribute a lot of knowledge regarding social sciences in general...Psychology and practical therapeutic techniques in specific.

    My attitude towards getting better is Rooseveltian: " We'll try this one...and if that doesn't work, why we'll try something else." No one thing magically fixes everybody, and magic bullet fixes generally only happen with low-level problems.

    Anyway...regarding modding and this thread...this thread has made me think that, rather than modding this subforum.... it would be a bit faster to go to my neighbor's and ask to roll around in the fresh cowpats.
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2011
  18. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

    I think there is a mental health stigma because its so unpredictable. Maybe even more so when the ill person refuses medical help. I can't be hurt by someone else's cancer, but I can be hurt by some one else's mental illness
  19. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

    There is that...and I do think mentally ill people have to take responsibility for getting treatment, whatever form that takes, and managing their own conditions. There is always going to be medical stuff to do, behavioral, nutritional, and interpersonal tactics that will help manage mental conditions to maximal functionality...and no, the doctors may supply the medical component, but they are not going to kick your butt out of bed to go for a run, or make you put down the booze.

    (I guess maybe other people view it as dependency on the doctors?
    Whereas the pro-treatment mentally-ill culture view the docs, the meds, and the therapies as a tool we use...this is what I mean by "taking ownership of one's treatment," BTW. We are not going before the altar of medicine or something, we would like our sh!t fixed, thanks, so we pay a repairperson.)

    I do note that mentally ill people are far more likely to be victims than threats though:

    One of my friends from the old forum was very angry about the idea of forced medding...I think someone needs to be a proven threat before you take their civil rights away like that...admittedly this means some people will injure others. I don't like that.
    But I do not like the broad removal of a person's civil rights either, nutter or no.
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2011
  20. Anti-Flag Pun intended Registered Senior Member

    Can't you put him on ignore? Or just not read his posts if you know he gets on your nerves so much? :shrug:
    It's no secret you two don't see eye to eye, and whilst I don't blame you for being frustrated I was led to believe it isn't acceptable to insult posters in such a manner, regardless of the conditions or if we all lose our temper sometimes.
    If I have to take it to an admin then sure. I wouldn't say you're frequently guilty of this by any stretch, so it's nothing personal, but mods seem to be given more leeway than your average user, so hopefully the thread review provides or sets a standard for consistency, and I do appreciate that you accept potential moderation of your posts as part of that.

    As Bells said, she is the mod here. I know who a number of mods are(or were), but not the forums they're responsible for. I believe it's displayed under each subforum though.
    I'm really speaking in more general terms when I speak of mods and consistency, it's just unfortunate Bells is the mod in question making insults this time.
    As far as I know infractions and warnings are private anyway, but for what some people have been banned or warned for there's some question over consistency IMO.
    Obviously I don't keep a log of all activities, and I don't venture through every post made each day to make one so would probably be unfair to do so. It's just things I've happened to notice here. If others haven't, then fair enough.

    I feel like such a bastard(self insult, post-modern acceptability) pointing it out though.
  21. Bells Staff Member

    This is not the first time he has directly targetted me in this fashion. Hence why as soon as he did it, I advised my colleagues that I wanted reviews.

    As I said, there is only so much one can take before one bites back. And maybe that is his intention, who knows. But for me, enough is enough. He has pushed me hard enough over the course of probably over a year now. This is the straw that broke the camel's back. Hence why I immediately advised my colleagues that I wanted a review as soon as he started this thread. Because he not only misrepresented what I said in the other thread, by claiming that I was dismissing depression when what I had said to him was that you cannot compare depression to child onset schizophrenia and that comparing illnesses does not work.

    When someone gets to the point where they are touting their "experience" with being sick, again in a bid to compare.. Yes, it was the straw that broke the camel's back. So yes, I am awaiting moderation and a review. Which is why I did not remove the 'insults' in the first place, because I responded while angry, very angry, and once it's there, it's there.. so I await the review.

    You are free to hit the report button, it is sent to the moderator (me) and to the administrators of this site, if you feel I acted out of place. But rest assured, I had already reported myself before I even responded..

    Now, having said that, I will close this thread pending the review. If it needs to be cleaned up, it will be and reopened. Or reopened as it stands now. Or remain closed. Lets hope it is quick.
  22. Bells Staff Member

    Mod Hat

    Thread closed pending administrator review..


    Review completed..

    Thread re-opened.
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2011
  23. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    No. We are all lays here, and whatever discussions we have here about psychology are necessarily going to be personal, about us.

    We cannot talk about psychological issues the way professional psychologists do. We simply do not have the qualifications for that.
    There is nothing wrong with that.

    But for us to try to mimic their style while we are driven by our own problems - just adds to the problems.

    Moreover, me telling you that this is about you
    is me giving you a cue on what I think is "wrong" with depressed people:
    depressed people invalidate themselves,
    this is how they stay depressed.

    I have stated my opinion objectively before, in third person, in the form "depressed people invalidate themselves, this is how they stay depressed" or in the form "If one ... then one."

    You didn't like that form, you took it personally, as if I said "You are invalidating yourself, this is how you stay depressed."

    You are not capable of having an impersonal, objective discussion of opinions on the topic. Because you take it personally.
    So I thought okay, let's talk personally then, see how that goes.

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