I advised editing out the person-to-person comments in the OP...so I am henceforth choosing to address the thread title here. As I think the subject is worth addressing Mental illness is often seen as a personal failure, rather than a brain disorder. There's a lot of denialism. There's a lot of blaming-the-victim going on. Every day on the other sites I visit I hear how psych meds are poison, or mind-control, well, actually they are mind-control. But without them your mind tends to be completely out of control. They represent a crude solution. There's a lot of nonsense out there...and a lot of stigma. And yes, I encounter people who think schizophrenia can be cured by sunshine and vitamins. Makes you wonder who's crazy, it does. Jani has a severe case of schizophrenia...but most schizo-spectrum people...are among you. Being successfully treated, working, being a functional part of society. The guy who I used to talk to... was giving up his dream of being a doctor...was still going to be a professor, though he clearly had schizophrenia. Most manic-depressives...the same. Mental illness is more often treatable than not. I had one of the many resident psychiatrists who treated me, and he seemed all impressed that I had a full-time job... Never mind that six months before...I'd had a full-time job, plus picking up overtime, plus in school part-time...and he would not up my meds... I was trying to get back to where I was six months ago; he thought I was doing great...:wallbang: So, even to the people who treat us, we're not expected to do very much except suck in air and down resources. They may not expect us to overcome, and may not help us to do so, even though we pay them to.
The brain disorder could be the result of "personal failure". This is one way to see it. Another way to see it is that the idea attempts to be related that people can and should take responsibility for their lives. I have the impression that many people who have a "mental illness" believe that the whole point of normalcy is to become some kind of robot. And in their efforts to "get better," they are trying to become like robots - to not feelwhat they are feeling, to not think what they are thinking, but just to "go along with the mainstream." It is this - perverted - idea of normalcy that may be what is actually ill about them. And then there is learned helplessness. Especially in terms of mental illness, there may be things that people are reasonably expected to do themselves - things that others cannot provide for them.
No one has said otherwise. Which is why this thread is really, well, funny as shit. Asguard is complaining about something that actually never happened. No one has said that there is not a stigma with mental illness. We know there is. Many of us have experienced it. We know the problems that exist in the system. We know of the public opinion, the sneers, the comments. Look at Jani as a prime example. The child is having a psychotic episode and people tell the parents they are bad parents for not smacking her then call them bad parents when they describe their smacking her. We know there is no win/win solution with mental illness and with conditions like depression.
Eh, it's like any other chronic bad illness...it has to be managed. I linked evidence of degenerative brain changes in the last thread. Here's one that looks at childhood schizophrenia: http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/oct97/nimh-14.htm Bipolar people lose gray matter faster: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6907050.stm And seem to have a metabolic variance: http://psychcentral.com/news/2008/02/06/biomarker-for-bipolar/1882.html In depression (relinking) there seem to be an abnormality in two types of brain cells: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/05/990505071039.htm And it's been associated with thinning of the right cortex (if I remember correctly, memories are formed on the outer surface...why when I was once knocked out from a blow to the forehead, I don't remember the preceding few seconds.) http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/25/health/25brain.html And in a side-note...ketamine...gawd I hope this gets to be an approved use... http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v475/n7354/full/nature10130.html
I think you've missed the point entirely. It's not that one illness is worse than another or even comparable, it's peoples *perception* of the illnesses and the majority reaction towards them that differs. It leads to thinking that "at least if I had 'x' problem they'd (probably)understand"; and usuallly it's easier to understand physical illness than psychological illness as it's considered more visable and testable. I don't think it's unfair to say there are more people ignorant of the causes and effects of depression and other mental illnesses than many physical illnesses, even if there are many equally ignorant of both. This variance in perception and the way it causes people it act is what VI was refering to. Fact of the matter is we don't get to choose our diseases, so we should really be educating people better on them.
People understood when I was suffering from vertigo. People are always understanding when I have physical injuries even though they're usually from activities I CHOSE to do. Because vertigo and dislocations are something people understand easily. There's very little perspective taking involved; it's pretty easy to understand that it SUCKS when your vestibular system malfunctions and you can't even make it across the room without falling. It's easy to understand that it sucks to get your rotator cuff mauled up while wrestling in judo class. Those are things people can instantly relate to. It's not about sympathy so much as with physical shit, people treat you the same. Nobody criticized me for having vertigo attacks. Nobody blamed my dislocated shoulder on my personal shortcomings or told me if only I'd show more willpower those connective tissues would heal. Yes, I would take those things over being unalterably emotionally miserable, whether it was from a mental disorder itself or because people blamed me for what was wrong and I had to constantly defend myself against blame and ignorance. I could still be happy with my life, be productive and contribute to the lives of others around me when I had those things. Now yes, there's a cutoff point. You did notice this line by me Yes, I'd probably pick having depression over, say, cancer, or Addison's disease, or diabetes. But I do understand why someone would pick physical illness over one that's purely mental because at least you don't have to deal with people blaming it on you.
Funny you should mention that.. Antipsychotics are used in cases of treatment-resistant depression...and one of the side-effects of long-term use of them can be...diabetes. Contemplating... Note that schizophrenics are more at risk, they are going to be on higher doses. I'd like to try lithium, but the county docs will not ok this for depression...it's cheap, but you have to get blood levels done. Right! I like to make the joke "Do diabetics get to hear 'it's all in your pancreas, just snap out out of it'?" But if y'all follow the links I've provided, there seems to be evidence that metabolic errors may be the problem for mental disorders. Certainly physical changes occur in the brain in mental disorders, corresponding to type.
That may be so in your particular case. I am sure there are also many people who would say something like "Suits you right!" - although this is considered so rude that they'd probably just think it, not say it.
It makes just slightly less sense to blame the mentally ill for their illness, yet people certainly seem to. Injuries are often a part of living life to the fullest.:shrug: I would assume most people get this, and if they don't...Oh well. I don't consider their opinions valid in that case. If someone told me that it suits me right for doing whatever...I'd probably laugh and agree. But when I'm severely depressed I'm really vulnerable to criticism...you said something to me that's now imbedded in the negative self-dialogue I get during a depressive downspike...probably be there for years, making me feel crappy. My brain had plenty of ammo, but you gave it another stick to whack me with... I will actually shout aloud at times to stop this negative dialogue, but once it gets rolling it's very hard to stop. Being told I'm to blame for feeling like s**t definitely makes me worse. Signal, I don't know if you meant to do that? but that's how it was received. Now telling me I can do things to get out of the depression...there's a subtle but crucial difference. That's why I try not to click on the "read post" button anymore with you, 9 out of ten posts are ok...the tenth one... I probably am doing us both a disservice again by speaking to you...and I resolved to stop, but it's quite hard to participate in a thread you're active in and not read your posts. Kind of a dilemma, this.
Which example are you talking about? Vertigo, or injuries from activities I freely chose to do? Now you mention it, someone actually did tell me to 'just suck up' a vertigo attack...lol...I wonder how you do that?
It is not necessarily or simply blame, though. More often, it is probably an indication that the "mentally ill" can and should do something about their state. What exactly was it? If I gave you the thought - I may have more power over it than you have so far thought. This is not how I meant it, but I can understand that this is how it was received. Yes. A while back, you yourself told me I needn't hold back. I don't think so. Heh. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! We have to face eventually that we don't want to be undepressed. Terrible things might happen to us if we're not depressed! We have our identity in this process of depressing. We are afraid that if we stop, we won't know how to be, won't know who to be, won't know what life will expect. It is safer and more comfortable to continue with the depressing than risk the freedom. Depression can happen when we try not to be unhappy. We want to go from one peak to the next without traveling through the valleys below. Feeling guilty over being how you are does nothing but rob you of your life. It is okay to feel whatever you feel think whatever you think be however you are. Guilt and fear keep us from knowing our True Self, our intrinsic purity and goodness, the Divine within us. (From Cheri Huber's Depression Book)
Both, but especially the latter. If you were an advanced meditator, surely you could do it. Not to mention that it would be a very good thing to control even a spell of vertigo.
Yes, it would. Unfortunately there's not a whole lot you can do when your vestibular system is malfunctioning, and even if you could learn it, that would take TIME. Expecting someone to simply shrug it off is being fucking irresponsible. He did not mean learn to control it, he meant stop being a pussy and don't even mention it.
Then, if dealing with the mentally ill, I would (and do) state that explicitly. I talk to a lot of other suicidal people, and eventually I will say something like "I care, and I can listen to you vent, but I really can't help unless you do something." I try to be a lot less pushy about what that something is than I used to be, as I really have no idea what will work for that person in many cases. I offer a bunch of ideas, but also ask them what they think, what they are willing to do. It's important that whatever they do, the person take ownership...that is, they feel in charge of what's going on. Otherwise it's a lot less likely to work. "wallowing in it" What this means to me is not only that I feel horrible, but that I am entirely responsible for feeling horrible. This is why I keep responding with evidence that what's going on is physiological in nature. Over and over. You have yet to acknowledge this and keep telling me things that read to me as if you are saying it is entirely my fault, and entirely based on my thought process. This is why I think it's better that I put you on ignore and leave you there. I do not think asking you to censor yourself is fair to you. That's an impingement on your rights as an equal here. But I don't want to hear how I'm to blame for being severely depressed, for being sexually abused and having rather extreme mental aftereffects, for not being able to just magically be all peachy after having a childhood of being used as a human blow-up doll and punching bag. I am quite angry and hurt, yes. Sorry. Yes. Regarding this quote...I became depressed at ten, suicidally ideating by 11...not put on antidepressants unti right before I turned 17... I had to deal with wondering who the hell I was when I was first successfully treated with antidepressants and therapy. I've transformed myself multiple times since then, such that I'm convinced I have no real solid identity...because I have experienced shifting it so much. No matter who I am and what I have done to change my mentation, including EMDR, meditation, journaling, losing 120 pounds, an exercise habit, digging up a ton of repressed memories, years of therapy AND the latest in pharmaceutical fashions...I STILL feel like battered batsh!t some days. And for this you tell me I'm at fault. My problem I'll accept. Fault? Right now I'm dinking away at a DBT workbook...one of the core skills is "distress tolerance." In other words, I can't get rid of the crappiness; I therefore have to learn advanced ways of putting up with it.
Don't mind him. You're talking to someone who thinks a good way to solve a vertigo attack is to shut up about it and stop bothering people.
you know whats sad about this thread, it shows exactly what that artical (which i doubt any of you bothered to read) was talking about. I wonder if anyone will actually watch\ read this (i hope you can but i dont know wether the ABC lets internationals watch its stuff) http://www.abc.net.au/tv/enoughrope/interactive/angelsanddemons/ yes its broken up into various videos but its all one show and i challange anyone to watch the whole thing and then say there views on mental illness are the same. there was also a bit in the program "All in the mind" on angels and demons http://blogs.abc.net.au/allinthemind/2008/03/angels-and-demo.html Oh and one specific comment to bells on treatment. No bells, im not currently being treated and do you want to know why? Because the goverment in its infinit wisdom decided that you can have 10 sesions a year and thats it, no matter what you are like, no matter if your standing on the edge ready to jump you cant get any more psycologist visits. Just imagin if the goverment decided to (for budgetry reasons) make chemo a fixed amount. You may have 10 sesions of chemo and then if that hasnt worked, well thats to bad, you have to wait a full year before you can have anymore. And im not on any antidepressants either, because every medication i have tried does this to me http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_ejaculation Besides the fact that the arguments which come from PB when i cant get off, and the fact she then blames me and the huge fights ect (which is great on top of being depressed already) we are trying to have kids and its impossible with that. So no, i cant get any help unless i was to get so bad that i had to be commited and even then it would mean just waiting in a waiting room for hours on end (probably for around 48 hours, thats the adverage time pts i have been transfering have reported), while being ignored by the staff while they deal with "real pts". At the end of it i would see a shrink who would then refer me to a psycologist who i cant see because of the goverments cost saving measures and then send me out the door. Thats the standed of care for suicidle depression in the current health system, but im lucky. Im not a cutter, because if i was i would probably be sown up with no anesetic because "that will teach him", or left bleeding for hours because "he did it to himself, worrry about the REAL cases". Bells you stated you had depression for 6months related to your diognosis, that is sad, commen and probably treatable. I (and chimpkin and heeps of others) have suffered it for YEARS. In my case i have double depression http://www.depressionplace.com/dysthymia.html http://www.depressionplace.com/double_depression.html Its constant and ongoing FOREVER. Not 6 months. I surpose you could liken it to a women with gestational diabetes telling an insulin dependent diabetic that depression isnt so bad and that they know everything about living with diabeties because they have had it for 9 months and then it went away when the baby was born. You chose to see it as either something tacked on the end of something else (as shown by your list) or as somehow mild and irrelivent. I suggest you watch those videos bells, and see what its really like.
Asguard, pause a minute...I think you are invalidating Bell's hell. I don't know that she's equally invalidating yours. Admittedly, six months of Major Depressive Disorder is just a dip in the pool, but add the whole package...pretty damn miserable. I seem to remember something about neuro effects of chemo: "chemo brain." OTOH the first time I was depressed, for that four years I was literally spending an average of a couple hours a day hating myself for not having the courage to commit suicide. Great place for an 11-year old to be... I was too scared at the time, but thought I really needed to die for the good of humanity. Therapy was tried...it wasn't until I was put on prozac that I got better. Cancer...is going to be intensely miserable. If it goes into remission...then thank goodness. Hopefully stays there. Depression alone...probably a little less intensely miserable...might or might not go into remission. I've had better years. But more chronic. Questioning your own sanity isn't fun either. Pretty nasty.
Not in the least, depression is one of the most devistating diseases wether it lasts 2 weeks (the min i belive nessary for a diognosis of depression) or forever but mutiple times she has implied im attention seeking for saying i would rather have cancer than depression (and then she went on to compleatly missquote me and said that i wish i had cancer to get some sympathy) and she held up her experiance with 6 months of depression as proof that depression is nothing. I think she is being childish with her whole attitude but im trying to explain how 6 months is hell but how forever is much much worse. I herd a quote recently in a movie which says hell isnt bad because of the pain, its not bad because of the fire, its bad because it never ends (something like that anyway). THAT is what im trying to convey to her.
