Meditation

Discussion in 'Health & Fitness' started by Bowser, Oct 7, 2017.

  1. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    There is no "act" of liberation. All actions of the conscious mind reinforce it, not liberate us from it.
    That won't help either.
    Even illusions are based on some sort of perception. Something is there, but it's not what we think it is.
    There is no work possible to this end. That's the basic conundrum of zen. Purifying the mind can only be an action of the mind, and is thus impure.
    Agree to some extent. The mind never goes away, but that's fine as long as we know it's just a utilitarian construct of the brain, an edifice of thought that is not our true self and is created by something we cannot know.
    Once the bubble is broken, that's it. You can never again take "mindfulness" seriously. Where is this mind that I can be full of it? At best, it's a useful trick, like Buddhism itself. As the saying goes, the raft lets you cross the river, but it's pointless to then carry it around on your head.
    It's the only kind of existence there is.
    The mind can be conflicted, but the body knows best. I'm sure there are situations where you need a mind to solve a problem, I'm not concerned with such issues, they are beside the point.
     
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  3. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    Agreed.
    Agreed.
    I can't speak for all, but possibly there is room for an individual to jump off the hamster wheel. The question is whether it's worth doing what we want to do, even if that involves being hungry; or doing what we hate, simply because we are well fed.

    What do you watch online? Is it drama?

    Eliminating one's self and seeing the whole as the true self might be the point. Would you agree?

    I don't think it's an elimination of one's self, but a better understanding of one's self.
    https://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/976/258/320/donkey.gif
     
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  5. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    To quote Marx (quite a good historian but a terrible prophet), the means of production determine political relationships.
    In short, opting out of an industrial economy in is easier said than done.

    Sometimes

    The "whole" what?
    There is part of us that is the same as everyone else (if we were radically different communication would be impossible) but we also have recourse to a private world that no one else (except God) has recourse to.
    Eliminating this private world is as much an imagination as the notion of being the ruler of the public world.

    I would argue that an important part of that understanding is understanding the role action, born of desire, plays.
    In otherwords, at the end of the day, its how and why you act in this world that matters. Advocates of the philosophy of inaction (or restraint of desire) merely offer a modicum of benefit for those who are inevitably stuck in modes of self destruction. Ultimately we require a positive alternative, because act we must.
     
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  7. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    We'll always be consumers. It's the environment in which we live. You're right, there is no way of escaping that fact. But you reach a point where having stuff simply for the sake of having stuff doesn't really satisfy the spirit.

    What is. it is you, me, and everything else. What else is there?
    We are individuals and are the whole. There's a saying that not one particle of dust has been misplaced. Would you agree?

    Dharma? Is it true that every act of good intention results in a positive reaction?
     
  8. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    Who's doing that? I suppose there are forms of meditation that are not associated with what I'm talking about, but it's a misunderstanding to think that zen promotes inaction. Beginner practices may emphasize conscious restraint of desire, but it's a temporary exercise until one gets the source of desire. If you are lucky enough to realize we are not our minds, then it's also easier to ignore it's desires.
     
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  9. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    The eightfold path suggests otherwise
    It offers a moment to refrain (from ignorance) and the opportunity to change perspective. If one doesn't change persoective, then yes, it doesn't really help.

    I am not advocating this as the best plan of action. I am just explaining why people do it and its scope for benefit.
    The question is whether the "something" even illusions are based on, has a "real" or "false" basis.
    In otherwords, whether perception of the world has, at its core, reality or illusion.
    Then you have the view that the mind (and its contingent agencies/actions, like desire) are constitutionally impure.

    Utilitarian construct? Utilized for what? Illusion?
    Also you just said that the mind is constructed by the brain yet the mind is also created by something we cannot know.
    Maybe there is a better way you can say this.
    Yes, that's the theory. I am just wondering about the practice.
    Which is why labelling it as illusion is quite catastrophic.
    When you say the body knows best, what is doing the "knowing" here? (The body, divorced from the mind, doesnt have an obvious agency of knowing)
     
  10. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    If I (and everyone else) have recourse to a private world you don't have access to, how do you propose to become whole with this?


    Panentheism, or the notion that God pervades everything while simultaneously maintaing an identity greater than the sum of the parts, also resolves this problem.
    Otherwise you are left with the problem of trying to explain what a misplaced or properly placed particle of dust would even look like.

    The dharma (essence) of action, yes.
    As far as results go, I am just talking about what is within our scope to control. There are factors that determine results that are beyond our control.
     
  11. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    Certainly I can't read your mind.

    Or reach the conclusion that it is exactly where it should be.

    Kind of like a Chinese pinball machine?
     
  12. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    And if I (and everyone else here) cannot read yours, then there is an apparent problem in holistically integrating everything.

    If you, me, or any collective "us" doesn't have the scope to put particles of dust in their "proper" place, how could the statement " not one particle of dust has been misplaced" be meaningful?

    The chinese pinball analogy would lie in unpacking what agency we use to determine what is a good intention and what is a positive result.
    If, as you say, life is fatal, what sort of positive result would you see as adequate reciprocation for a good intention?
     
  13. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    I think we reached this in another thread, something about ignorance and knowledge, where my point was that all knowledge is contained within a collective conscious, yours being part of the overall picture.

    I suppose you could move it and say, "There! Now it's in the right place!" {EDIT} And you would be right.

    I suppose you could view it either way: a reminder that life should be lived, or that death is on your doorstep. What intention would you like it to imply?
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  14. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    And how would that make it the "right" place? And what if other disagree with the place you put it?
    This is the problem with the (headless) collective conscious model : it doesn't resolve conflict.

    I'm asking that given the parameters of life (that it is lived until we die), what would you see as approoriate reciprocation (by God, who controls everything else outside of our intentions) for acting with good intention?
     
  15. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    Conflict seems to resolve itself. Even though you and I might disagree, there's a larger world out there. We're just two fools on a ship of fools, yet we manage to keep sailing along.

    Should I assume the role of God?
     
  16. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    I agree, there is a larger world out there. But if the notion of "proper" is ultimately a consequence of a ship of fools (or perhaps the most threatening fool), that makes for a very weak form of the term "proper".

    I'm not sure how assuming such a role would help one control things that are beyond one's ability.
    What would it mean to call one's self "God" if one is still susceptible to tooth aches?
     
  17. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    Yet there it is. People with good intentions have tried to change it, yet there it is. The drama continues, and will do so long after you and I are gone.

    I have no idea. Would we reach that goal if we controlled the world?
     
  18. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    So either the result of good intentions follows the logic of a chinese pinball or the parameters of theodicy incorporate a broader scope than this world of perennial dramas.




    If our goal was to become God, then yes, that would be a good start .... of course given that we stumble at the point of tooth aches, it's not clear whether it is an intelligent goal
     
  19. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    If you want to break it down into bits and pieces. I'm not saying you can't try acting "proper." However, the consequence might not be what you expect.

    Or maybe the world has its own agenda, one that isn't fallen by toothaches.
     
  20. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    My point is, just as we are not the final agencies in directing the consequences of action , we are also not the final agencies in establishing what constitutes the right intention.

    A collective of individuals that are not the final agency cannot surmount this limitation by any sort of cooperative appeal. One doesn't surmount the designation of being infinitesimal by playing a numbers game.
     
  21. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    Is there a higher authority that you wish to petition in an effort to resolve the paradox?

    Okay...?
     
  22. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    Not so much petition a higher authority, but meditate upon it. If the point of meditation is to get control of the mind's ability to give false form, there's an obvious advantage in breaking the minds tendency to engineer problems by viewing itself as the highest authority.
     
  23. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    Is that your reason for meditation?
     

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