Measuring the curvature of spacetime

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by Plazma Inferno!, Dec 28, 2015.

  1. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    "Mass tells space how to curve, and space tells mass how to move" is from here:
    https://einstein.stanford.edu/SPACETIME/spacetime2.html

    The other quote, no longer available anywhere, seems to have moved down the road a bit since the last time I visited. Interesting.

    OK. Here:

    https://www.researchgate.net/post/S...ass_should_be_equal_to_the_gravitational_mass

    A whole conversation in which every respondent agrees with what I said about the principle of equivalence and Higgs. NOT just one. It just goes on for miles and miles and miles. Compared to these august and knowledgable physics folks at research gate, Sciforum folks are all sounding like they are from backwoods Pixly (near Bugtussel), edjumucated back thar too!
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2016
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  3. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    And ladies and gentlemen, there he goes again! Telling those on a science forum, that validated scientific claims is bullshit: Yet he says he does not do it to inflame...nor is he religiously driven, he just expects all and sundry to acknowledge his genius:
    Then he cries "victim", when he perceives any refutation of his nonsense as an insult.
    Like other cranks and god botherers before you Bds, words are shit easy....and yours are shitier then most.
    You have a claim, then present it along with a scientific paper to be reviewed by your peers. Otherwise like the few others before you, you are pissing into the wind...a total waste of cyber space in which your nonsensical claims like your mythical support, will fade into oblivion.
     
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  5. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    I actually disagree with most things you say and tell you that. Other times your efforts are just plain techno babble and unecessarilary complicated and really not worth a comment.
     
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  7. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    Well, I like the sound of that! I hope you're not just saying that to make me feel good, are you? Oh, rats!
     
  8. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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  9. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Totally agree.....
    And who ever disputed that? I mean its as common and as well know as any quote could be. I've used it many times. [John Wheeler]
    You are really sinking into "the god"territory with unsupported claims and such, bordering on lying.
    You see the title of this thread? Good.
    Spacetime has most certainly been measured, at least the curvature and warping in the presence of mass/energy, not forgetting frame dragging.
    You seem to be fence straggling, supporting GR one minute, then falling in the cesspool with nonsense the next minute.
     
  10. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Your posts are beginning to reflect a flippancy to presumably over ride the confusion that is so evident.
     
  11. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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  12. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    And personally, I have not discussed the Higgs at all in this thread. From memory you raised it in one of your usual efforts to complicate the simple fact that spacetime firstly is real...at least as real as space and time looked at separately and it certainly reacts to mass/energy in a geometric fashion.

    TIP: Go back to the beginning, look at the question and than tell me what you are claiming.
     
  13. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Since we, [well dan anyway] for some reason raised the Higgs, here's another paper........
    http://arxiv.org/pdf/1506.08366v3.pdf
    False Vacuum Higgs Inflation and the Graviweak Unification


    Abstract
    In the present paper we develop a model of the Higgs inflation based on the nonminimal coupling of the Higgs boson to gravity predicted by Graviweak Unification. But later we get rid of the non-minimal coupling to gravity by making the conformal transformation from the Jordan frame to the Einstein frame. We construct a selfconsistent Spin(4, 4)-invariant model of the unification of gravity with weak SU(2) interactions in the assumption of the existence of visible and invisible sectors of the Universe. Assuming the interaction between the ordinary and mirror Higgs fields, we develop a special Hybrid model of inflation. According to this model, the inflaton starts trapped from the false vacuum of the Universe at the Higgs field VEV v ∼ 1018 GeV (in the visible world). Then the inflations of the two Higgs doublet fields, visible φ and mirror φ ′ , lead to the emergence of the Standard Model vacua at the Electroweak scales with the Higgs boson VEVs v 1 ≈ 246 GeV and v ′1 = ζv 1 in the visible and invisible worlds, respectively. Considering the results of cosmology and calculating the number of e-folds N ∗ , we predict ζ ≃ 100 −115 for N ∗ ≃ 50 −60, in agreement with previous results of the model with broken mirror parity. We also consider RGEs, taking into account the mixing term - the interaction between the ordinary and mirror Higgs bosons, assuming the smallness of the mixing coupling.


    Summary and Conclusions
    1. Using the Plebanski’s formulation of gravity, we constructed the Graviweak Uni- fication (GWU) model, which is invariant under the G(GW U) = Spin(4, 4)-group, isomorphic to the SO(4, 4)-group. Graviweak Unification is a model unifying gravity with the weak SU(2) gauge and Higgs fields.

    2. Considering the Graviweak symmetry breaking, we have obtained the following subalgebras: ge1 = sl(2, C) (grav) L ⊕su(2)L – in the ordinary world, and ge′ 1 = sl′ (2, C) (grav) R ⊕ su′ (2)R – in the hidden world. These sub-algebras contain the self-dual left-handed gravity in the OW, and the anti-self-dual right-handed gravity in the MW. We showed, that finally at low energies we have the Standard Model and the EinsteinHilbert’s gravity.

    3. We discussed the existence of de Sitter solutions at the early time of acceleration era of the Universe. It was shown that in the ordinary world the VEV v ∼ 1018 GeV of ”the false vacuum” is given by the relation v = R0/3. Here R0 = 12/r2 dS, where rdS is the radius of the constant curvature of the de Sitter background space.

    4. We considered the Multiple Point Principle (MPP), which postulates that the Nature has the Multiple Critical Point (MCP). The MPP-model predicts the existence of several degenerate vacua in the Universe, all having zero, or almost zero cosmological constants.

    5. We reviewed the Multiple Point Model (MPM) by D.L. Bennett and H.B.Nielsen. We showed that the existence of two vacua into the SM: the first one – at the Electroweak scale (v1 ≃ 246 GeV), and the second one – at the Planck scale (v2 ∼ 1018 GeV), was confirmed by calculations of the Higgs effective potential in the 2- loop and 3-loop approximations. The Froggatt-Nielsen’s prediction of the top-quark and Higgs masses was obtained in the assumption that there exist two degenerate vacua into the SM.

    6. In contrast to other theories of unification, we accepted an assumption of the existence of visible and invisible (hidden) sectors of the Universe. We gave arguments that modern astrophysical and cosmological measurements lead to a model of the Mirror World with a broken Mirror Parity (MP), in which the Higgs VEVs of the visible and invisible worlds are not equal: hφi = v, hφ ′ i = v ′ and v 6= v ′ . We considered a parameter characterizing the violation of the MP: ζ = v ′/v ≫ 1, using the result: ζ ∼ 100 obtained by Z. Berezhiani and his collaborators.

    7. In our model we showed that the action for gravitational and SU(2) Yang–Mills and Higgs fields, constructed in the ordinary world (OW), has a modified duplication for the hidden (mirror) world (MW) of the Universe.

    8. We have developed a model of the Higgs inflation using the GWU action, which contains a non-minimal coupling of the Higgs field with gravity, suggested by F. Bezrukov and M. Shaposhnikov. According to our model, a scalar field σ, being an inflaton, starts trapped from the ”false vacuum” of the Universe at the value of the Higgs field’s VEV v = v2 ∼ 1018 GeV. Considering the expansion of GWU Lagrangian in powers of small values of σ/v, we get rid of the non-minimal coupling to gravity by making the conformal transformation from the Jordan frame to the Einstein frame.

    9. We have used the Sidharth’s prediction about the existence of the discrete spacetime at the Planck scale and his idea of non-commutativity, which provides an almost zero cosmological constant. This result was applied to our GWU model of the Higgs inflation.

    10. We assumed that during inflation inflaton σ decays into the two Higgs doublets of the SM: σ → φ †φ.

    11. Taking into account the interaction between the initial ordinary and mirror Higgs fields: αh(φ †φ)(φ ′† φ ′ ), we constructed a Hybrid model of the Higgs inflation in the Universe. Such an interaction leads to the emergence of the SM vacua at the EW scales: with the Higgs boson VEVs v1 ≈ 246 GeV – in the OW, and v ′ 1 = ζv1 – in the MW.

    12. We have shown that our GWU model of the Higgs inflation is in agreement with modern predictions of cosmology. We have calculated the expression for a number of e-folds N∗ and have obtained the following result for the MW parameter ζ: ζ ≃ 4N∗ v 2 ≃ 100 − 115 for N ∗ ≃ 50 − 60, in agreement with previous estimations predicted ζ ∼ 100. This means that cosmology is consistent with our GWU model of inflation.

    13. We have calculated the renormalization group equations (RGEs) in the assumption that there exists the interaction between the ordinary and mirror Higgs bosons. We discussed the possibility of small values of parameters λ ′ and αh with aim not to change essentially the results of the 2-, or 3-loop calculations of the Higgs mass. We assumed that near the Planck scale parameters αh, λ and λ ′ (according to the MPP) are very small. Therefore, the influence of the modified RGEs is not essential for the 2-, or 3-loop results of Refs. [46, 49].
     
  14. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    And why would you link us to something like this?

    "5 Mirror world with broken mirror parity

    As it was noted at the beginning of this paper, we assumed the parallel existence in the Nature of the visible (OW) and invisible (MW) (mirror) worlds... "

    …Hidden (mirror) world (MW)? … duplication of the Universe? a "mirror" Higgs field? We don't even understand the first thing about the original one. It's current though; published on Jan 7, 2016, the occasion of Kim and Elvis' birthdays. Maybe mirror Kim and mirror Elvis can celebrate Higgs together in that mirror universe.

    Damn. And these guys claim I'm a nut ball.
     
  15. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    I claim nothing: You are doing a pretty good job of that yourself.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
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  16. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    What is really starting to scare me is, I can think of two ways that last link of yours might actually make sense.

    A steady diet of that kind of science tripe must be toxic or something. No wonder no sane person really wants to review it.
     
  17. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    And what have you ever had reviewed or cited my friend.
    As I once told Schmelzer, with regards to his own paper, there are many purely hypothetical papers out there with reputable publishers, that are seen and then forgotten, but that's better than never being seen at all, to ever be forgotten, is it not.
     
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  18. brucep Valued Senior Member

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    That reminds me of the mirror dark matter standard model of dark mattere particles. The Higgs boson and it's hidden mirror partner. Except this model predicts a broken mirror parity between the visible and hidden Higgs.
    http://arxiv.org/abs/1401.3965
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2016
  19. The God Valued Senior Member

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  20. PhysBang Valued Senior Member

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    Great, you found an analogy that has nothing whatsoever to do with the Higgs field.

    Great, you found a question that somebody asked.

    No. Not one person agrees with your position.

    They all say that the equivalence of rest mass and inertial mass is a feature of GR that has nothing to do with the Higgs field except that the inertial mass given by the Higgs field is equivalent in just the same way that the inertial mass generated by any other field is equivalent.

    How you can imagine that these people are saying things that back up your claim is baffling.
     
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  21. brucep Valued Senior Member

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    It's probably because he's caught in a closed loop brain fart. Messes up your ability to do physics.
     
  22. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    You've made TWO principles of equivalence where before there was only one. Nice going, PhysBang.

    But your responses otherwise are reasonable, well considered, and noted. Nice.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2016
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  23. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    I had almost forgotten, I do have one paper published in a peer reviewed journal (co-wrote, actually). But it was about computer science, not physics, and like this thread, has long since lost any of its entertainment value.
     
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