Masculinity and men

Now, the question is, do you have Girls Gone Wild commercials on your television stations? I'm doubting it, but they are devious.

 

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Ladies and gentlemen (of both sexes),

Please give more views on what you or your culture think is 'masculine' and what is not!

And please feel free to analysise whatever has already been provided.

 

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Natural masculinity is of two parts, of the mind and of the body. Of the body, it's one's sex as male, whatever is physiologically distinct as male. Of the mind, it's simply understanding what's physiologically distinct of onelself as male. It's just facing one's distinct gender for what it is, no more no less.

Yes, because the "social notions" of masculinity aren't inherent in masculintity itself, like the presumptions as to what masculinty determines to be important for a male, and so what masuclinty supposedly determines to be unimportant as well.

It's harmful because if one's actual masculine nature is judged "not good enough", socially, or inadaquate, then one's social needs can't be met. If what one simply is exists behind a social masquerade, then to ask for what one needs in the name what one just is, won't work, not unless the misunderstandings can be dispelled first.

If the misunderstanding is a culture-wide issue, it's pretty hard if not impossible, to get past that issue with any particular person since they and you exist in that cultural context.

I take "social gender" to mean like whatever is assigned to a person because of their sex. I guess you are meaning the same thing as "social masculinty/femininity".

The the interpretation of one's physiological sex, that is of what one "ought" to do about it, that is that society takes the "is" of a person, "is male", and decides the corresponding "ought", what ought to be because of it. Society decides what one's sex is decisive of.

So the question is what are it's decisions about it. That would answer somewhat how it's manipulated.

I think possibly one of the basic decsions made about it regards social moral authority, that the role of a man is primarily about taking the job of deciding the right and wrong for others. Not just deciding it, but enforcing it. It's like they take the practical role of reward and punishment, like being fathers' and bosses, presidents and dictators. I mean moral authority in the militant sense, that of the enforcement of so-called moral "order" and such.

Because a man must be willing at all times to resort to force to make sure people do the "right" things, men are expected to take practical risks, disregarding personal physical safety, you know the "good soldier" thing. Enforcing moral authority is what war is about. The willingness to go to war requires a willingness to gamble with one's own physical well-being, and that takes a "real man". Because they are expected to be insensitive to their physical selves, they can't feel much emotionally about getting hurt. I mean if your physical self is something you have to be willing to sacrifice at any time, how emotional can you really be, or how caring of other men? I think that's also related to male circumcision. One's first initiation into life as a male is "taking it like a man" about pain, having imposed on you by someone else, to endure a physical violation of your being.

So, like, their sex lives? Could explain why social masculinity means indifference to the natural physical beauty of one's own sex. If the physical is denigrated in the manner like what I mentioned, then actually being able to appreciate one's own physical value - and not as a weapon or a sheild - but as a pleasure and a joy, well, that's going to be blocked.

 

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Very interesting.
Rather long, yes, but interesting.

 

Dearest Buddha, I shall surely analyze both masculinity and same-gender attractions.

In short, sports is masculine. Hunting I suppose is masculine, and is considered "sport". Heterosexuality is masculine. Saying "Wow! She's hot!" is masculine, but the effect is lost if no one hears you!
Sometimes violence can be masculine. It's an undesirable form, certainly, but being top dog and having the muscle to prove it is undoubtedly a masculine trait.
Being emotionally aloof is another trait I can think of. Unless the emotion is anger. Anger is very masculine.

Subtle homoeroticism is possibly also masculine, but overt expressions are frowned upon and seen as a weakness.
But it can also have very serious intentions that ask (or beg) to be addressed, but don't expect to be and possibly don't really care to be either, but nonetheless are expressed.

Fear of ridicule and being considered abnormal contradicts the sometimes incredible urges to be loved or desired by one of your own kind. Therefore it becomes a little play or running joke. It's hinted at often, but when the opportunity arises and the door is opened, no one will enter.
I know this from personal experience.

And why is this?

People commit suicide often because they are at odds with their own sexuality. People kill themselves because of homosexuality. Because of WHAT they're attracted to. I have never heard of anyone's suicide brought on by the mere fact that a person was attracted to the OPPOSITE gender. I have heard plenty about suicides brought on by being attracted to the SAME gender.

People have every incentive to be STRAIGHT (yes, Buddha, I mean heterosexual in the "western" sense ), but little if any incentive to be attracted to or to pursue real relationships with their own gender.

Why is faggot or homo a dirty word? A perfect example of the lack of incentive to be associated with anything dirty or imperfect or flawed.
Thus, a good assurance that people will continue to be conflicted with same-gender attractions.

I don't take my views to apply to every man, surely!
But I do not take them to apply to just men who identify with "gay" or "bisexual" labels.

 

And now Buddha, something I messaged you about earlier:

Would you explain further about that? Sports and masculine identity?

Or if you want to PM me, that's fine. It works here or there. I care not!

 

I'd do that Giambatista, but just as a note, this discussion on masculinity is not primarily about homosexuality, and I would like homosexuality to be discussed only as much as is important in this context.

 

That's a great insight Cross, and I agree, though I have certain doubts here and there which I'd like to raise soon.

The thing I don't agree with is the following:

Apparently, the human societies before the Christ era, did not see male-male sexual attraction as contrary to masculinity, or something that will come in the way of their being warriors or their steeling themselves up.

In fact, in the ancient Greek, sexual bonds between men were promoted primarily because it made better fighters out of men.

Ditto in the Samurai Warrior cultures which found same-sex bonds to add to the masculinity of the warriors.

Look at all the masculine traditions of the world. They emphasise on keeping away from women as a form of preserving their masculinity. But I do agree that in my society (which as been traditionally more or less semi-heterosexual -- as much as is possible in a society divided along gender lines), in the masculine wrestling traditions, open sexual interest between men is severely discouraged and peer-mechanisms have been put in place where same-sex acts (which are always equated with anal intercourse) are regularly denigrated and scoffed at through abusive and sometimes violent 'cliches'.

So if there is some truth in what you're saying its only partial, but worth looking into.

 

Since it has been a part of your discussions on and off since you started them, an integral part, I felt that I should throw it in. Because it is related to masculinity in a major way. Or better yet, masculinity is a major stumbling block to homosexuality/same-gender attraction, and vice-versa.

On faggot being a dirty word: why is that? Why are men afraid of being called that? Why is it a threat to their status as men? Is that NOT an issue of masculinity?
One cannot exalt heterosexuality as a masculine trait without something to hold it above. Something to measure against.

 

That is a very crucial question. If we can answer that, we would have identified a major part of the problem.

Why does social mascuilinity become a matter of life and death for men? Why does being challenged on social masculinity unnerves men, and makes them vulnerable?

The answer is not simple. It will have to be explored.

Faggot is a dirty word, because well, it is used in a dirty way. But it is not only with faggot. A more useful question would be, why are men scared to be called a 'girl'? 'Girl' is not a dirty word! Men are supposed to appreciate and like girls. So how come girl becomes dirty and unmentionable when used on men? How does it manage to break them? Calling a girl, a 'man' afterall will not break her. If anything she'll feel proud about it!

How do words like 'girl', 'faggot', etc. manage to break down the man instantly? What's it about these simple words? After all if someone calls me a 'pigeon', I'll not become a pigeon. Is it all in the minds of men? Is it because of men's exaggerated egos?

And why would someone want to call a man a 'girl'? Why would someone want to put down a man as a girl or a faggot or what not? What does he or she want to achieve?

Where do those who ridicule men get their powers from? Who invests them with those powers? Why?

AND THE BIGGEST QUESTION OF ALL:

Why do men put down each other with these words?

Secondary question:
Why do women put down men with such words?

What hurts most, when a man puts down or when a woman puts down?

Please do give your views, everyone!

 

Because if there's no attraction between men and women, the human race ceases to exist.

They're afraid that no girls will like them if they're girly.

They want all women.

Because they don't want them.

 

I don't think you've understood the questions at all!

 

We are not talking about sexual attraction here. We are talking about social masculinity. Social masculinity refers to the fake artificial masculinity, represented by certain roles and expectations artificially determined by the society for men. Procreation or the existence of human race is not dependant on the artificial and fake social mascuilnity.

 

phe!, pathetic, whiny men

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That's cute, but don't get all worked up.

The idea is to separate the real, positive and natural mascuilnity from the ugly, negative and fake masculinity that you're complaining about, and to bring it out. It can't really be bad for anyone.

Real, natural masculity does not harm anyone and is not pretentious. It's lovable.

 

What a cute punk rock dyke!

I love em.

 

So guys, to remind you of the questions raised by this thread:

How do words like 'girl', 'faggot', etc. manage to break down the man instantly? What's it about these simple words? After all if someone calls me a 'pigeon', I'll not become a pigeon. Is it all in the minds of men? Is it because of men's exaggerated egos?

And why would someone want to call a man a 'girl'? Why would someone want to put down a man as a girl or a faggot or what not? What does he or she want to achieve?

Where do those who ridicule men get their powers from? Who invests them with those powers? Why?

AND THE BIGGEST QUESTION OF ALL:

Why do men put down each other with these words?

Secondary question:
Why do women put down men with such words?

What hurts most, when a man puts down or when a woman puts down?

Please do give your views, everyone!

 

masculine:
1. hairy chest
2. a penis
3. able to bench press 350 pounds
4. hot rods ( cars )

feminine:
1. vagina
2. tits
3. having babies
4. only thing worth loving

 

So you admit you aren't worth loving? Should I feel sorry for the poor woman who has been duped into having a relationship with you?
Can it be said that she has poor judgement?

Or are you actually a woman?

 

Wait, he says only the feminine is worth loving. He hasn't said only women are worth loving. So it may mean that both feminine men and women are worth loving. And that femininity in all men (even in masculine gendered men is worth loving.)

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