Masculinity and Madness

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by WANDERER, Dec 31, 2004.

  1. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    4,779
    Fenris:

    Yes, at the “behest”, but your distortion here won't help any.

    At the ‘behest’ of me to you to answer Dr. Lou.
    Tell me Wolf, if I tell you I’d like a red dress but can’t find one the second you find one you’d tell me?
    I would.
    You've been wanting to debate Lou, remember Mr. "Wolf"? He ignored you in all the other threads, but not this one so I told you.
    Further- you’re dying to show those like Lou have nothing on a man who’s been trough Singapore or some other ‘brutal’ district where the natives hate themselves but kowtow to the white man.

    You know, the place where you can get the prettiest Polynesian by the simple act of your race, she likes the shape of your nose or the distinction of being with a white man and the dollar he’s holding so she’ll fuck you.
    A modern Lawrence who was nothing around his own people.

    And here is this boy giving that white man carpal tunnel because he only thinks he can when this white man has ‘been there’.
    Ever occur to you that the ‘been there’ guy is just as common as the ‘if only’ guy?
    You see a little filth and slaughter, a little “culture”, say, and think that experience?
    Even so, a scuffle here and there so common in beerhalls between commoners?
    Is that what you modern men call experience, life, reality?

    I wonder how many of those actual perpetrators- say the common thief in grand old Singapore who’s murdered the grocery boy- I wonder how many of those I’d find posting on a forum getting riled by a little boy named Dr. Lou.
    By a girl named Xev or Gendanken or Water or Wanda.

    At any rate, here was your chance to keep it between you and Lou- but no, no, you couldn’t help yourself.
    In the same way you couldn’t help yourself in a certain I Hate Men thread.
    In the same way you couldn’t help yourself in some Conformity thread.
    In the same way you couldn’t help yourself with the other you pushed away… and this one that’s pushed you.
    I see you nowhere but either doing that or pm’ing.

    Don’t you get it??!
    There was no need for you to even mention that.

    Its something like hearing the sexually starved sprinkle their entire conversation with some variant of sexuality.
    I wont’ say you’re ‘obsessed’ but what you see in that man you find threatening where in women you find it alluring.


    Fish?
    Careful there- it’s those self-destructive, inebriated ‘loners’ that have actually been with prostitutes that go around smelling like fish.

    Not me.

    No, its me.

    Yes, this could have been fun but you changed it.
    He’s talking about me you idiot.

    See, one would respect an exquisite bastard but a broken record is just fucking broken.

    And how quaint, concering this thread, to praise its target in order to get something- you know, like an old snap turtle wriggling his wormy.
    Grrrrrrrrrrrr!!

    Cole Grey,
    So this would make Naomi Wolf a man.
    Right?
    I don't see a reason for gender in it.

    All those one finds desperately involved in protesting their potential - as a feminist spends her life protesting a woman's equality or a white activist expending his energies defending the blacks- are those most insecure about their position.


    Its a symptom of inferiourity.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2005
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  3. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    Wanderer:
    Save Cannibal Corpse (which sucks), NO metal band is popular among women.
    What I like about metal could comprise a whole essay.

    The thing about metal, real metal, is that it is honest.
    Sincere.
    Right there.
    This - is not honest. It is the morbid love of pain or it is weeping and moping about.

    Sure, I'm not disputing that.

    Suicide's not my thing, never considered it.

    Bwahaha!
     
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  5. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    Not a metal head, but Dimmu Borgir is sweet.
    So not all women.
     
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  7. WANDERER Banned Banned

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    Xev
    So start a thread.
    This one is going to end soon.

    gendanken
    Peaceful coexistence has its perks.
     
  8. cole grey Hi Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,999
    Since people want to come on here and play "persona", at least have it be interesting... I want to see WATER play she-deathbeast. That would be fun. Even in her third language, I would predict long claws. Just to play, of course.

    **hint - if you guys want to show us that you don't care, don't talk about your "need" to come here, even if it is only temporary. Wanderer's and Fenris' actions speak louder than their words to me.**

    XEV- so do you think the male problem is not the impression of inner conflict, but the expression of it? Interesting when women are usually more expressive of their feelings and thoughts than men are. Why do women keep more silent on this? To hide the truth from their sons, who may tend to take it too far? To discourage their husbands, who are already taking it too far?
    Also, you like metal because it is honest. I think most of it is honest by being dumb. This doesn't mean it isn't valuable, I like my dog for the same reason.
    I agree that self-appreciated cleverness is usually worth less than stupidity. And, also, about metal- no genre excludes actual talent.

    GENDANKEN - Your description of the "been there" phenomenon is very insightful, I think.
    re: my post - I clearly stated that the questions would not be universally applicable among all women. But as to your statement, what about Neitzsche? A dark, painful, lonely existence that longs for a far off future world. Does this come from the same inferiority? The feeling that the world is oppressing you? Or is it the inner conflict Xev seems to think it is self-indulgent to express. Was Neitzsche just a person who followed this male madness to its end? I am specifically not talking about people who write about being oppressed by some certain environmental factors.
    I don't know whether any of the three possibilities of a connection are true, that is why I wanted to ask some people that might have other perceptions, and what about idea #1, and idea #2? I would be especially interested to hear from a female that holds out the pressure of idea #2 over her own head. I wonder if this is rare or just not discussed as much.

    FENRIS - A very thought-provoking discussion could take place without females involved, but it would lack personal female insight, so it might be less informative (if that were possible). Also, I would say it might lack the extraneous attacks, but I'm sure there would be plenty of heel-biting and inflammatory remarks, anyway.
     
  9. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    4,779
    (Cole Grey, you whiff of fresh air.)

    Good point.
    Women are a noisy bunch, so the noisiest male is a woman.
    That's the male 'problem'.

    But then again, the noisiest feminist is deemed 'butch', so this same logic destroys itself by making of her a man.
    So we can't make it a gender issue.
    Which leads back to the tenuous conclusion that those expressing a madness concerning identity are those most furious at not attaining what their gender, or race, or identity led them to expect.
    Hmmm.
    Image: the heir throwing a tantrum when he or she does not get their fortune.

    I see the man as enslaved to his brain- I don't see him as a male either cursing his fate or loathing his being oppressed.
    He was an aristocrat, you know.

    The feminist plays at proving herself and wants a dolled up world where everyone is equal as does the activist- because they're all fucking useless and know it.
    Fred I don't feel was aiming to 'prove' himself or his race or his gender, didn't really care for either really- he imagined a world of few equals with tons of unequals, he was a visionary of perfection so to speak.
     
  10. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    10,943
    cole gray:
    No, I think the problem is not the expression of it but the assumption that it is significant.

    Blah blah blah, women are this men are that, men are from mars and that explains my weensy dick.
    Let's stereotype the genders so we don't have to think!

    You know what you sound like?
    You sound like one of those people who explains being bad at math by saying that they are this or that kind of thinker.

    "I'm not bad at math because I'm dumb, it's because I'm a visual thinker!"

    Yah whatever.

    Worse than Wanderer, all "interested" in "how men and women differ" because you CAN'T. GET. LAID. and are very very FRUSTRATED.

    So of course you can feel your tepid masculinity by going "women are this and this and this" and "men are that and that and that" and "that means I'm this that and the other thing"

    Blah blah blah.

    That's a valuable comment.
    Saying something "is dumb" is always a good critique.

    Do you want to explain exactly what about Nietzsche's life was so dark, painful and lonely?

    See, there it is again - the whole image of the "dark, painful and lonely"
    Oooh, how romantic!
    This thread is like the mosh pit at a NIN concert.
    Ya pansies.

    Of course Nietzsche did not live a wholly "dark, painful and lonely" existence. He had awful lows - and awful highs.

    Cue the: OOOOH!
    How Gothic and intense
    I think I need to go read Anne Rice novels now.
     
  11. Fenris Wolf Banned Banned

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    Gendanken wins.
    Thread's dead.

    Carry on with the coverup though.
     
  12. cole grey Hi Valued Senior Member

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    1,999
    XEV - Wow. You missed me by miles. It doesn't seem to me that I am the one who is keeping the thread on a level where we don't have to think.
    Also, generally people are a certain type of thinker because they are too lazy to try any approach they aren't comfortable with. I am everything but a proponent of this.
    Also, I. can. get. laid. And I'm not frustrated in that way, as if I were expressing some kind of order to the male/female thing to control something that I have no control over in the physical. Honestly, because I don't have a serious relationship right now, I have no intense motivation to understand any woman anyway. I am interested in learning about other people's experience, gathering information, trying to figure a few things out about myself. It isn't about male/female, it is about humanity, but the idea put forth in this way is an approach. Sorry, if you think that it isn't important. I'll let you get back to your soap opera after this...

    Neitzsche, from zarathustra- "Not only the reason of millenia, but their madness too breaks out in us. It is dangerous to be an heir. Still we fight step by step with the giant, accident; and over the whole of humanity there has ruled so far only non-sense -- no sense."
    Sounds like a life filled with cameraderie. Nice thing about the "heir" Gendanken, how did you know I was going to turn to this page?
    "how high are my peaks, no one has told me yet, but my valleys I know well."
    Sounds fun.
    "O zarathustra, here is the great city; here you could find nothing and lose everything. Why do you want to wade through this mire? Have pity on your foot! Rather spit on the city gate and turn back. Here is a hell for hermit's thoughts; here great thoughts are boiled alive and cooked till they are small. Here all great feelings decay."
    Sounds lovely.

    The point I have is not about the man, but about his expression. The expression of a lonely exploration into a hopeful future existence which goes against all the norms, where even the followers are garbage because they are following. Are you actually going to tell me the guy made this stuff up without experiencing it? You. are. crazy.

    Also, if you look at it with a critical eye, I think you are smart enough to see what it is I find "dumb" about the genre of metal. This is an honest critique of the cliche'd metal props that are generally put into most of the music. The skull, the blood, the lack of midrange in the guitars, the "clicky" sounding kick drum, the album covers. It isn't a sweeping statement about all of the creators, or fans. But actually, now that I think of it, it is no less pretentious than most other genres of music.
     
  13. cole grey Hi Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,999
    Gendanken,

    Following your line of thought about what the problem is- do men think themselves more capable of doing great things, and therefore cry more when they are mediocre? Do they think they deserve more? Do you think women suffer as much from the distance between their goals and their achievements? Not an argument, just honestly look at the people you know, the intensity of their desires to achieve, and how much they seem to suffer from the need.
    I don't know, my sample group may have been skewed somehow, that is easy enough to believe. I do know that I wasn't begging the question with my friend because I was trying to point out to her that it may be a universal problem.
     
  14. water the sea Registered Senior Member

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  15. water the sea Registered Senior Member

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    Personally, this medium is a great challenge to me. In face to face communication, I concentrate on the non-verbal and paraverbal, I observe the gestures, mimic, and esp. the tone of voice. I react very emotionally, and if I am in an environment/relationship where the emotions are held in tight boundaries, tempered, I either become professional, or if it is a personal relationship, I don't feel well.

    But here, because of the nature of the medium, I don't get that non-verbal and paraverbal information anyway, so I am somewhat confused and I feel the communication is downscaled to a safe and comfortable level. So you usually see me rather cheerful, or "professional".

    Even if I do get angry, seeing the screen stops me from acting on it as I see fit. I can't scream here, I can't look furiously, and any verbal expression of this is just ridiculous to me, so I drop it, or it becomes something, ah, poetic.


    To play a persona? To try to be something you are not? Or to try to be something you are not in offline life?

    The problem with this medium and the forum predispositions (esp. the one about being able to post with several user accounts) is that identity is something much more undefined and undefinable in comparison to offline life. In a way, the medium offers one to play a persona, while at the same time the medium signals the reader that what he is reading is a persona, not a person. It's vicious.

    But maybe what he have here is Greek theatre revisited: Theatre for everyone. Only that we get to write our own parts.


    Bah.


    * * *


    Sweetie, I *am* an angel.


    * * *


    Witness the times before wars: The nation (that then started a war) was in an identity crisis, the prime example being Germany before WW1, and then esp. before WW2.

    Those who most fiercingly show off with their identity, brag with it, display it, enforce it, are the ones who seek their identity most gravely, doubt what they have, and lack identity, tremendously. Like modern American nationalism.
     
  16. WANDERER Banned Banned

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    water
    Who, symbolically and from this Forum, is the unlucky bastard in the painting and who the two women?

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    Xev
    This coming from someone that believes race defines an individual is interesting.

    If there is a genetic difference between individuals coming from different racial groups, that signifies an alternate historical path and a difference in environmental influences, then how is not gender just as decisive, if not more so?

    Maybe race determines potential but it does not force it.
    But gender is more relevant, since it’s effect is ongoing through hormones, as well as historical, through brain development and not only environmental and socially prescribed.

    I guess if you define yourself by how much access you have to sex, then that statement is cutting.
    If I were hungry and didn’t have enough money for a meal, would you accuse me of being frustrated then?
    Would you use it as a measuring stick?
    I think you would.

    But here there is more to it.
    The “You can’t get laid and you are sexually frustrated” is an angle you use often.
    Which either shows your own frustrations in this area or it is used as a deflected question:
    “You can’t get laid(?).”
    “You are frustrated(?).”

    A question that wants to be asked but that entails humbling repercussions by asking it.

    Are you saying, dear Xev, that all humans are equal and the same?
    Are you saying there are no distinguishing characteristics between beings?
    Quit a turnaround.

    gendanken
    Aren’t the most interesting individuals those that display characteristics from both genders?
    Isn’t that what gives them a more spherical perspective and does not limit them to machismo or prissiness?

    cole grey
    Yes, you are missing a lot.

    Men must prove, women find delight in their need to prove it, but are also interested in if they can.

    Masculine madness is found in the sexual drive that clouds reason into wanting to adapt to what women find attractive.
    Men adapt to what women find appealing.
    What women find appealing is genetically determined and socially moulded, making them, as I once said in another thread, cultural/genetic filtering systems.

    They allow what is deemed worthy, in any given historical time, access to procreation and close the door on the rest.
    So what do men do?
    They bob and weave and try to find what it is they want, because that is what the species finds beneficial at the time. And they force themselves into the mould, sometimes successfully and sometimes not.
    They hunt by studying the prey and adapting their strategies.
    Madness.


    Women accept whatever system they find and they become tools for it.
    In some cases they rebel against the present and dream about past systems, in which they believe more worthy males existed for them to belong to.
    There are, of course, exceptions to the rule.


    That’s because they find meaning and purpose in making themselves willing participants in any group.
    Lionesses defend their young from an attacking male, alongside the head male.
    But if he is deposed and replaced, they accept the loss of their brood and procreate with the new male.
    They know that their value is never diminished no matter who’s on top.
    For the male it’s a matter of survival.

    Yes, because in their function of adapting entities, they must be able to create successful strategies to make themselves relevant.
    In order to create a good strategy information is important.
    The more information that is taken into account, the more accurate and successful the strategy.
    In so doing they are exposed to far more information than women are.
    They must deal with much more darkness and their positions are much more precarious.

    Fenris
    No, because then there would be no male madness.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2005
  17. water the sea Registered Senior Member

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    Why an "unlucky bastard"?!
    He died by the hand of a woman. With a woman helper. That's lucky.



    As for who is who: Decide for yourself. We'll see how brave you are.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2005
  18. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    4,779
    Fenris Wolf:
    Right, right, “cover up”, incognito, my mosquito, Micheal sodomizes Tito.

    This is getting..sick.
    Just keep in mind though- this ~impeccable expert on the psychology of human beings~ has concluded that I’m one) blue blood two) Mephura.

    If you understand, you win.

    Cole Grey:
    I say it’s a fool that defines his worth on his heritage.
    So it’s a disenchanted fool- male or female, black, or green- that shudders at the impotence made brutally clear by reality.

    What happened to the English nobles in America, who were used to the privileges of their name back in Yorkshire, in the face of the capitalist need to survive? Decay.

    We’re an abstract phenomena- not genders. And both are capable of transcending the mere mammal in the same body.
    You just described people.
    I have yet to meet a truly happy person.

    Water:
    Precicely.
    150 years before the hippies, there were German schoolboys who took it to the extreme because they were youngsters.

    A brutalized nation was grasping-
    “Like the elders of both types and for the same reason, the youth in Germany were eager to serve the whole. This was true of the country’s organized youth groups, most of which, thanks to the chauvinism of the German school teachers, were avidly nationalist.
    Widely regarded as ‘gentle’ idealists, the German schoolboys acted out literally the ideas they had learned.”- Peikoff’s Omminous Parallels

    So the most in need of it, grow hysterical and self-righteous and base all their worth on that theory.
    Wanderer:
    Yes.

    But the far more interesting ones are those for whom neither becomes a limiting concern or obsession.
    Let the world label you, not you you.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2005
  19. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    Wanderer:
    I wasn't aware that believing in the existence of race means believing that it defines one.

    Was that supposed to be proper English or is there a new dialect called "moron"?
    Think the concept through. Actually study the biology involved and then maybe you'll know enough about the subject to express an articulate and meaningful statement.

    If you allow yourself, your thought patterns and whatnot, to be dominated by your sexual needs, you are a weakling.

    No, I'm saying that one should not allow another to define you.
    "Interdependence and independence and dependence of consciousness"
    "You cheat, you amble and you lisp, you nickname God's creatures and make wantons of your ignorence"

    You have a dull mind and need control and order. Otherwise you would have to deal with the unexpected -- which could be hostile, and you being dull might fail in confronting it.

    So you take pre-made categories, women are this and men are that, and you throw this here and that there.
    You call this thinking.

    cole grey:
    A lot of it he did not - could not have - experienced. Do you think he lived among overmen?
    I'm saying that his existence was not a romanticised lonely hell. It's irrelevent anyway.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2005
  20. WANDERER Banned Banned

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    704
    Xev
    It is one of the things that define man, along with many others.

    If not, then what does define a human being?

    Can someone redefine himself?
    Yes.

    I have no time for “proper English”
    Moron will have to do.

    I’ll take your advice under consideration.

    Duuuuh….Wasn’t that my point?

    I’m the “sexually frustrated” one, remember.

    Einstein’s theory of relativity could be a result of him being temporally frustrated.
    Nietzsche was socially frustrated and culturally and sexually.
    Kant was frustrated by the thing-in-itself.
    Feminists are frustrated because they can’t get any man to bang them or lesbians that want out.

    Whether you like it or not, nature defines you and the universe you are a part of defines you.
    Have you risen above these concepts?

    But by controlling it I am confronting it, stupid.

    Hmmmmmm

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    Let’s see.
    That would make all of science a construct of a mind that fears the unpredictable.
    Sounds about right.

    So, when you say ‘thinking’ or ‘dull’ or ‘categories’, are you not using “pre-made” constructs?

    Is not man the ordering and categorizing beast?

    I know, let’s take your advice, discard all categories and become morons that cannot find patterns in nature and that remain, forever, victims to their own stupidity.
    That’s good advice.
    But at least we can consider ourselves brave.

    Isn’t ‘brave’ a category? Isn’t ‘I’?

    Please allow me the privilege of being a conscious living being, even if this consciousness is a product of fear and weakness.
    You can be a brave warrior, who’s always surprised by reality and finds honour in being a blind, stupid animal.

    If you don’t like what consciousness has uncovered about your nature, that’s your problem.
    Deal with it.
    Closing the lights in the bathroom so that you don’t see your wrinkles, won’t make time stop.
    Sorry.
     
  21. water the sea Registered Senior Member

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    6,442
    Good question -- What defines a human being? It came up in another discussion I had, and it turns out the problem is of a more general methodological nature.

    Trying to define ourselves analytically, with categories, we always come up with insufficient answers. First of all, it is not clear which categories are prevalent or deciding, and then it is even less clear how to define the individual categories.
    It is the classical trap of analyticity.


    I think there is another trap in the concept of "define" -- how much does "define" actually mean 'control (and it is a control that renders one helpless)'?


    Actually, I think this "discarding of categories" is the deliberate step away from analyticity into holism.
    Thinking in prototypes instead of categories.

    The only problem with holism is though that one can't say much -- so a holist easily comes across as stupid.

    (A prototype is understood holistically, it is flexible and adjustable; this is most likely how concepts are organized in our mind. We have a prototype of a bird, and this prototype allows us to recognize a sparrow, a penguin and an ostrich to be all of the kind "bird".
    Categories are defined analytically, the group of defining characteristics is set and unchangeable. Precisely speaking in terms of analytical categories, the thing in your owen that once was a chicken now isn't a "bird" anymore.)




    P.S.

    Feminism is an ideology that tries to make women to be like men. This is why feminist women are so utterly not feminine.
     
  22. WANDERER Banned Banned

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    water
    The sum of his past.

    History held together by Will.
     
  23. water the sea Registered Senior Member

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    But this is dreadful! A dead abstraction, saying also that one can only become what one is/was, and change is impossible.
     

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