Masculinity and Madness

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by WANDERER, Dec 31, 2004.

  1. WANDERER Banned Banned

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    Hey…who told you my nickname?

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  3. water the sea Registered Senior Member

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    Why is this, this thread, happening?
     
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  5. Fenris Wolf Banned Banned

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    No, they were indeed meant to defame. Nothing personal, though.

    So go ahead and ask.

    You lose.

    Nobodody here means enough to me to get me that pissed, wanderer.

    You consider youself to be an observer, but you're not terribly good at it are you?

    And there is the proof.

    Wrong again.

    Actually, it was an instant meal out of the packet. And dessert isn't on the menu, unless someone else brings some for you.

    Your standard offering. You'll still tell yourself you're the reason I'm here after I'm gone.

    They need a clean. I'll put them back on again later. I'm not wearting anything right now.
    I've looked around, seen what everyone else is wearing. Loud, flashy clothes, bright and open. Or so they tell themselves. But when we get right down to it, my "shadows" have been far more honest than the clothing of those who consider themselves to be open and direct.

    It wasn't an insinuation. Perhaps you do see yourself, but you are incapable, at least here, of being anything else.
    As far as total anihilation goes, That was not my intention. You'll achieve that yourself, eventually.

    I thought I'd made it fairly clear that my own part in this "display" was contemptible as well. Apparently not.

    The first part is the difference between you and I.

    What you said earlier applies to me as well. I really don't give a fuck about you. Your peace accord is wasted : I won't be here long.

    Now, now, we mustn’t discourage the young and impressionable.
    He will learn or he will not.

    When has that ever stopped you?

    Ask lou. You two can meet in a playground or something.

    Oh. That one. No, I didn't know.

    Funny that... now you're beginning to sound like someone else. Or perhaps you're speaking from personal experience. Perhaps you're assuming I feel as you do. Xev and I stopped talking long ago, Wanderer. Don't fret.
    But you still couldn't ask directly, could you?
     
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  7. Fenris Wolf Banned Banned

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    567
    Xev:
    You missed the point. I know the myth.
    The question was metaphorical. Who is the Fenris Wolf to me? Who is Tyr to me (ie, who/what enslaved me, and what was my price)? What do I see as my chains? What do I think might break them?

    Water:
    Because. You. All. Want. It. To.

    *edit.
    It's disappointing, really. Those who pride themselves in being direct are either here, still posting the same old things and playing games, or they've disappeared entirely. Smoke and noise.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2005
  8. mercurio 9th dan seppuku sensei Registered Senior Member

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    325
    Hell is empty and all the devils are here.

    W.S.
     
  9. Fenris Wolf Banned Banned

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    567
    See Water? I told you they were watching.
     
  10. cole grey Hi Valued Senior Member

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    1,999
    Why do I have the feeling I am watching an ugly old woman breastfeed her wailing brat?

    I'll explain.

    There is a history here, or intimacy, I am not a part of.
    It is not the sensible beauty and “all-rightness”, one might feel upon seeing a woman of mothering age in the same process, although there is some sense I get of having a view into the inner workings of life.
    The discussion is not as titillating as stumbling onto two people having sex might be, there seems to be less heart in it than an act of passion would have. Although I admit I could be missing quite a bit, I feel that the general tone has become morose since the first fun and lively round ended.

    There is a question on masculinity and madness it brings up.

    Consider wanderer’s statement –
    This could very easily have been made by a man or woman, there seems to be nothing distinguishing about it.

    However, the general tone of the men’s posts over the last many has an element of seriousness and “darkness” that the women’s posts do not. The women get angry, or become aloof, or just laugh, and the men seem to be dragging us into a place of inner conflict. It reminds me of the story of african tribes going out to “war” on each other, and when the first person is killed they see the seriousness of it all and say, “that’s enough”, and go home to their wives and kids. They have a different perspective on who the true enemy is, and it isn’t their neighbors. I don’t know if the anecdote is even true to african tribal wars, but the metaphor still seems to apply. I just think I missed the “kill”. It seems to have happened here on sciforums a while back, or maybe there was more than one “kill”. Either way, there seems to be some inner conflict that is more visible to, or is more experienced by, the male.
    Women seem to be less prone to this one certain type of madness. I have seen this in watching, and experiencing, people in “real life”, as well.

    ***It is not a generalisation that applies to all women and men, obviously, but is there a trend?***



    Possible reasons -
    1) escape – Are women just more comfortable with reality? Why? Women just seem to me to be more accepting of life as it is.
    2) pressure – I was talking with a female friend of mine asking her if she felt any need to do something “great” with her life. She responded that all of her female friends seem to be able to be satisfied with just having a nice life. Their goals relate less to accomplishing some particular end, consisting more of creating an environment. She also said that her male friends were consistently occupied by their thoughts of particular accomplishments.
    Maybe women have been, historically, more able to remain comfortable with lack of completion. And sexually?
    3) show weakness – Men, being widely recognized as the stronger sex, actually need an outlet for expressing the weakness any sane human would feel, at least once in a while. This sense of weakness occurs when presented with the facts of existence. One must realize the control they have over their environment, although large, is far from complete. Men let out cries, or shouts, of desperation over this “hopeless” state, much more often than women, don’t they?

    These are some possibilities from impressions I have gathered. I am interested in seeing what people think about whether there is actually some truth in the thread title. I.e., "Hell is empty, and all the devils are here", in my head.

    P.S. Fenris – I hear the “voice” of my words as completely flat and disaffected, empty of all the inflection and music that makes speaking with people such a pleasure. The friendly neighborhood autistic, or schizo. Even if I am writing something that should be excited, angry, or emotional, it sounds flat to me.
    It is funny though, when I read another person’s words, they come in my voice, the one I “talk” with when I am working out something verbally in my head. It makes it harder to keep in mind who is saying what, especially because my views of the characters keep changing as they are revealed under the different lights of various conversations.
     
  11. mercurio 9th dan seppuku sensei Registered Senior Member

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    325
    Well, I DID want to check the button UNREAD THREAD, but couldn't find it.

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  12. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    " Either way, there seems to be some inner conflict that is more visible to, or is more experienced by, the male."

    No, males are just more inclined to bore us with the details of their stupid "downward spirals"
    Women have the sense - on average - to realize that it doesn't really matter. Yet males are generally raised to think that others will react to their stupid emotive bullshit.

    Like Goths. Spend any time around Goths?
     
  13. cole grey Hi Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,999
    Exactly.
    But does it really, not matter? Or is it the basic problem of human history?
    Something in the middle I think.
     
  14. cole grey Hi Valued Senior Member

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    1,999
    Is this the masculine madness?
     
  15. Fenris Wolf Banned Banned

    Messages:
    567
    Finally. Meat.
    You've either been here longer than I thought, Cole, or you're rather perceptive. Your first paragraph was rather accurate.

    I said to Water in answer to her question as to this threads existance - "Because we want it to".

    The women would like to maintain the illusion that they are indeed aloof, or observing detachedly to one degree or another. I can assure you, though, that they are not. Men are simply more accustomed to conflict, and dealing with it. In general, they are more open by nature. Women get angry, or laugh, or turn to one another and sigh "men" with a roll of the eyes. They betray themselves, though. A scarf thrown to that one, a kiss blown there. Sometimes the intent is encouragement, sometimes it is to hurt the one they are interested in. But they are there, nonetheless. Watching. Letting their presence be felt - in one way or another.
    This thread and others like it are indeed an outlet, but ultimately, it seems, an unsatisfying one.

    The madness is universal.

    A question for you, Cole. If the women were not here, would this thread exist at all?


    I'm quite the opposite. When I write, the words come alive in my mind with all the tone and emphasis I would place on them were they to be spoken. Thus I use italics, pauses... I write as I would speak when animated. Out there, though, I've been described as being very "dry". Unexcitable. Depending on the company.
    When I read another... No, I tend to read tone and inflection only when I know that person to some extent. Thinking further... what I actually do is assign a tone dependant on my view of that person. If I think that person a fool, he sounds like a fool. If I think this one a bubblehead, she sounds like a bubblehead... and I even can hear the little "ya knows?" and self deprecating giggles.
     
  16. Fenris Wolf Banned Banned

    Messages:
    567
    By the way....

    Please allow me to introduce myself
    I’m a man of wealth and taste
    I’ve been around for a long, long year
    Stole many a man’s soul and faith


    No. No devil here.
     
  17. Xev Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,943
    Not really.
    I feel just as intense and liminal, but I won't - I won't waste my life in impotent expenditures of my wrath.

    Yes, it's partly a problem of our history. Little outlet for creative, dominent urges.
    Unless you want to be a lawyer or a CEO or some other faggot.
    But that's repetition.
     
  18. Fenris Wolf Banned Banned

    Messages:
    567
    Hah! How amusing.
    Men and women both are prone to this, and both disparage it.
     
  19. WANDERER Banned Banned

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    704
    Wolfy
    As if....
    Nothing personal taken.

    Dude, when you imitate it’s good to hide it by putting it in your own words.
    You are doing it verbatim here.

    I did ask.
    Did you answer?

    Congratulations, you win!

    Damn! I always lose.

    I can tell.
    An icicle of indifference you are or is that an indirect message meant for other eyes?

    For me this place means the world.
    My entire life and self-esteem is tied up in it.

    For instance your departure will keep me awake for at least a week.
    But I’ll go on….and on…

    I try.
    You’ve been my inspiration.

    I bet some of them were word for word.
    Made you skip a beat before you swallowed hard and posted your act

    Why am I not surprised?
    You know you were saying the same thing, way back when.
    Now it turns out I was closer to the truth than you wanted to admit at them time.

    You’re the chef man.
    But prepackaged meals are what you specialize in.

    I never said that but you repeating it over and over again makes me wonder.
    I couldn’t care less why you come, just as long as you come so I can study you and have some fun.

    But we both know you’ll disappear but you won’t leave.
    You’ve invested too much time here.

    Stop it!
    You’ll get all the women wet.

    You’re alright dude.
    You just made the error of confronting the wrong person once, is all.

    We could have been friends if your penis didn’t persuade you to attack me, as a show of your worth.
    You felt threatened, I understand.
    You forgot a basic rule of strategy:
    Before attacking, reconnoitre.

    Then you played the innocent victim so perfectly. A method change.
    Unfortunately some women disrespect this strategy.
    Water would have been more susceptible to this method, but gendanken or Xev?
    Come on man. You fucked up.
    You played the wrong hand towards the wrong person.

    Now you are all hurt and shit, telling us how you don’t care when your every paragraph aches.

    I did begin by posting serious subject matter and speaking from my heart.
    I still do.

    But I quickly discovered that this place was more a playroom than a debate room.
    So I adjusted.
    You can’t talk morality in a room full of prostitute’s, dude.
    You either leave or you wear a pimp hat and participate.
    Maybe , once in a while, you can slip in an honest remark or a friendly helping, compassionate hand to the ones that give a sign of interest in it.

    You tried though, didn’t you?
    Or have you reinterpreted the past and reinvented it to suit your opinions of yourself.
    It’s still there.
    You can go back and check who said what to whom first.

    But you’ve been waiting for me to shoot myself in the foot for a year now, haven’t you?

    Who knows, I might, accidentally one day or I might do it intentionally.
    Chances are I won’t.

    I don’t come here nearly as much as I once did.
    This is an exception. I’m feeling a little low these past few weeks.
    It’s the winter blues.

    Don’t hate yourself for being human.
    Hate yourself for wanting to remain so.

    You’ve allowed the words of your mentor and your own ego determine your perceptions of me.
    I don’t mind but you exaggerate them into a caricature.

    My need for this place is momentary and in passing.
    It helps me vent.

    You just raised your hand and volunteered to be my target.

    Say it ain’t so…Joe?
    You just don’t know when to quit.
    I offer my hand and you slap it away.
    Now, if I use this same hand to pound you, you’ll accuse me of aggression.

    Maybe you should go to Cambodia.

    From what?

    BRAVOOOO!!! Bravo!!
    Your best performance yet.
    I love the casual tone, the feigned memory loss, the callous indifference.

    Allow me to dissect this performance.

    Oh’ – A manufactured performance imitating the reemergence of a memory that was discarded and left behind; a memory towards which so much indifference is displayed as to confuse the mind when the first allusion is made.
    Then, the exaggerated overacting is made apparent and so the act is covered up by the sudden return of memory.

    ‘That one’ – A subtle insult with a hint of indifferent recognition that she is but one of many. The insinuation that she has been far from conscious thought for so long, that it requires a special effort to distinguish who was meant by ‘her’ or ‘she’.

    ‘I didn’t know’ – A hint of sadness exemplified by the terseness coupled by a smidgen of bitterness. What could have been, what should have been.

    The mind grasps at itself.
    She’ll regret it one day.
    She’ll think about what she missed out on.
    The mind finds stability and hope. Vengeance through indifference and the tides of time.

    I’m only guessing.

    He secretly admires the method so he attempts to utilize it himself.

    He does not answer.

    That bit was known to me since last year.
    Tell me something new.

    A hint of satisfaction at the thought of causing me some anxiety.

    I didn’t have to.

    But why are you now using my words against me?

    You and I know there are things that burn your curiosity, but that can also cause you distress.

    You want to ask but the gesture would be humbling and the information would be more hurtful than pleasurable.
     
  20. Xev Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,943
    Not 'xactly, Fenris-San. You liked this:

    It's a "simulacra"

    It's not the conflict he was asking about, it's the "darkness"
    You know I was there once.
    Sorta.
    But a lot of the men I know take pride in it.
    It's some reassurence of their significance. "I am dark, I can be dangerous, look at me look at me look at me"

    And the women think, in their stupid fantasies, that they can be the angel attacked by a vampire, the saviour. Look at how Water follows Wanderer around when he pulls his stupid depressive shit.

    Yah. Pahfuckingthetic.
     
  21. Fenris Wolf Banned Banned

    Messages:
    567
    I have to go to work soon, but let's see what I can fit in in ten minutes.

    Your problem, wanderer, is that you simply don't believe it when someone tells you they don't give a damn about you. You've had this conversation before, but nothing seems to... penetrate. The only explanation for people replying to you that you'll allow yourself is that they're doing so out of interest in you, rather than swatting at a fly.

    But here you are :

    You're not asking. You're giving your interpretation of events and then sitting back waiting for an answer as though anything a person tells you makes a difference to your predefined notions.

    I'd only win if you placed the bet with me.

    Some of both. And the two put together do not comprise the whole story.

    How many times are you going to say the same thing without ever allowing for the possibility that you may be wrong?

    Closer, but nowhere near as close as you think. And the parts that hurt most were the ones given to you.

    Really. Don't hold your breath hoping.

    Only reconnoitre when the enemy actually is one. There are no stakes here. Nothing to be lost or gained. Why play seriously?
    This is little different from the computer games, really. You can either play, or you can play hard.
    And no, we couldn't have been friends. Not here, anyway. I don't like your persona.

    I'm not playing a hand. My contempt is real.

    Times up. Be back tonight.
     
  22. WANDERER Banned Banned

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    704
    Xev
    And you like ‘Death-Metal’ why?
    Because it’s happy and bubbly?

    Everyone can be dangerous and safe given opportunity and motive.

    Have you found a way out of the simulation except for suicide?

    She does?

    Thanks you.
    I’ll be handing out autographs after the show.

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  23. WANDERER Banned Banned

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    Fenris Wolf
    And what you fail to understand is that I don’t care if you don’t care.

    Is that the only weapon left to you?
    It’s obvious that you are convinced about my intentions.
    You cast stones that never touch me.
    Please continue, it’s hilarious.

    Why would you be honest or what makes you think you actually know what you are doing and why?
    Your interpretation of your actions and motives are just as subjective as mine are of them.

    I don’t doubt that you believe what you believe, but does it correspond to your behaviour?

    I made no such reference.

    The possibility is always there.
    I allow for it.
    You saying so will not be the convincing factor.

    Oh, I was generally accurate, as to be expected from this distance and using this medium.
    But the things that were given only filled in the details and showed how close I had come.

    Mephura was a sweetheart, wasn’t he/she/it?
    Such nobility.

    So why do you assume I do?

    It wasn’t intended to be liked it was intended to invite challenge so as to exercise the mind behind it.

    Should I be hurt?
     

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