Martin Luther...The Rebel

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Bowser, Jan 8, 2005.

  1. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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  3. Leo Volont Registered Senior Member

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    He also had ambition, and saw that he had no future in the Institutionalized Catholic Church. He knew this because the Church was something of a Meritocracy, and he had simply not shown much intelligence or skill. He did not have what it would take to rise within the Church.

    He saw his opportunity in destroying the church. The German Barons saw Luther as an opportunistic focus of what they thought of in terms of a Tax Revolt. Luther would have been nothing in himself, and actually turned out to be effectively not much more than nothing. What the Catholic Church lost did not go to Luther. The properties were confiscated and split up among the German Barons. Church Properties and Church Schools were not set up as Lutheran Institutions, but were shut down, sold and converted to secular and selfish uses.

    The eventual rise of Protestant Sects would only come centuries later, and simply because Catholic Church's and personel were forbidden to enter these Protestant Territories. So private individuals decided to get into the Religious Market. It has distorted the way Protestant Cultures have come to view Religion. They see Religion as a minor auxilary element in life, because their churches are typically small and very de-emphasized background elements of what is primarily a Secular Culture. Protestants have lost the view of Religion as the Primary Social Monolith -- the Catholic Church as not only Religion but Department of Education, Department of Defence, and Overseer of Government. Luther destroyed all that, or rather his Patron Barons destroyed all that.

    As Luther got old he was known to endlessly complain about how bad things became. To him the days of Catholic Dominance were clearly 'the Good ol Days'. His guests were often amazed that he never seemed to acknowledge any personal responsibilty for any of the catastrophic change that they perceived had all sourced directly from himself.
     
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  5. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    Luther questioned the authority of the church. He threatened that authority by making the bible available to the common folk. By offering the bible to the surfs, he removed the monopoly which the roman church had used for exploitation and profiteering.

    He showed that God doesn't charge gold or silver for salvation. He enlightened the peasants; and when they saw the truth, they were pissed.
     
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  7. Leo Volont Registered Senior Member

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    Luther did not make the Bible available to common folk... the Printing Press had already did that. What you are referring to is Luther stirring up Paulist Doctrines that the Church had wisely dissassociated itself from in the last fifteenhundred years. So whenevery Luther, or an Protestant, says "Bible" we should think of only "Paul". Indeed, Luther's complaint was not that he did not know plenty about Christ or that the Church did not teach sufficiently of Christ, no, Luther's big problem was that he complained that he had gotten so far through University without ever having been compelled to study the Epistles of Paul. Luther frankly accused the Church of hiding the doctrines of Paul. And, do you know what...? He was right!

    But the Church had good reason. Somebody somewhere had discerned that Paul was the False Apostle, the Wide Way of Destruction, the Tares in the Wheat. Not much Bible Scholarship is required to see Paul being denounced by John in Rev 2:22 as the False Apostle who was tossed out of Ephesus. Paul himself in one of the Timothies admitts he was forced out of Asia by the Real Apostles. So, although Paul had given some impetus to the fledgling gentile church, upon review it was thought that his doctrines were much too creatively man-made. Look at them! There is a frank rejection of Law, a glorification of carnality with the argument that men are not whole individuals unless they are sexually active, there is the argument that the Secular Authorities have every right to dictate to Religious Authorities, and, most appallingly, the doctrine that Man is inherently sinful and that Good Works are to be pointedly avoided in order to emphasize Salvation by pure unaccompanied Faith. From that we have all of Protestantism's refusals to conduct themselves morally and in regards to charitable social living. Following the dictates of Paul, the Protestant Church's have set themselves distinctively apart from the Catholic by becoming Predatory and Amoral Cultures. Yes, the Catholic Church had buried Paul for a reason... the Printing Press dug him up, and Luther waved the bones around, thus ressurrecting the man who had been the Antichrist. Paul.
     
  8. Leo Volont Registered Senior Member

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    The Church was then occupying the seat of Government. The Sale of Indulgences was a tax... and it was mostly applied as a luxury tax on the most wealthy, which is why Luther's primary allies were among the Rich Aristocracy.. NOT the Peasants as you say.

    Look at History. The Barons confiscated all of Church Property and closed the schools. It was then that the Peasants rose up and rebelled, demanding to know what had happened to Religion and their Churches and Schools which they had seen were shut down or sold off, but, anyway, they no longer had the social benefit of any of these Institutions which had once been Universal. What followed was the Slaughter of the Peasants. Luther was asked to make a ruling and he did, issuing an Order to the Barons to keep order even at the price of bloodshed. Central Europe was practically depopulated.

    So, at the time when they were killed for protesting the closings of the Churchs, were they 'Protestant' Peasants, or would you say they were Catholic Peasants. The only Protestants in Germany were the Barons who benefited by escaping taxation and then by stealing up all of the Church's properties and rents.

    You know, it wouldn't hurt to read a book. Traditional Anti-Catholic Propaganda just isn't teaching you enough.
     
  9. The Devil Inside Banned Banned

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    martin luther.......
    hm.......
    well, i put him in the SAME boat as catholics, theologically speaking. he was someone who used the doctrine of jesus christ as a tool for self advancement. but, i dont particularly care what he did. since i didnt know the man personally, i cant say what his motivations truly were. (dont let that stop any of you, though)

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  10. Raithere plagued by infinities Valued Senior Member

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    Indeed... they're defining attributes for a fanatic.

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    "God does not work salvation for fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin vigorously.... Do not for a moment imagine that this life is the abiding place of justice; sin must be committed." - Martin Luther

    "Sin cannot tear you away from him [Christ], even though you commit adultery a hundred times a day and commit as many murders." - Martin Luther

    "A large number of deaf, crippled and blind people are afflicted solely through the malice of the demon. And one must in no wise doubt that plagues, fevers and every sort of evil come from him." - Martin Luther

    "As to the common people, ... one has to be hard with them and see that they do their work and that under the threat of the sword and the law they comply with the observance of piety, just as you chain up wild beasts." - Martin Luther

    "I myself saw and touched at Dessay, a child of this sort, which had no human parents, but had proceeded from the Devil. He was twelve years old, and, in outward form, exactly resembled ordinary children." - Martin Luther

    "I should have no compassion on these witches; I should burn them all." - Martin Luther

    "Idiots, the lame, the blind, the dumb, are men in whom the devils have established themselves: and all the physicians who heal these infirmities, as though they proceeded from natural causes, are ignorant blockheads...." - Martin Luther

    "Many demons are in woods, in waters, in wildernesses, and in dark poolly places ready to hurt...people." - Martin Luther

    "What shall we do with...the Jews? I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach on pain of loss of life and limb." - Martin Luther

    "What shall we do with...the Jews?...set fire to their synagogues or schools and bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them." - Martin Luther

    "Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has: it never comes to the aid of spritual things, but--more frequently than not --struggles against the Divine Word...." - Martin Luther

    "Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God." - Martin Luther


    Freaking nutcase.

    At least he was right on one point:

    "To be a Christian, you must pluck out the eye of reason." - Martin Luther

    ~Raithere
     
  11. The Devil Inside Banned Banned

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    haha.
    he was only a couple hundred years early for the jew burnings.
     
  12. Leo Volont Registered Senior Member

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    Luther was advancing Paulist Doctrines. His entire Rebellion was based on the accusation that the Catholic Church had been keeping the Books of Paul something of a secret. The Letters of the Real Apostles, which echoed the Teachings of Christ, Luther wanted to have purged from his new Bible. If the only books left in the Bible had been the letters of Paul it would have suited Luther just fine. Even today when you find Protestants talking about the Word of God, you will find that they are primarily quoting Paul... never Christ.
     
  13. Leo Volont Registered Senior Member

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    Actually, that was Roosevelt and Churchill. Few people realize that there are still Classified Documents being held back from World War II. They are in reference to the Continental Embargo. America never even pretended to be neutral. England announced that Europe was to be cut off, and America agreed... and then insisted that trade be continued with Great Britain.

    Well, Europe had not fed itself in over a hundred years. Without food imports it was clear that there would be widescale starvation. Many European Statesmen pleaded with Churchill and Roosevelt to allow for Humanitarian Assistance programs, but the two Drunks insisted that Peace would come more quickly if the threat of Starvation loomed over the Continent.

    so the food finally ran out and there was wide scale starvation, especially in the camps where the Germans sent people to maintain order... food riots in the cities would have done little good.

    Of course it was Churchill and Roosevelt's fault, and the sealed Confidential Documents would show that. The Nurenburg Trials were simply a put up sham to demonstrate that the millions of deaths were not the result of a starvation imposed upon the entire Continent by the Allied Powers, but had been a devise of Adolf Hitler -- to kill the only laborers he had in the midst of War Time. Yeah, sure.

    The first rule of being a good historian is not to believe wartime propaganda. As far as WWII goes, all we still have available is War Time Propaganda. But the Truth is easy enough to discern: what do you think would happen if all of Continental Europe were deprived of food?
     
  14. The Devil Inside Banned Banned

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    its a sad state of affairs, im afraid. but.....well.....it happened, and now we all have to live with it.
     
  15. Leo Volont Registered Senior Member

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    Why the fatalism?

    All it would take is one great big ad campaign around the globe discrediting Paul, and his career would finally be over. Of course, that won't happen ... such advertising revenues are saved for important issues like Beer and Cola, but still... it would not take much talk before the tacit assumption that Christ and Paul are one and the same could be broken. Protestants unreflectively speak of Paul as The Word of God, and they do that without thinking about it. If once made to think about it, they would realize that Paul had and demonstrated about as much Authority as the farting Altar Boy. Paul has not prophecies attributed to him and no miracles. In today's Catholic Church he would not qualify for even the most basic Sainthood. And nothing he taught conforms to what Christ had taught.

    Also, many of the World's more Liberal Theologians are pushing for a New Universal Ecumenicalism. The only thing holding Christianity back, is NOT the Teachings of Jesus, which are widely admired throughout the Religious World, but the Doctrines of Paul which are not so much Religious as that they offer an Excuse NOT TO BE Religious. Teaching Forgiveness of Sins is just so much an excuse to sin, is it not!? So the wisest and the best of Christian Theologians know that it is only a matter of time before Paul gets tossed out with the trash.

    so why would you simply surrender to that unnecessary Pauline influence?
     
  16. The Devil Inside Banned Banned

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    lol. i am jewish.
    i do not care if people follow jesus, or paul, or a walking banana.....for all i care, they are learning about themselves, hopefully.
    the purpose of spirituality is to bring yourself closer to spiritual truths.

    if reading a tabloid can honestly bring someone closer to god, then who am i to question that?

    its not submitting to fatalism.

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    it is recognizing the way things have been for almost 2000 years, and knowing that people dont like to find out they are wrong.
     
  17. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

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    An ANTI-SEMITE he was, but the man had much to say that was very good. I suppose that he was imperfect and knew that to be so

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    Your sin cannot cast you into hell

    No sin can harm me

    A good preacher should have these qualities and virtues: first, to teach systematically; second, he should have a ready wit; third, he should be eloquent; fourth, he should have a good voice; fifth, a good memory; sixth, he should know when to make an end; seventh, he should be sure of his doctrine; eighth, he should venture and engage body and blood, wealth and honor, in the world; ninth, he should suffer himself to be mocked and jeered of everyone.

    Our Lord commonly giveth Riches to such gross asses, to whom he affordeth nothing else that is good.

    The human heart is like a ship on a stormy sea driven about by winds blowing from all four corners of heaven. -Martin Luther.

    Peace is more important than all justice; and was not made for the sake of justice, but justice for the sake of peace

    Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here in this world we have to sin. This life is not a dwelling place of righteousness

    In Romans 7, St. Paul says, "The law is spiritual." What does that mean? If the law were physical, then it could be satisfied by works, but since it is spiritual, no one can satisfy it unless everything he does springs from the depths of the heart. But no one can give such a heart except the Spirit of God, who makes the person be like the law, so that he actually conceives a heartfelt longing for the law and henceforward does everything, <b>not through fear or coercion, but from a free heart.</b>

    Feast of the Holy Innocents The whole being of any Christian is Faith and Love... Faith brings the man to God, love brings him to men.

    I really like this next one...
    <b>What is it to serve God and to do His will? Nothing else than to show mercy to our neighbor. For it is our neighbor who needs our service; God in heaven needs it not.</b>

    Christ says that not alone in the Church is there forgiveness of sins, but that where two or three are gathered together in His name they shall have the right to promise to each other comfort and the forgiveness of sins.

    Commemoration of Martin Luther, Teacher, Reformer, 1546 Let every man recognize what he is, and be certain that we are all equally priests, that is, we have the same power in the word and in any sacrament whatever.

    If you picture the Bible to be a mighty tree and every word a little branch, I have shaken every one of these branches because I wanted to know what it was and what it meant.

    The imputation of righteousness we need very much, because we are far from perfect. As long as we have this body, sin will dwell in our flesh. Then, too, we sometimes drive away the holy spirit; we fall into sin, like Peter, David, and other holy men. Nevertheless we may always take recourse to this fact, that our sins are covered, and that God will not lay them to our charge. Sin is not held against us for Christ's sake.
     
  18. Leo Volont Registered Senior Member

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    Ideas do evolve.

    Indeed, nobody wishes to admit they are wrong. But this is not to say that people do not change their minds... only most the time it happens so slowly it almost seems imperceptable.

    People are emotionally invested in their Religious Ideas. Much of their social supports come from those with whom it is necessary to share Religious Opinions. But, as time moves along, a person with a changing mind can make new friends and set up social supports outside of his old networks.

    One Hindu Saint had said that Man changes not like a Butterfly but like a Caterpillar -- he does not fly off of one leaf and alight upon another as the Butterfly. Like the caterpillar he walks from one leaf to the other, first with only a few legs on the new leaf, and many on the old, but slowly the weight shifts and the caterpillar is completely on the New Leaf.

    Besides, nobody in your family is in advertising? Public Relations? Politics? No lawyers who are quite cynical enough about how easy it is to manipulate the Jury System. For the most part People think what they are supposed to think. Approved Brave New World Thinking. It is all quite amorphous. Look at Europe. A few Generations ago they were all Fascist Nazis. Then they were Socialists. Now they are conservatives. They think what they think they are supposed to think.

    For those who think for themselves, they only have to speak their mind and hope that it has some resonance. All it would take is some flegling punk in a rock band to take off with it and be a Super Star, and the Cultural Pendulum could change direction overnight.

    Anyway, keep your fatalism as a good cynical fall back position, but keep trying. You don't need to resort to Plan B until Plan A has absolutely gotten its butt kicked. And where there's Life, theres Hope.
     
  19. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    Untrue. Martin Luther's forgetting the unforgivable sin. Moreover, the sins that we do, by their nature, harm us.

    Wbat you've said above seems to be a loose interpretation of the verse that says where two or three gather in Christ name, Christ is present. While I don't think it says what you've said above, I don't discount the possibility of Christ forgiving someone, especially if for what they ask, they mean.
     
  20. Leo Volont Registered Senior Member

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    do you think that paul cared much about the Unforgivable Sin?

    Besides, the Unforgivable Sin is the insult against the Holy Spirit, which neither paul nor luther considered themselves to be violators of, which isn't to say that they weren't. When Paul spoke against Angels of Light being in actuality demons, he was committing almost word for word the same Insult that Christ accused the Pharisees of, which brought on Christ's Curse of the Unforgiveable Sin (to say that a Miracle of the Holy Spirit is an Act of the Devil). Likewise, when Luther attacked the Saints of the Catholic Church he was in clear violation of the rule forbidding the Insult of the Holy Spirit, for how can you renounce the Saints without renouncing the Spirit within them.
     
  21. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    Well, because Paul makes the distinction between those who are resurrected in Christ and those who are eternally condemned, Paul must clearly believe in an unforgivable sin; otherwise, those condemned could eventually redeem themselves.

    By angel of light, Paul is referring to Genesis, where Satan came to Eve like an angel of light.

    Well, no. If you read the passage, what the Pharisees were doing was similar to the unforgivable sin but was not identical.

    I don't think Luther ever attacked the Catholic saints persay. He was known <a href = "http://orthodoxlutheran.fws1.com/bvm/rosary.html">to say</a> the Rosary, as some Lutherans still do today. Paul and Luther present two similar but radically different characters. Both suffered from past sins. But whereas Paul only shows his suffering as a means of revealing truth, Luther, driven by a need to defend himself, has allowed his theology to change, I think.
     
  22. Leo Volont Registered Senior Member

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    No. Paul was not telling children's stories. paul was stemming a mutiny. What was happening was that the Real Apostles and their Disciples were coming into his Territory to correct the doctrinal errors he was spreading. They were asking the congregations to reject Paul. They did reject paul in Ephesus. the threat to paul was real.

    Paul, in his desparation, told his congregations to believe no Righteous Man, and to reject any Gospel not explicitly from his own mouth, and even if an Angel of Light were to appear before them, who would disagree with what Paul had been teaching, to consider it a manifestation of the devil.

    This is not talking about some angel from genesis. This is Paul fighting everything that is Holy in order to save his own self-interests.
     
  23. Leo Volont Registered Senior Member

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    Luther did have very little control on the development of Protestant Doctrine, for instance, the hatred of Mary which became almost the Touchstone of Protestantism was not really concertedly advanced by anybody in particular, but sort of grew out of the general Iconoclasmic destructive fervor of the protestant mobs. Likewise the hatred for the Saints. When you are destroying images of Mary and images of the Saints, it is difficult to separate the distinction after awhile, and the hatred for the Images turns into a hatred for the Very Beings they represent.

    It did play into the Prophecy of Simeon, who said that those of Evil Heart would be known by their hatred of Mary. It is still true to this day, that Protestants, who claim to worship Jesus, have an abiding hatred for Mary and none of them can resist insulting Her at any and every opportunity. It is as though they couldn't possibly believe in Heaven, or they would realize that they would eventually have to meet this Person whom they never tired of abusing with insult and inuendo -- their 'Lord's' own Mother. It indicates almost a Magical Curse on Protestants that they automatically identify themselves by such an irrational and uncontrollable hatred... but it does fulfill the Prophecy of Simeon.
     

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