Marines refuse to leave Berkeley despute Council resolution

Discussion in 'Politics' started by S.A.M., Feb 3, 2008.

  1. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Please feel free to delete anything that does not agree with your POV.

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    harms way != illegal occupation

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  3. superstring01 Moderator

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    Perhaps, but that's not the debate-- soldiers sign away their right to refuse assignment. That's why it's called enlistment and not employment.

    ~String
     
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  5. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    And according to Asguard (and others I have heard) are quite predatory in their puruit of cannon fodder. So its understandable that people would want to keep them away from their children. Especially when its sending them off to occupy a country in a war based on lies.
     
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  7. superstring01 Moderator

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    Well, in the USA (and you probably don't know this) the Federal Government trumps local rules. They can bitch and whine all they want, but national defense is a national issue and isn't altered, edited, and restricted by local municipalities hell-bent determining national policy from their front porches. It doesn't work like that. The Federal Government should cut off every cent of money it provides to every school and institution in that city. Moreover, the city itself should be cut off from receiving any government funding for any issue outside of local emergencies.

    ~String
     
  8. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    which one of Mores video's shows the recruiters out on the hunt?

    I cant rember but i felt SICK when the guy said "no way will i join" and they said "ok just sign this to say that and we will leave you alone"
    He does so and as the two marines are walking away you hear them say "got another one"

    String would you accept those sort of actions from a company let alone the millatry?

    Edit to add, strange i thought you had de-centralised power. here the local councils decide on specific and zoning for area's. They also control things like brothals and they are no where NEAR as bad as those sort of preditory practices
     
  9. superstring01 Moderator

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    Amazingly the people who claim to be the scholarly group (liberals) always fail to look at the fact that Moore edited out mountains of footage from soldiers, people and politicians who's actions and words were contrary to his claims. So he included ONE recruiter who said he wouldn't join. What about the rest of them? It's like we've determined that all female teachers are bad because a few of them decide to have sex with their students.

    If that company was the sole protector of American independence (and, again, I'm not a supporter of the occupation of Iraq-- this is a different issue, much as SAM would like to claim otherwise), then I would attempt to alter it's behavior, but would not prohibit them from recruiting within city limits.

    In many ways, yes. But the city council's ruling is only done for show: It has no power over military operations or where they recruit. Courts have come down on the side of the military. As well they should.

    ~String
     
  10. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    firstly

    I have done ALOT of resurch on one of his other films (sicko) and found it to be very accurate so yes i do find it to be sensational but more factually accurate than the kind of sorces sandy provides. Apart from that if those two marines actions wernt santioned at least unoffically then there would have been a) a public outrage at there actions and b) they would have been displened

    Oh and that has nothing to do with the occupation only the preditory practices of the millatry, rember you cant just cansel the contracts that you sign with them.

    I have to dissagree with you on the second point. There are no recruiting stations in Australia and we get along without them and still manage to recruit WITHOUT these sort of claims. The CLOSEST thing we have here to that is state head quarters where you go AFTER you CHOSE to sign up to have the meds, physical, psyc and aptitude testing. Actually the first time you go there you get shown a recruitment video and get to ask questions about different area's of the ADF as well as chose what your interested in. Then by LAW you have to take the aplication home and decide what you want to do. You CANT be conscripted off the side of the road

    Third the councils here have no power over FEDERAL land your right (ie bases) BUT if they are renting an office block then they come under state and local control

    Also the ACCC wouldnt accept these sort of practices
     
  11. superstring01 Moderator

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    You do realize that he cannot call them documentaries in the USA, right? Because their slant is always political and entertainment. When the mission is predetermined in advance, how much objective information can you actually hope to get?

    Yes, that's the same in most countries. Do you know how HARD it is to enlist? Dude: I've joined before! I know. I served in the Navy for nine months (got kicked out for being gay). It's called enlistment for a reason, Asguard.

    Um... Asguard, the recruiting needs of the US military are exponentially larger than anything in Australia.

    Yes, but if there are federal laws that exist that prohibit municipalities from discriminating against the military in rental agreements then I'm afraid they are stuck.

    We're not Australians.

    ~String
     
  12. Bells Staff Member

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    If they are doing something illegal on the premises, then yes. But they are not in this instance.

    And Federal laws and regulations will trump local laws. The recruiters have just as much right to be there as the protesters have a right to protest outside of their premises.
     
  13. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    bells, your right. If they are acting LEGALLY then the councils and the states cant do much but if they started to act in a preditory manner then the states and the councils would be quite within there rights to take them to the high court. Thats excluding any action that the ACCC, the inspector General or the Abedsman would take. Then there is the politcal pressure on the goverment. I just cant see this happerning here

    not sure about this. Would have to get the exact population statistics of both nations PLUS the recruitment requirements for both nations
    Just because we are smaller doesnt mean that the goverment doesnt want a smaller DF by head of population. I just dont know
     
  14. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    i doubt it. Although we are deployed in the solomons, timor, iraq, afganistan and god knows how many other countries
     
  15. Bells Staff Member

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    Yes, but this is not about Australia.

    As far as the article in the OP is concerned, the Marines in this office do not go outside and hawk passers by demanding they enlist.

    Enlistment in the US is voluntary, not mandatory. But once you do enlist, I understand there is a few week's cooling off period if the individual changes their mind (not too sure about this.. possibly some of our fellow US poster's who have been in the military can enlighten me on this point).

    The council in this particular instance has no legal leg to stand on. They do not have a right to demand the recruitment office closes. The citizens of the town can protest all they want, at the end of the day, the Marines can simply ignore them. What is saddening is those who might want to enlist might feel pressured or threatened into not entering that office, for fear of reprisals. Imagine the poor men and women who have returned from the war and who happen to live in Berkeley? I wonder how they must feel to have their fellow townsfolk and council acting this way. It reeks back to the Vietnam war and the flack the soldiers faced when they returned.

    The US is free in that citizens should be allowed to go about their business without being spat on by protesters. I don't know why, but the protesters in this story remind me of the twats who picket the funerals of returned soldiers. They'd make Phelp's proud.

    If they have a problem with the war, spitting on the poor unfortunates who sign up to it or have returned from it is not the way to go.
     
  16. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    You do know that many young people are recruited straight out of high school?

    And the procedure?

    Just imagine this is your kid:


    More
     
  17. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Thats rediculas. The closest the millatry got to MY class was they had one stand with two board representives at the uni festival and i ocasionally see there stands with the same type of board people at uni funtions. The other ways are TV advertising and a link to defence off the federal goverment's job search website. Thats it. If you want to do it YOU go looking, there might be a poster saying that the army will help you with uni fees (HECS and living expences) but i couldnt tell you how it works because i had no intrest in chacing them up. I DO know that you have to serve the length of the degree plus one year. Thats all they can force you to do. The Army reserve is SLIGHTLY more agressive but by the same token they cant be deployed BY LAW unless you volentieer for the assignment. If they want you to go, you dont its tough mister army general, find someone else. Also you can quit on a days notice with them (ie if the goverment wanted to change the law the army reserve wouldnt exist before the bill hit the senate)

    I feel sorry for you guys, maybe i should petition the Australian goverment to give US citizans political aslum
     
  18. Bells Staff Member

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    To be honest, the recruitment practices you have linked us Sam remind me of the telemarketers most of us in Australia have to put up with. Thank Christ for the 'Do not call' register. As unethical as their recruitment practices might be, it is not illegal (as far as I am aware). And if it is illegal, those who are harassed by the Marines recruiters can file complaints with the relevant authorities in the Marines. And we have no indication that the Berkley recruitment office uses the same practice. As such, the council in question really has no authority in demanding they vacate the premises. They have a valid lease and are not doing anything illegal in being there.

    The protesters have the right to protest their presence, as does the council. But they have no legal right to demand they leave.
     
  19. sandy Banned Banned

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    FINALLY! A Republican senator with b@lls to do something. :bravo:

    Jim DeMint, (R-SC) says Berkeley no longer deserves federal money:

    "This is a slap in the face to all brave service men and women and their families! The First Amendment gives the City of Berkeley the right to be idiotic, but from now on they should do it with their own money. If the city can’t show respect for the Marines that have fought, bled and died for their freedom, Berkeley should not be receiving special taxpayer-funded
    handouts." :bravo:

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,327466,00.html

    The Marine office in Berkeley isn't going anywhere. Until the democrats take over.

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  20. ashura the Old Right Registered Senior Member

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    I think this is a disgraceful move on behalf of the senator. Like I said before, he's responding to an essentially meaningless move by the council with something that hurts the residents of Berkeley.
     
  21. sandy Banned Banned

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    And I think the whiney-@ss anti-America/morons/traitors need to be taught a lesson.
     
  22. sly1 Heartless Registered Senior Member

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    I don't think your even trying to understand where he is coming from. It looks like your trying to simplify the issue and paint him in a corner. Its quite obvious through his comments that he believes the reason there are suicide bombings is BECAUSE of America’s involvement in their affairs not because they just want to slaughter their children for fun.

    If America stays and continues its occupation the suicide bombings will continue. Regardless of whether or not he is wrong or right in believing this its quite obvious that IS his belief…..So knowing this…..you have answered your question of WHY he isn’t trying to preach to the terrorists…..and instead America.
     
  23. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    SAM is a woman, a Muslim to be exact and she has every right to ask questions. I only tried to find out why she doesn't say something against those who use children in suicide bombings in her native country rather that question the validity of of an American business. Also, if I might add, the suicide bombers are also in Israel, Spain, America, Germany as well.
     

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