Yea thats the attitude! But let's not forget the battle here at home, anyone here remember Stalin?, the best way to keep people in fear is to make everyone an enemy of the state. This is not going on here in the states you claim, think again...;http://www.keepandbeararms.com/newsarchives/XcNewsPlus.asp?cmd=view&articleid=2126 I hope the link works. If not well you all know were to find such contraversial issues. whareallyhappened, is were I found this!. I know, I know not a very reliable news source, however if you care to see the brochure here it is; http://whatreallyhappened.com/FBIsuspect.html So please, if you live in this country, be blinded by the flag, and don't fight for the constitution, you may be labeled a terrorist!.
I still dont understand why americans fight for the right to bear arms. In the uk we have no guns, our police dont carry guns, our fatality rate in gun related crime is a thousand flod less then that of america, the reason seem rather simple, you cant go into any corner shop in the uk and buy a gun. Why apart from hunting purposes would you want a gun, in an average american life, how many times do you need to draw a weapon to secure your life/property?
Good links, Godless ... yes, KalvinB, you did Godless Good links, sir. The topic link, while asserting nothing we didn't suspect or know already, is a convenient starting point for activism; it puts 5 of the most common assertions about the action on trial, and why not? We are, after all, the United States of America, and see ourselves as the shining republic. Ought not our military actions maintain the integrity of a moral leader, as well? After all, we're prone to advocating our morals overseas, as well as our greed. The ISI-connection link is one that I must give better attention at a later time. My first perusal found it quite fascinating, and now there remains the task of reconciling the rhetoric to the facts alleged. Thanks much for the links. KalvinB Well, sort of. You wrote of him in the presnt tense. thanx all, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
More on WTC!!! What I am posting here doesn't reflect my views I still think they are just theories but who knows. http://serendipity.magnet.ch/wtc.html
"Well, sort of. You wrote of him in the presnt tense." So? It's just symantics. "inside job" "The towers did not collapse because of the plane impacts and the fires. Possibly (but not certainly) explosives were placed besides their structural supports in the upper levels of the towers, explosives which were detonated 45 to 90 minutes after the planes hit, bringing the towers down in controlled implosions, killing over six thousand American citizens and others." How is that proven? Ben
Whoa-tay! No, it's called grammar. http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=grammar You know, they used to teach it in the schools. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
"You know, they used to teach it in the schools." Grammer, semantics...whatever. This is still a stupid side track to the purpose of the thread and the point of what I said. Ben
Well it's like this.... The fight to bear arms, is a quarantee by our constitution, in fact it's the second admendment. The reason our ancestors created this law of the land is to keep the goverment from taking advantage of the people. It was for a civilian militia which has no part of goverment, these groups of people still exist today. I think it's a way to quarantee our freedom. In Europe, if the cops come down with no reason at all, and bust down your doors, start beating and killing people, what are you going to do?. In America at least we can "shoot" a few of the bastards. However it's our right to bear arms, that keeps this goverment in check.
Shoot the bastards? Godless While I won't argue with this reality, nor will I moralize or split hairs over the phrase "well-regulated militia" in the 2nd Amendment, I thought I should at least point out that even into the 20th century, "shooting the bastards" doesn't get you much. Depending on how one feels about Koresh, he was either justified or not in opening fire and resisting a federal agency. However, we might also point out that when the Irish Republican Army rose up and shook the British out of the most part of the country, they started by "shooting the bastards". For the most part of my life, the IRA has been called terrorists for this. It's only in the internet and CNN age, when the news travels in seconds and governments can't regulate the information flow as well that people have started figuring out a little more about what's been going on in the occupied counties. While I agree that you can always "shoot the bastards", I find it interesting that this sacred right to resist your government gets people so little in practical terms. Two cents or so .... thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Re: Well it's like this.... Please... Do you honestly think that if the American government wanted to do something in particular to you that your ownership of a gun would stop them in some way? Did it stop them at Waco? The Taliban has far more, and far more powerful, weapons than any citizen of the United States owns and has it stopped the US government from doing what it feels is right? Don't get me wrong, I am a total advocate of owning arms, but in reality, that type of arguement is totally invalid. My arguement for the ownership of arms is that it is a freedom and right of mine outlined in the constitution and unless you have an extremely valid reason for changing the constitution on this matter, then you have no right to take away my guns until the constitution is changed.
I think we like to kill brown people or Arabs?? That's why we like to buy all those guns or maybe I am wrong. Please help me out here. Why there was a massive uprise in gun sales after 9 11?? Who are we gona fight with all those guns?? I am just confuse I guess.
Hmmm ... The Postal Militia? (Look out! He might be bringing anthrax!) I don't know what people expect when they buy guns. I just don't picture the Taliban hordes running through the streets of Seattle. Besides, people know our government will protect the white American from the dark-skinned people, just like they did during WWII. Maybe that's it: they're afraid that these inconvenient human rights will prevent the US government from rounding up all the dark-skinned Muslims in this country and locking them up for their ... uh ... protection. Or something. In the end, I think the gun sales are kind of a security blanket; the Islamic radicals aren't landing at Astoria anytime soon, so I think it's kind of like holding up a bible or garlic or something to chase away vampires. I think what will be telling is if the American birth rate increases because of this; strange as it seems, disasters make people want to reproduce, and as we go forward into the New Violence Order, people may want to share its fruits with new generations. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
"I just don't picture the Taliban hordes running through the streets of Seattle" The whole idea of the second amendment is to protect us from OUR government. We have what? 1 billion people in the US. That's one hell of an army. If the US Government ever tried to pull something so stupid it lead to a second revolution we have the right to bear arms so we can band together and take them out. Better to die free than live a slave. Or something. The first step to tyranny is disarming the citizens. The government army is to protect us from other countries. The police are to protect us from criminals. We are to have guns just in case the forementioned authorities go bad or if they can't be there to protect us when we need them. I don't think there's a country that hasn't overthrown it's government at one time or another. You're living in lala land if you think it could never happen again to your country. If you don't want to own a gun then fine. But you can't deny someone else that right. Ben
BRAVO!!BRAVO!! Hey!! Ben you took the words right out of my mouth. When someone asked me if I really think that nocking a few of the bastards out before I died, would make a difference, I forgot to think that's there 250+Million Citizens that would also nock a few of the bastards out!!. LOL. BTW all federal employees of this country together make about 750,000 people. The ods are against them!.
Im sure the police in our country would never kill civilians, the reason for this being they are civilians out of uniform, and to kill someone with a batton, well i bet thats too much like hard work. If our police had to carry guns around then it might be a different story, we have special groups of police that deal with any firearms crime, they have guns they know how to use them but we dont parade these blokes around in the street for everyone to see, like a break the law and you die threat. To buy a gun for your own protection, lol then how on earth can you call yourselfs free? Im free, i dont need a gun to go to the corner store, i dont feel my life is in danger if i dont protect myself. The idea of a civilian militia almost makes me sick, wtf is the point of having an army or a police force if every one has there own gun and dispatches there own form of justice wherever and whenever they feel like it? You say your right to carry a gun will protect you from the federal government, you could take all the guns you possibly could ever have and you still wouldent be able to put up any kind of defense if they chose to attack you. Guns are not made for protection, there made to kill and mame people, there is NO justification for having a gun in 21st century America, your constituion needs changing, unless of course you plan another civil war sometime soon? I could understand it 100 years ago, out on the wild planes, fair enough take a gun to "protect you" from native americans and wild life but if you live in a 21st century city what chance is there that your going to be attacked by a group of native americans? Whats the chance on you being chased down time square with a few bears chasing you? It aint gonna happen, but you've almost fucked yourselfs here, answer me one last question, how many people need to die before you relise there is no place for guns in the 21st century?
KalvinB, I couldn't agree more That's just the thing ... why, then, after an attack like this, do gun sales go up? What does 9/11 have to do with protecting ourselves from our own government? Are the people anticipating a martial crackdown? thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
People thought the war could end up being fought on our soil. Those without guns would either be refugees or prisoners of war depending on how fast they could run. Those with guns would be a great asset to our government army which surprisingly can't be everywhere at once. As Godless said there are only 750,000 government troops or something. When you don't care about blowing stuff up, you don't need many people. A few jets can take out a city no problem. But when you want to keep your cities in tact you need all the ground forces you can get. Ben
Something about those Taliban hordes? I hold myself answered: Like I said, a security blanket. I don't see a mass landing at Astoria; I don't expect Afghani jets streaking up my sunset. It's all well and fine to want to protect yourself, but let's take a look at 3 attacks on the nation: WTC '93, WTC '01, and Murrah Federal Building--who the hell is there to shoot in defense? I suppose I'm curious because I find myself apparently mistaken in my assessment of your counterpointing the Taliban hordes running through Seattle. It would appear we have no point in dispute, except perhaps the sarcasm I aim toward those buying guns specifically in response to 9/11. And that would be entirely up to you. In other words, I'm unsure if we're at any odds here, but I'm also unsure if we're actually on the same track. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Gun sales after 911 went up, because, people were afraid, more attacks will cause riots to break out and want to protect themselves. It is a feel good thing... BTW, the US constitution says it is our right to bear arms. Unfortunately arms can be defined to the standards of those glorious days. That means you can not have machine guns, larger clips, gatlin guns, tanks or other major fire power. Which means the arms are limited to personal protection from robbers and thieves - and not the government. One uses voting system to get rid of the government legislative body. There is no practical mechanism to get rid of government or justice branch employees. And if the US government ever opresses its people, no other power on earth is available to liberate the people. This wont happen because, our economic supremacy depends on freedom of the society. As soon as they are clamped down, we will become another second grade country. Just watch the airport securities procedure and see how it affects economy over time.
You know, I am not much of one for supporting the NRA. You send money and like a politician they want more and then more still yet. I have my serious doubts that all that money goes for good things or even only to support the advocated ideas. I own a gun because I can. Do I use it? No, I do not. Maybe tomarrow I get hungry and need it but not today. In truth owning a gun will get you little in the way of protecting your self from your government except dead. One man, no matter how well armed, is not going to resist a police force, federal agency, or military troops. Much less a combined gang of them as is usually done. All it will get you is the label "criminal" and all that it entitles you to. Such as free room and board. Be it however basic. Waco was a good demonstration of this. Only the commune members owned a little more than your basic handgun or hunting rifle. I had heard of no commune member threating the local populace and by all accounts pretty much kept to themselves. The ATF were after them for those "illegal" purchases of beyond basic firearms. And from there it was flubbled and fumbled until it got out of hand. After that it is my firm belief that they were made an example and that the devices that produced the fires were purposely choosen for that side effect with full knowledge of the consequences. (I am not sure that it was ever proved though I know that it was investigated). Happenstance made it worse by the kerosene lantern fuel but the structure was wood to begin with. I too, do not expect that I will see the Taliban Air Force and ground troops in my neighborhood. And I can not say that the excitement of such would be to my likening. I would have no issue with them if they had not choosen the USA for target practice both at home and abroad. But they have and I have little sympathy for what befalls them. It is of their own making.
