Lucretius Owns Organic Chemists

Discussion in 'Chemistry' started by OilIsMastery, Aug 3, 2008.

  1. OilIsMastery Banned Banned

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    "At this stage you must admit that whatever is seen to be sentient is nevertheless composed of atoms that are insentient. The phenomena open to our observation do not contradict this conclusion or conflict with it. Rather they lead us by the hand and compel us to believe that the animate is born, as I maintain, of the insentient." -- Lucretius
     
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  3. Vkothii Banned Banned

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    Therefore: all living things are made out of chemicals that, by themselves, cannot be said to be living.

    Or something?

    I think a lot of people might already know about that one.

    Or, you're about to tell us that life is an illusion, perhaps? We're really all some kind of inanimate machines?
     
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  5. dexter ROOT Registered Senior Member

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    well said.
     
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  7. OilIsMastery Banned Banned

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    "The subject of organic chemistry was wrongly taken by petroleum geologists long ago to mean chemistry of biologic origins. You can still have a book of organic chemistry that has nothing to do with organisms at all." -- Thomas Gold, 2002
     
  8. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Try making sense.
     
  9. OilIsMastery Banned Banned

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    I posted two direct quotes. What doesn't make sense to you? Here's a better question: is there anything in the universe that does make sense to you?
     
  10. Vkothii Banned Banned

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    One thing that doesn't make sense to me is what posting two quotes that say something everyone knows who's been to school, connects with petroleum?

    What sort of idiot would think it supports the theory that petroleum is abiotic?
     
  11. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    The title of this thread makes no sense. The factoid about the "organic chemistry" label is a non-sequitur. It doesn't mean that oil comes from non-organic source material.
     
  12. OilIsMastery Banned Banned

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    Carbon is not alive nor is it biological. Carbon is an abiotic chemical element and the fourth most common in the universe.
     
  13. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    It is accumulated in organisms.
     
  14. OilIsMastery Banned Banned

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    So? It's also accumulated everywhere else in the universe where everything is dead. Take your biology garbage to the Biology forum or the Religion forum where it belongs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2008
  15. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    This is something akin to bizzare.

    If you look into the history of Organic chemistry, it was initially about the study of the chemicals of organisms.

    Discussing vitalism is about as relevant as discussing the Phlogiston Theory of oxidation.

    Vitalism was discarded when it was discovered that we could synthesize Urea - at that point, under Vitalism considered an organic compound (because it was made within the body) by heating Ammonium Cyanate.

    What precisely are you trying to say here?

    That not all Organic compounds are made by life forms? Nothing new there, got taught that in highschool Organic chemistry, and anyone who hasn'f figured that out by University is in for a real shock (unless you can show me a life form that synthesizes Polystyrene, or mustard gas - both defined as being organic compounds).
     
  16. desi Valued Senior Member

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    I thought organic chemistry was the study of hydrocarbon chemistry. Obviously different atomic compositions determine whether something is alive or not. There is even something called Life Gems which are diamonds made from the carbon of dead people. Its sort of odd but it illustrates the point about chemistry being adaptive.
     
  17. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    No, Hydrocarbon chemistry is a sub branch of Organic chemistry, that strictly speaking, deals with Alkanes, Alkenes, Alkynes, and their cyclic versions.

    Strictly speaking Organic Chemistry is now defined as any chemistry that involves Carbon. So, carbon tetrachloride, although not a hydrocarbon (it contains no hydrogen) still falls under Organic chemistry (it's the end member of a family of halo-alkanes).

    Organometallics deals with the reactions and bondings between carbon based molecules, and metals.
     
  18. OilIsMastery Banned Banned

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    I agree. Vitalism and biogenic theory are very very bizarre.

    "The subject of organic chemistry was wrongly taken by petroleum geologists long ago to mean chemistry of biologic origins. You can still have a book of organic chemistry that has nothing to do with organisms at all." -- Thomas Gold, 2002
     
  19. Vkothii Banned Banned

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    Another echo... ?

    It's like being told by someone that whale oil is better for heating the old homestead, or something. Or that spears can have iron tips these days, instead of the usual stone.
     
  20. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    You can tell what he's trying to say, He professes that Oil is not based on life and would more than likely point to other planets and say "there is Oil up there".

    He just tends to neglect that any Unnatural (Artificial) creation of a Petrochemical is going to require laboratories and/or processing plants, which in turn consumes energy. You basically won't find crude under the surface of another planet, if the planet itself has never sustained life because of the complexity of petrochemical molecules.
     
  21. OilIsMastery Banned Banned

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    LOL.

    PAHs exist all over the universe in nebulae and interstellar dust particles.

    Titan has 7 alkanes.
     
  22. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    You've just confirmed my point. The PAH's require processing, in this instance you are talking about entire nebulae's causing the formation of a complex molecule, it's not something that "just appears" or is "readily available". It's not like you could take some Carbon and some Hydrogren, throwa little Oxygen, Nitrogen and Sulphur in for good measure and put it in a Box, seal the box and just shake them into a complex molecule.

    You'd require a number of variables like Temperature & Pressure to name two to even start to formulate complex chains.
     
  23. OilIsMastery Banned Banned

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    I'm glad you recognize abiotic hydrocarbons in the universe are infinite.

    You're right. It's much simpler than that. All you need is iron oxide, marble, and water: http://www.pnas.org/content/99/17/10976.full
     

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