Living With ADHD

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by Brutus1964, Jul 30, 2005.

  1. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,232
    I was going to post the following:
    Duendy, please piss off. We are having a serious discussion here.Self righteous, delusional hypocrites, such as yourself are not welcome. I am sick to my eye teeth of you turning every single post into a a diatribe against the establisment, big business, the conspiracy merchants, the schools, the medical profession, the politicians. Did I miss anyone out? I'm sure I did. You are so filled with hate for just about every segment of humanity (except of course the children, and victims of bullying) I imagine you find it difficult to leave your home with the weight of the baggage. Could you please give it bloody rest. With your refusal to use proper quotes, your reactive launch into vitriolic diatribe at the sight of almost any post, your persistence in typing almost unintelligble communications, and host of other quirks, you turn out to be one of the biggest bullies on the site.
    At the end of it all you come across as grossly unattractive.

    Then I thought that to post that would be to allow Duendy to win, by turning me into a victim of my own anger against her dehumanising sentiments. So I decided not to.

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  3. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    well i am not s up the arse asyou are, so i will make it plain. Ophilolite or whatver yer silly ruddy name is....?piss off!

    but will he listen? no.

    look you moth eaten old grump. listen to what's being said and stop projecting yor crap onto others/ now cant get plainer than that can i?
     
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  5. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    5,502
    Both Wes and Ophiolite have put a lot of excess verbiage into explaining that their verbal abuse is not verbal abuse, which is another way of saying that theirs doesn't stink. Right now I'm having a hard time believing Ophiolite's story about having had strokes.

    QQ, a lot depends on how much energy I have over the next few days. I had probably better get someone to at least listen to my heart. The one piece of evidence that I have against the heart attack theory is that as nearly as I could tell, my heart rate did not change during the episodes, and I checked. Maybe also I am too sensitive to the abuse. What someone refuses to understand is that psychological abuse, especially right there and then, can be just as debilitating. If I had Wes on the hot seat somewhere and gave him some psychological abuse, he would blow up and he would have no trouble blaming it on me. The best self control in the world can be undermined by physical exhaustion, pain, illness, and injury. Sometimes the only way to save yourself is to leave the trap.

    I don't know how much energy I am going to have to continue with debates. Even with adequate food, more than adequate rest, appropriate exercise, I am having trouble concentrating and sometimes having a lot of trouble sitting up in this chair. I have a project that I need to use what energy I have on, and I don't know if I can complete it with or without all of the time and energy that I have left. I am not a particularly diligent worker on this thing lately, even if I did work myself to death trying to keep up with the job so that I might be able to keep that job.

    Control of a victim by a bully is a reality. It is very very difficult to break. There is some sort of real conspiracy going on. If a bully finds a victim who is doing his best to break out of the mold, he might try to force that victim back into that mold. The means that the bully might use can be pretty drastic. One of them dropped a box on my head weighing 25 pounds from a height of just about 7 feet. This means it had one and a half feet to drop, soft impact of about 37 foot pounds. This isn't even as much impact as a half-hearted thump on top of the head with a fist. He made it look like I had handed the box up to him and just let it go to soon, but it came down with a force that made it feel like my brain had exploded out of my ears and eyeballs. My eyes rolled up in my head and vibrated. Witnesses were scared by what they saw. This same genius jumped down the ladder and took the box away when I tried to sit down on it too, and I had to hold myself up from falling while on unsteady feet. It was more than three weeks before I could move without my head feeling like it was going to fall off, and I took verbal abuse for moving slowly, and I had to work almost every day of that three weeks. That was the beginning of the end of a job where I was doing well and saving money before.

    I'm done with dealing with the denial that psychological damage is inflicted by bullies. Those two here are going to screw me no matter what and try to make it look like they're the good guys, just like the people who did me at work. Even stating the case that the bullies often use physical reinforcement screws me, because they will turn right around and say that it means that the ones who don't can't damage me at all.
     
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  7. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Hmm.. Ophiolite, I think there's a flip side to the coin you're putting on table. I don't know how serious you are about being a "victim of your own anger", but IMO, there's no such thing. Anger is a very natural, human thing. The trick is releasing it constructively. If you end up bottling up all your anger in an attempt to compensate for your previous reactions to being bullied, you've been manipulated into another form of dehumanization.
     
  8. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Metakron, you've been sorely infected with a mental virus that has forever altered your perception. The only way I understand that your perception can change is if you begin to question its validity. You're stuck in a catch 22, in which your perception is "the only thing that keeps you alive", which you implicitely trust... but it's infected by the virus that was pounded into you as a child. It lies to you, but you refuse to see it because as far as you see it, it's all you have. It's the only thing that cares about you (your sense of injustice), and constantly fortifies your ego by vindicating you of responsibility for anything. What a self-destructive cycle. That sucks.
     
  9. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    9,232
    Wes, I agree that anger is natural, but that does not necessarily mean it is always good. I certainly don't think anger should be bottled up. What I think is far more effective is not to become angry in the first place.
    Anger is typically a reaction. Humans are at their best when they are pro-active. I appreciate that may sound as if I am drifitng into jargon, but these are terms I am comfortable with when explaining my views in this area.
    When I hear or see something that could make me angry I actually have a choice facing me. I can choose to be angered by it, or I can choose not to be angered by it. In either event I can also choose to try to do something about it, or not. So I have a matrix of four possibilities.
    1. Angry and do nothing (bottling up)
    2. Angry and do something (negative reaction)
    3. Not angry and do nothing (acceptance)
    4. Not angry and do something (positive reaction)
    I favour 3 or 4 depending upon the character of the event.
     
  10. river-wind Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,671
    I would be careful of such advice without knowing more about the case, but you are correct in your details. Diet plays a huge part in ADHD symptoms; managing sugar intake, esp as a child appears to have a greater effect, in many cases, than does medication.


    very wise.

    So what can be done for these poor poweerless souls such that they no longer feel a need to prey on others? Is there anything? Or is it their nature to feed?

    edit - and yes, the question "what is power" is a good one, though I don't want to get into it quite yet. It is a large question, and I think it would stall us in an uneeded way at the moment. The bully's understanding of power is clear enough for the purposes of this discussion - would you agree?



    Correct. Difficult. We never claimed that it would be easy.



    edit: failed to refresh, and just read QQ comments. I fully agree; very informative. My question to duendy is trying to focus on a more constructive method for dealing with 'bullies' - not just pulling the rug out from under them by ceasing to react. While that solves your problem, it tends to make the bully simply find someone else to focus on.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2005
  11. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    6,585

    no, what sucks ...is your psychobabble
     
  12. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    6,585
    @@@@@@@@@@@PPPPPPPPPPPPQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ()
     
  13. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    me:::is that so
     
  14. Serb05 Banned Banned

    Messages:
    42
    Hmmm... Do i have ADHD? i cant be fucked listening to anything in Math class and often find myself thinking of my fellow female class mates naked, in a bath... mmm...

    As i was saying, i think ADHD/ADD is overrated bullshit. Just because there happen to be many boring people and subjects in this world does not mean that there is something wrong with your brain. I find myself spending hours at a certain activity, trying to perfect my skills/design. I don't think its anything out of the ordinary, and i don't think you should either. Fuck the pills... shove em up your doctor's ass, for all you know he's giving you carved chalk, and the ADHD is all in your head.
     
  15. river-wind Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,671
    We do? I don't see that we have reached a logical basis for that claim yet. We have in front of us a number of possible factors which could be effecting the symptoms involved - diet, exersize, childhood, genetics. Diet and exersize are the only two which can largely be altered on a whim. Childhood and genetics have not yet been wiped off the board; at least not in this thread.

    Can you be sure that genetics are not a factor? Can you be sure that MetaKron's hypothesis of chilhood conditioning is not a factor?

    I agree. Proper education seems to be the most effective tool in battling violence.

    You are right. Learning to walk through yourself is the most difficult thing in life, IME.
     
  16. Roman Banned Banned

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    11,560
    No... it's in your leg.
     
  17. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    6,585
    things ar VERY VERYtough for many many people!
     
  18. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    9,844
    Hmm.. might I present the possibility that anger is a tool? IMO, it's not necessarily a bad thing. It provides contrast. It's a protective circuit. It can be a very bad thing if it overwhelms you, but so long as it's limited by a moderating behavior circuit (tm).... it has a function. To me, I don't want to "never become angry", basically because of that whole yin-yang thing. I wouldn't however, want to STAY angry, which is why I purge it through its expression. Of course I don't seek anger, but I don't see it necessarily as a choice (personally). I'm just doing what I do. If I AM angry however, I DO take responsibility for it. In terms of being angry, I basically I expect that if you can relate, you'll understand. If you can't, then so be it. I do not apologize for my humanity. I accept it and well, I love it - foibles and all.

    Nah, not too jargonish. I like what you're shooting for there.

    2 doesn't bother me - as I view it as part of being. I don't really go far out of my way to avoid it unless the circumstances seem to mandate it. I just think that some things in life are appropriately responded to with anger.

    It'd be interesting to have a thread regarding the function, utility and pitfalls of anger. I'll try to remember to start one. Feel free to start one if you'd like (if I forget) and link me please.

    EDIT: Nevermind just did it http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=882114#post882114.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2005
  19. river-wind Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,671
    ok, I will visit the library tonight and see if I can find something of his. I have myself been diagnosed w/ ADD, LD and chronic depression, and no longer take any medication.
    I can tell you that my conditions are very real; only through hard work was I able to break free of the medications and still function in this society (my choice to do so). However you might feel about the medications socially, when dealing with the biochemistry, they did make a difference, even when I tried hard to make sure they didn't (who wants to admit their own need for medication, their own weaknesses and abnormailties?). I hope that my appeal to authority (my own expirience) can be of use to you.
    edit:
    http://www.adhdfraud.com/
    http://www.adhdfraud.com/emails/051003-1.htm
    for anyone interested in reading. He does have some good points, though I already see a few things that I disagree with.
    I agree that the definition of normal is more variable than people would like to admit, and that variety in the human race is not an "illness" but it's strength. ADD is not a desease, but a label applied to those different from the norm. This, by itself, has no inherent good or bad nature to it; it simply is (and has been supported by physical studies of the subject). The good or the bad of ADD comes from how people handle it, and how society chooses to value it.
    However, if one's goal in life is to function within society, then certain freedoms must be limited for the sake of interplay between individuals (ADD or not). Those exibiting behaviors suggestive of ADD who are non-functional in society due to those behaviors, and who show remarkable improvement in functionality when taking medication, suggest a value in that medication.
    Well, who gets to decide what is acceptable individual variation between people, and what is not? For one of the first times in the history of the world, *we do*. We have a democracy that was designed to allow for the expression and representation of all of our ideas. It may not be perfect, it may be heavily influenced by power and money, it may need a shake up from time to time. But it's better to have the chance of good then to give up and allow a dictator to gain control.
    So let's decide. Killers should be seperated from society (you suggest jail). I agree with this. What about other violent criminals? What qualifies as a violent crime? what about people prone to violent criminality, who havce not yet commited a crime? What about people who are violent to animals, but not people? What about people who are verbally and emotionally abusive, but never hit?
    What about people who do no work to feed and clothe themselves? To help others?
    What about those who harm other's ability to function? And those who do it unintentionally?

    As to your comments of genetics as a part of the blame game, - do you not believe that behavior is at all beholdent to genes? Is human behavior, in your view, only a matter of nurture, with nature playing no part?

    It's not that the behavior is deemed not acceptable "due to past trauma". It is deemed not acceptable because it infringes on the freedoms of the other children in the class (or the other adults on the worksite). As you yourself say; "they are running an oppressive system". This is very true.
    For the good of the rest of the class, the small percentage which exhibits an *extraordinary* amount of the symptoms of ADD/ADHD, too the point of being non-functional and endlessly disruptive in a class environment, are given medication (in theory. Over-diagnosis and misdiagnosis results in too many kids being force-fed drugs, and many kids not getting the medication that they need to function in society). This is, however, a different discussion - this is politics, not medicine.

    The trauma which created the behavior that has been deemed unacceptable did not just generate a habit; in those who show post-traumatic stress disorder, the physical structure and function of the brain is different from common (instead of using the word normal - just biologically common for the human species).
    Be it genetics or truamatic conditioning, if the biochemical nature of a person's brain is different from normal, and the presence of medication can alter the function of the brain closer to that common level, then is the medication bad?
    Even if the individual wants to be "normal"? even if they have a choice, and choose to take the medication?

    Secondarily - if a person is being non-functional and disruptive in a class or work environment, and medication helps, should it be used? When you are dealing with the infringment of freedoms of the others in that environment, something needs to be done. If non-chemical solutions are available, I think they should be used first.
    Meditation, focused effort to teach self-control. However, ADD is a variance. If there is a person who is *so* effected by these problems that meditation and training are not effective, then medication is a viable option which should be considered.
    If the medication has any kind of effect on the behavior/attention/depression of one person who strongly resited admiting that those effects existed(as in me), then it is almost certianly doing something chemically in the brain, no? If the chemical can effect my brain in a calming way, and the same chemical can effect most of my friends and family in the completely opposite way, then there must be some kind of physical/chemical difference in the brain which is receiving the chemical, no?

    you seem to suggest that genetics leads to differences in people, but that people's actions and behaviors should not be attributed to those differences? (if I misunderstood, please correct me. this was my interpretation of your reply.).

    yes, they are. I wish every day that I could solve this as a simple math equation, and hand out the solution to the world.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2005
  20. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    5,502
    You know, there is that, but there is also abuse that can cause a lot of damage even when you don't feel anger about it, just frustration at what is going on at the time. How can they get at someone who isn't angry? By doing things that hurt if you are angry or not. No matter how positive my attitude, I will collapse when forced beyond my physical limits, just like anyone else, even were my physical limits greater than anyone else's. Also, you've been calling me a wimp for not being able to take abuse that no one could take.
     
  21. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,502
    There is a lot of truth in that, and as I said to Ophiolite "that's better." That means that you are talking to me the way a human talks.

    You can call my perceptions "filtered" but this is the filter of experience. I have to be able to place a certain amount of trust in my perceptions, or I am truly crazy even if the distrust is what people force me to practice so that I can become "fit" for "society." Which perceptions are the truth and which are the lie? My experience and other people's experiences that I have read about tell me that there is a lot of truth to the theory that there is a lot of bullying. A lot of the bullying is invisible even to the perpetrators. You have to see it from the outsider's point of view. It's exactly as if there are still "primitive" societies where it is considered normal for adults to have sex with 11 year old boys and girls. To them the abuse is invisible. No one in their society considers it to be abuse. Our society sees abuse and will go in there with guns to try to correct that, and impose our own mores on them, but definitely, we see abuse. Americans and Brits definitely look like abusers from the outside. I've been an outsider for quite some time. I see the abuse. I see what looks like spirit possession. Anger becomes the possessor and the victims of this possession base all of their judgements on that anger, fine tuning their destructive urges according to what makes them angry or fearful. I am a much more rational person than you might think. It is very difficult for me to deal with this kind of irrationality. I am almost entirely unable to see someone as rational who uses the words of anger to push a point. I have encountered very few such people who are, and a lot more who are into insane violence.
     
  22. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    5,502
    Left leg, right leg, or middle leg? :m:
     
  23. river-wind Valued Senior Member

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    2,671
    lol.
    When it comes to us guys, I vote for the last option. Nothing else in the world can cause distraction like that middle leg.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2005

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