Lilith

Discussion in 'Comparative Religion' started by R1D2, Nov 5, 2013.

  1. R1D2 many leagues under the sea. Valued Senior Member

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    Who's she and is she really in the bible? Do you feel she was Adams real first wife? Where else in myths does she appear?
     
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  3. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    [/U][/B]
    Back in 2003 we had a discussion about Lilith: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?27432-Who-was-Lilith In follow-up to the latest inquiry, I believe that Lilith does appear in the Torah. However, the theory about Lilith disappearing from the ancient texts was not necessarily about her dislike of assuming the missionary position. It was more about Adam's demand to have superior dominion over womankind. Well, we see what happened with Eve in the GoE, but that's how it was written by the patriarchy. The woman still had dominion over the man after Lilith departed. Quibbling over what was written in ancient texts is futile. It's all a mythstory anyway.
     
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  5. R1D2 many leagues under the sea. Valued Senior Member

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    Ok, thanks..
     
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  7. mathman Valued Senior Member

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    The idea comes from the fact that Genesis starts with two versions of the creation. So the myth is that Lilith was the wife in the first version.
     
  8. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    There are a lot of stories & novels about Lilith and/or her descendants. Many are quite interesting. Some depict her & descendants as evil & others depict her & descendents as okay people. Most attribute special powers/knowledge to her and/or her descendants.

    some of the older Hebrew stories depict her as demonic.
     
  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I think this maybe of interest,

    http://www.bitterwaters.com/Lilith_in_Bible.html
     
  10. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Modern feminist pseudo-mythology says that Eve was actually created first. She was getting along fine but she felt that something was missing from the world.

    God said, "I've noticed that. I've decided to create a man to fix that flaw."

    Eve: What's a "man?"

    God: You'll just have to wait and see. Basically he's a lot like you, but with some interesting differences. He thinks he's always right, he spends a lot of time drinking alcohol, he loves to kill animals and eat them.

    Eve: Um... what's the good part?

    God: Well, he's not too bad in the sack.

    At this point Eve gives up, not wanting to continue pestering God with questions like "What's a sack?" She just says, "Okay, you've been good to me so far, I'll just wait and enjoy this 'man' you're so generously making for me."

    God: Well, there's just one more thing.

    Eve: (Under her breath) Why am I not surprised? (Aloud) What's that, my Lord.?

    God: He's very conceited and we have to play into that. So I need you to let him believe that I made him first.
     
  11. R1D2 many leagues under the sea. Valued Senior Member

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    Thx write4_u. Good info... and F.R. heard that "joke" before.... good one. Thanks all for the input....
     
  12. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    Lilith appears in the canonical Old Testament in one or two lines, but it's ambiguous as to whether it refers to a singular figure, or refers to a group of creatures and is plural. Various translations refer to them as a screech owl, centaurs, satyrs, or lamia. Her place in Jewish mythology around the time of Christianity's origin was not well-defined, and the only text mentioning her among the Dead Sea Scrolls is a list of monsters; it's unambiguously Lilith, but the figure is not given any other detail than the name. But, we can connect this reference to certain artifacts from the 6th century onwards that depict Lilith as a demon or monster.

    The more defined mythology for Lilith doesn't appear until the early Middle Ages, initially in commentaries on the Bible written by Persian Jews. The story of her being Adam's first wife before being cast out and mating with fallen angels first shows up in the Alphabet of Ben Sira. After that, the concept proliferates in Jewish mysticism and folklore. Christian mythology kinda adopts it during the revival of esotericism in the Renaissance. Been part of pop culture ever since.
     
  13. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    I enjoyed some of the Lilith stories, but not the ones which portrayed her as demonic.
     
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    No difference than the story of Eve, who brought about the fall of man. The male "made in the image of god" has to have someone to blame for his shortcomings. Women (and snakes) are the natural choice.
    Can't very well blame butterflies and bees now, can we?
     
  15. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    Lilith was the first wife of Adam, who was formed at the same time. However, she was not formed out of dust like Adam, but from muck. The difference between dust and muck is water. Lilith was formed with extra water. Water is symbolic of thoughts which gave her a mind of her own. In tradition, she is smart but sort of a nag.

    Lilith was in charge of birth and young children, which is why she did not like Adam limiting her to one sexual position. Adam on top would give the male more choice as to when to have children; when he could afford them. Lilith wanted to control all of birth, from the very beginning, eventually leading to too many unwanted and demonic children (inner city and gangs). They did not have a welfare state in Eden to mop up after Lilith, so she leaves Eden. Lilith also has an affair with one of the angels. After she leave Eden, she is asked to come back to Eden but refuses, so there is a curse on her where a hundred of her demonic children are killed each day. She was a Ho.

    Eve was a second prototype of woman, who is made from Adam's rib. This makes her more of a female clone of Adam since God uses the DNA of Adam. He does not start from scratch but from a template. The ribs protect the heart which symbolically makes her heart closer to Adam. She is a better wife for Adam, but with the flaw of liking to be lied to by other males. Eve is why revisionist history appeals to women and why various con artists seem to have more influence with women than honest guys. Women like the bad boys. Nevertheless, Adam likes her and follows her out of paradise. She was not a ho and birth Adam three children, all of which were boys, due to the cloning.
     
  16. R1D2 many leagues under the sea. Valued Senior Member

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    W.W. if the boys are the only "kids" to adam and eve. How is there more "offspring"??
     
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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  18. R1D2 many leagues under the sea. Valued Senior Member

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  19. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    Biology defines human based on DNA. But the bible defines the first humans in terms of consciousness (spirit). Adam and Eve represent where will power and free choice allows humans to break the connection with genetic based instinct (fall from paradise). Although the minds of Adam and Eve were modern, they were an exception. There were still plenty of genetic based humans; pre humans. They would breed with them. The bible infers this from the story and Cain and Abel.

    When Cain is about to be banished by God, for killing Abel, Cain says whomever shall come upon me shall kill me. So he is given a sign for protection. If there were only Adam, Eve and Cain at that point, who were these whomever Cain needed protection from; the genetic or natural humans still connected to instinct. I would guess Cain would have had the lion's share of the pretty genetic human females since natural selection was still in effect for the pre humans. Cain had will power, choice, smarts, his sign making him alpha.

    Lilith was an archetype of a first modern woman, but who was not optimized for the pitfalls of free will and choice. This is why she and her offspring are associated with demons. Picture an intelligent but manipulative and nagging, Ho. Men don't stay around for long, but they will frequent her for pleasure or be lured in by her manipulative charms. Her children have no father, while her sons learn to be males by the example set by their manipulative mother. They become less than model citizens but with male strength, moodiness and impulse. I picture the inner city with gangs of violent males from broken homes taught by the examples of a manipulative mother, leaving their own children, but without welfare. This is why so many of her children die each day as a curse. It was a nasty path for willful humans and not conductive to advancing civilization. Eve was more wholesome and humans pair off leading to stability.
     
  20. R1D2 many leagues under the sea. Valued Senior Member

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    You didn't read my last link I left guys.... So click on link I found an left in post 15... Informative IMO
     
  21. spandrel Registered Member

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    Watered by mist eh? Hmmmm.
     
  22. Sithsaber Registered Member

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    1. Lilith is a succubus

    2. There are plenty of Semitic and preAbrahamic antecedents to her story.
     
  23. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    She's referred to briefly in the Old Testament, but the text is unclear. The term may be singular or plural, and might simply refer to a screech owl. The literal translation is "night howler" or "night woman", but it appears in a list of animals.
    What is clear is that the term has antecedents in Mesopotamian mythologies as a category or type of demon, which contributed towards the Hebrew folklore surrounding Lilith. The first textual reference to her as a demon is in some of the Dead Sea Scrolls, in which her name appears in a list of monsters. But nothing much else shows up in the archaeological record until Late Antiquity, where we find the name etched into magical amulets and incantation bowls aimed at protected the users from Lilith.
    This implies that there may be a continuity between Late Second Temple Judaism and Rabbinic Judaism in the cultural conception of Lilith as a female demon. But little else can be surmised from it.

    As far as Jewish mythology is concerned, the reference to her being Adam's wife occurs in an 8th century text relating to Jewish mysticism. It's certainly not a mainstream Jewish idea or Rabbinic teaching. Some later work on Kabbalah and Jewish mysticism developed a richer mythology for Lilith, including her being a succubus and giving birth to giants from couplings with fallen angels, but again this isn't exactly mainstream. It's mostly mystical, esoteric, or occult thought.

    The reason for Lilith and her mythology being popular now is a rather complicated subject, but it can be rooted to the popularity of folklore and the Western Occult tradition in modern media.
     

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