Life inside a Computer

Discussion in 'Intelligence & Machines' started by kmguru, Sep 8, 2001.

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  1. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    Btw with all thats been said in this thread previously, there is no point trying to point out that people have been looking at building quibit computers that involved the movement of molecular parts for storage and computation.

    In a sense they are just trying to mimick the world around us, in the sense that, when you put down your keys it's usually in the place you left them.
    Although sometimes theres floating point errors when someone moves them without your knowledge.
     
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  3. eburacum45 Valued Senior Member

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  5. Rick Valued Senior Member

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    This thread need Carbon Dating.hehehe...

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    Anyways,This is interesting.If you are sending Alife Robotic Computer Beings,(Having Several Backup Copies of the orignial personalities) on a space mission,there is no harm in it.In fact on long journeys it would be just perfect i think.



    bye!
     
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  7. DennisGorelik Registered Senior Member

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    Well, actually you are talking about strong AI now.
    This AI will have memory of real person and will communicate with other people.

    Cris, could you email me at: (ai at dennisgorelik.com)
     
  8. kmguru Staff Member

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    There is nothing new in AI, we are getting ahead of ourselves. May be one of these days when dual-core 64-bit chips are on our desktop and an advanced version of Forth language show up - we could test it out. Anyone has any ideas, what are the new developments in the gaming world?
     
  9. Fallen Angel life in every breath Registered Senior Member

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    there's a book that really well takes a shot at describing the universe and what it would be like with our minds capable of uploading to computer. Schild's Ladder by Greg Egan. Tho even there, it seems that copies are running around and there is no original per se. just copies remembering everything the original did. As it was mentioned here earlier, there would need to be a continuum for the copy to be the real you. As in, you enter the virtual world piece by piece so you don't die in the process and a copy of you takes over. Because then, that's not much of self-preservation now is it?
     
  10. mza Registered Member

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    one thing i thought of, that i dont think has been mentioned, is when your mind is converted into this digital format to be in the computer system, your consciousness doesnt switch over as well. you would become two beings, and when you die thatd be it, you dont suddenly think youre in the computer system and living still. so i wonder what purpose it would serve, other than a HUGE speaking library

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    where very large amounts of knowledge could be amassed and great minds could think and calulate things with an extremely fast computer and so on and so forth and itd certainly advance science a hell of a lot.
     
  11. Rick Valued Senior Member

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    We cannot map an Einstein anymore...

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    but yes,it could be potentially a huge Lib...interesting thought...

    bye!
     
  12. kmguru Staff Member

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    One way to create this digital world would be to mathematically model planet Earth just like we do for weather or big bang. The modeling has to be done when the Earth was just forming. If it is accurate enough and inside a tomorrow's super computer, there is a very likelyhood that you will see vegetation and sea creatures etc. With some twiks, eventually we can see humanoids and perhaps intelligent beings...

    Now, if we can interface our world to the digital world.....
     
  13. Rick Valued Senior Member

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    This will be VERY VERY VERY difficult.I would say this Km, because just imagine the amount of predictor values which will be required to make a possible prediction.Today,we are already modelling common business problems of Multi-dimensional nature,but this is BIG.We are talking about Thousands of variables(possibly millions of variables) to fit a curve in order to make a prediction?!!!!...This is simply impossible for todays computers.I bet we wont be able to do this for next 10 years.Also,Km you have to take into account The Random changes that occur,and allow us to deviate from what would kind of prediction.Nature to Model is quite difficult.Take an example of Sampling: what are the samples that you'd take to predict weather? you cannot possibly take all the possible values for making a prediction.(Since it is not available altogether.)So,you will have to satisfy yourself with small samples.Now,these samples may or may not be sufficient to plot a prediction curve for changing weather...

    bye!
     
  14. Rick Valued Senior Member

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    And it is precisely why i think Climate prediction is like a Job of a Sibyl,with a little clairvoyant thought behind it...Not the real mainstream science....


    bye!
     
  15. kmguru Staff Member

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    You are looking the problem from the wrong vantage point, zion. You are looking at the end result and not the DNA or the kernel. Yes, it is difficult to start in the middle. But, starting from the seed or the DNA is comparatively way easier.

    Let me try another way, If you know and understand the DNA of a plant or a simple life form, you can combine the base protein to form a new DNA and make it grow to whatever attribute you want to provide. You can make green rose, purple rose or yellow rose, if you know the specific coding in the DNA. However, you may not use that knowledge to produce a full rose plant by connecting protein molecules.

    So, basically, you need to start with the planet DNA or the seed which is easier than the product in the middle of the cycle. Provided you know the seed DNA. It is nevertheless way easier.

    That is why, weather forecasting has not worked, because we are looking at a subset of the dynamic organism. It is like reading one sentence in the middle of a 1000 page book and extrapolate to the whole page or the book.

    To understand more about what I am talking about, please read the book "A new Kind of Science"
     
  16. Rick Valued Senior Member

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    Km,
    I"ll check up with the book you just mentioned.However,my points were simply these :
    • We might get the Seed or Root DNA or base,and start modelling,but what about the variants in space or for that matter sudden variations like Meteor strike on Planet earth etc?,Our prediction of life even with Seed DNA would be nullified.Quite simply,it is extremely difficult to predict an accurate path of seed growth,even when you know how exactly it must grow.To illustrate my point further :

      Say for example,if say a Bacterial strain Grows with a charaterstic say,a red coat,now mix this with a Bacterial strain having blue coat.We know that probabilities of how many at max. will have blue coat,how may will have red coat,how many will have a mixture etc,how many will have no coats.But important point that we often tend to miss is subjective nature of these predictions.e.g in what kind of env. were these Bacteria growing...this might hence change their course of development altogether.Staying with my example,What if say under some controlled or limited radiations these strains change? then what will be the mixtures.All the different kinds of radiations may have to be taken into the account.

      Similiarly,here in case of the world in Digital form,you could start with a seed,but the kind of env. you provide will ultimately decide the growth of the Seed DNA or whatever you take as the base.So,you could ultimately never emulate the normal env. because you dont know All the possible changes that may or may not occur that are a function or may directly affect the growth of your seed.Starting with seed DNA is a great idea,but it would be much better if you already know that kinds of changes that could possibly take place(which is near impossible task,i can assume safely)
    As for my thoughts on sampling,i think i wasnt clear enough: I had implied that sampling predictor values for prediction may not be enough,since with this method of prediction (as to what Seed DNA will ultimately become,when ENV is given to him hypothetically emulating Normal as we see.) we dont know how our env has changed or we dont know (yet) as to how our env changes wrt time.Untill we know that,we cannot emulate a perfect world.

    just some thoughts...

    bye!
     
  17. eburacum45 Valued Senior Member

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    There will eventually be millions of emulated worlds; they will all be different. However it will be impossible to make an emulated world that is the same as the real world because of Heisenburg's uncertainty Theory; it is not possible to know enough data about particles in the real world to predict their future states.

    So the millions of virtual worlds will all be different, and they will all be real (for certain values of real).
     
  18. kmguru Staff Member

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    The very fact that the house is where you left it in the morning and went to school or work would remain in the same place when you comeback in the evening says - the difference would be minimal. Yes, the leaves would fall, the cat dragged a mouse etc...but where it counts...the difference would be minimal even sometimes 30 years hence...

    I bought and sold a house 30 years ago in Midland, Texas. The house today looks the same, even though the trees all grown up and there are new bushes by the other ownwers. But the rooms are where we left it....

    It is all about context and degree....
     
  19. kmguru Staff Member

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    zion, soon you will be going to the business world. As you know, businesses these days have standardized processes. That is why there are only two major ERP packages out there. By probability theory, all businesses should be at almost equal risk due to very low differential in all variables (standards, laws, habits, numbers and so on)

    But some companies succeed where as majority fail. But companies hire people based on standard commodity prices. The key differential is the seed DNA of one or two people. That uniqueness forces the uncertainity to certainity. In case of Microsoft, it is Bill Gates.

    Yes, a Meteor strike would upset the development of that seed - same way as if someone comes up with a Linux based system that works like Apple OS or even better, if someone can come up with the next generation software where you do not have to reboot everytime you add a new software or tell you at root level if someone is trying to get into your computer (that is the computer should be smart enough to know your work habits like they watch your use of credit cards). But it has not happened yet...Microsoft is still the monopoly. (Same with Wal-Mart)

    It is true that if external factors are minimal, you have a seed that works in any location. (a seed of a plant in nature is designed for just that - there is an extremely high probability that the seed a tree produces would provide a similar tree under a minimal variation). A tree does not say, wait a minute, I am going to lose the sun for the next 10 years, what I am going to do?

    The same goes true for the planet too. The planet does not say, I am going to have constant meteor strike and hence can not produce life. Same for the Universe.

    The point is, the very fact that seeds exist for the future, says, we can use seed DNA that would work during our life time. The Universe is not as random as you may like to think - Heisenberg not withstanding.....

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  20. kmguru Staff Member

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    Know your Heisenberg

    Heisenberg principle:

    "The simultaneous measurement of two conjugate variables (such as the momentum and position or the energy and time for a moving particle) entails a limitation on the precision (standard deviation) of each measurement. Namely: the more precise the measurement of position, the more imprecise the measurement of momentum, and vice versa. In the most extreme case, absolute precision of one variable would entail absolute imprecision regarding the other. "

    This only works with - you guessed it, conjugate variables at particle level. Macro world is a whole different place.
     
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