Life inside a Computer

Discussion in 'Intelligence & Machines' started by kmguru, Sep 8, 2001.

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  1. kmguru Staff Member

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    In the near future, I am going to have a voice interface. Forward looking, I am not sure what kind of interface will be needed to download at a faster rate. The five senses wont work. We need a direct signal injection to the brain (wireless ofcourse). Any ideas? I could start working on that.
     
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  3. Rick Valued Senior Member

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    Hi

    Outputs and inputs speed of the brain are drastically reduced due to voice output and ears and eyes as input.direct brain inputs and outputs for transmission is what will be required in the near future.cortex is perfect i suppose for this.i have heard that cerebral cortex is what interprets and transmits signal a kind of decoder.

    bye!
     
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  5. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    Kmguru,

    Your speaking of a Tantelising subject Mneumonics.

    Admittedly there are many playing with Cybernetics in varying research institutes and Universities. The Information that has been outputted over their acheivements usually concerns Watching a computer screen and moving a cursor, Of course these are very simplified explainations designed to allow people of a young age to get an understanding and feel of what the future might hold.

    This doesn't mean of course that the capacity and research is that undernourished (although it might be made to feel so, to gain extra funding... as we all like toys!)

    From what I understand, monitoring Brain signals through a Cap (with sensors for picking up electromagnetics) is one method of obtaining some interaction with a person. (Of course they would have to be looking at a visual input, for the signals to be deciphered)

    It is possible in using Dopplers of a low level, but and extended usage can cause certain radiation drawbacks, like blocking the Short-term memory from storing long-term information.

    In recent tests it's proven that a person can't even work out what day it is, due to this draw back. (there are also concerns that the radiation has an effect on the genetic structuring of the individual, of course the guinea pig concerned is using a far different system involving "Surround Matrix Mechanics")

    There are methods of invoking higher electromagnetic fields from the brain, by using such devices as implants but they too suffer drawbacks (Like their conductivity through microwaves runs at a high enough temperature to cause heat damage to the surrounding tissue.)

    There is also the possibility that the increase in radiation can cause the tissue to become Photo-sensitive, and possibly trigger Epilepsy in people that originally didn't suffer, or suffer to such a degree.

    There are many other points too, for instance you might store information or a memory outside of your being, but what if your information is tampered with and forced back into you. You'll find yourself subjected to false memories. (Of course these are Super-Criminal Worse Case Scenarios)
     
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  7. Rick Valued Senior Member

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    HULLLOO??

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    did i ask anything stupid??

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    bye!
     
  8. Rick Valued Senior Member

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    A thought...

    in the near future say this system becomes a reality,all Kms,Zions,Stryders etc etc are uploaded inside.we can have wars within it and make earth a better place to live in.a soldier will just have to upload himself to the computer and fight the war (just like a game thing).off course that would require non-destructive method of uploading humans inside...

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    bye!
     
  9. Rick Valued Senior Member

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    Another thought KM,


    if say your scanned brain part is uploaded to this world where its all perfect...no one dies...etc etc will brain accept this fact?the idea of perfect isnt just acceptable to our species.

    to quote from "THE MATRIX"

    A.SMITH:"SO YOUR PRIMITIVE CEREBRUM KEPT TRYING TO WAKE UP FROM THE DREAM,WHICH IS WHY THE MATRIX WAS REDISIGNED TO THIS,THE PEAK OF YOUR CIVILIZATION..."

    bye!

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  10. Imahamster Registered Senior Member

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    Zion, this hamster doesn’t find your interest in IO bandwidth stupid.

    As a hamster I hear, see, taste, and smell fine. Don’t really need more IO bandwidth. My little brain couldn’t deal with more. Already I ignore most of my sensory information and pay attention to only the most important. As I try to understand human ideas I tend to shut out all my external senses. I’m more interested in better understanding the information I’m already getting than in increasing the rate of the information flow.

    I’ve sniffed several possibilities. Perhaps I could grow a bigger brain, maybe even as big as a human’s. (Might have to drag it behind me in my hamster ball.) Or maybe my own brain could function better with some tinkering of nutrients, growth factors, or stem cells. Might have to rewire major sections. (What changes would be required for me to think big human thoughts?)

    Maybe my little hamster brain doesn’t have to do all my thinking? Could I delegate some of the work? Surely some problems are better solved with circuits than with my neurons. If I ask and the answer immediately returns is it the same as my knowing? If nerves and circuits could be integrated with my brain then I might be able to store and recall words and facts instantly. Might understand more complex ideas. Transcend the limits of my hamsterness. What tasty seeds I might discover.

    Zion there are so many possibilities and so little me that I tend to focus on my own interests. No slight was intended.
     
  11. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    Zion
    If such an "International Mainframe" was brought into creation, I wouldn't want to add war to it. There would be enough waring to keep hackers at bay, think rather than trying to implace a code into a box and get it accepted, you just know it would be accepted and so it is. A kind of NEO picklock, with Bending a spoon all rolled into one.

    Of course just mentioning hackers in such systems should bring up the Cyberpunk Genre's "BLACKICE". Now I'm not talking about that firewall, I'm talking about the Hackers that in fiction start using techniques of turning up dopplers to give people "a personalised form of Cancer" (Burning Chrome - William Gibson), namely they kill you while your interfacing (or HACKING).

    Of course this is where Gibson then utilised a method of "CONSTRUCTS", Flash-ROMs that hold a "dead" persons personality and that could be inplanted or just hooked to an individual to act as a Purposely created extra personality, with all their experitise at hand.

    You'll notice this if you ever read Neuromancer, when Case interfaces with DIXIES FLATLINE (The construct of a Hacker that died to Corporate Blackice but got his Personality captured in the matrix.)

    This pretty much concludes that any system like this shouldn't be for war. If you want to do that, then you would have to have a "ZONE" for doing that in to keep the system from destroying itself. (Namely a PK[Player Killer] ZONE).

    As for IamHamster, The usage of a system that has the capacity to manipulate DATA and programmed integrals means you could infact CLONE YOURSELF Virtually, Image getting a multitude of yourselves and sending them out to do different tasks and learn different things, then managed to get them all to communicate back to one that calls himself the processor, This would mean that your Processor would be like a GURU, A master of one, but a parallel processing army of infinity.

    Virtually a Rodent brain could be constituted in size by a Holographically represented manipulation, Namely UP-SCALING your brain, to DOWNSCALE the area that information takes up.
     
  12. Imahamster Registered Senior Member

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    Stryder,

    Agents are an interesting means of delegating “thought” work. But should an agent be an Imahamster copy? Most agents would be doing grunt work. If Imahamster don’t wanna do it why should an Imahamster copy? Centralized command and communications has drawbacks. (And if the agents were copies of Imahamster they would have BIG issues with accepting orders and reporting results.)

    Having Imahamster copies might help with the “self recognition” problem. If hub and agents are all Imahamster copies then we’d presumably all know we were part of the same entity and what any agent knew the central Imahamster would also know. That might not be so clear with non-Imahamster agents.

    Even with copies the central Imahamster might not view the agents as “self”. The agents would develop unique memories. If the agents were adaptive they’d develop unique capabilities. Delayed, varying, or lost communication between central and agent Imahamster might contribute to the central Imahamster feeling the agent was not part of “self” and what the agent “knew” was not what the central Imahamster knew. (Imahamster asked our local authority /777 for its views. No reply.)

    This cyber hive seems less capable than a human corporation. (Though a lot cheaper.) Humans have different abilities and employ diverse strategies. A thousand diverse humans solve problems better than a thousand Einstein clones. (Did Einstein know anything about plumbing?)

    Could a thousand hamsters understand human thoughts any more successfully than a single hamster?

    Stryider wrote:
    “Virtually a Rodent brain could be constituted in size by a Holographically represented manipulation, Namely UP-SCALING your brain, to DOWNSCALE the area that information takes up.”

    Essentially the same as growing a larger brain? (Assuming intelligence scales with size.)

    Thanks for chattering with Imahamster.
     
  13. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    Imahamster

    a cloneing process is simple, First the thought:

    I'm going to clone, I will be the control processor and all those that are below me will be agents. I have full command, and any clones of this thought will make it so, as they have their own eventual objectives.

    Your original then clones once, the clone appears in designated RAM and the original is still in its own RAM, The original Assigns itself a number "1" and tells the clone you are "2", between the two they name "10".

    "2-10" are the register accountants (Co-processors) and "1" is the main processor, they now assign a group of 9 to each (A bit like a pyramid scheme, but using processor, co-processor like foreman.)

    The foreman get the orders for the clones beneath them from "1", each job is different from each other, and "1" knows what they wouldn't mind learning if they ever got the change.
    This means that all agents are happy to learn their individual skills, infact if the agents after they have learn as much of that information have got some spare time, they might be able to ask the other agents for information upon the tasks that they too would like to have learnt.

    Since each agent would have a simplified way of explaining to itself the information its learnt rather than having to spew out the whole, it's possible for a whole cloned hive to become capable of doing many Knowledgable things.

    (Of course with each interchange of information there would still be the possibility for polymorphic whispers, but the agents should still be able to go to an archives source if they find that their two versions of doing something don't collaberate.)

    "Go forth and multiply"

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  14. Imahamster Registered Senior Member

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    Stryder,
    The Intel Personal Super computer in the mid eighties used such a strategy. Hypercube architecture with 64 nodes. (Very powerful for its time but less than a Palm Pilot.) A 286 based PC acted as the master scheduling node. All other nodes had their own copy of identical software. The software ran differently on each node by querying for the Node ID as it ran.

    Several “BlackBoard” AI systems used cooperating sub-agents. These agents weren’t identical. Specialized agents were used for specialized tasks. Several “speech understanding” systems were built using this architecture.

    As long as the problem is simple, e.g. a web search or processing a piece of SETI data, this works. However for less structured problems these systems have been remarkably unsuccessfully. Likely because the agents just weren’t sufficiently smart. Couldn’t transfer their problem solving skill from one domain to another. (Where’s /777 when ya need it?)

    Stryder wrote:
    “Since each agent would have a simplified way of explaining to itself the information its learnt rather than having to spew out the whole”

    Restructuring general information in smart ways might be the crux of having a smart agent. Tough problem.

    A cloned hive would have many capabilities much as a human army is more capable than a single soldier. This hamster still wonders if such a hive would have a “self” that knows what it knows and if such a hive would be significantly more intelligent than it’s components. Useful tool but maybe not the next step in this hamster’s evolution.
     
  15. Rick Valued Senior Member

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    The Mainframe i mentioned would be useful in sevral ways as i mentioned in thread called cars by Stryder.
    idea:
    ==============================================
    there is a Supermainframe somewhere,(also the Master mainframe),and all teh other countries have their own mainframe connected to it.all the people all uploaded to that computer in the following way:
    the program is loaded in their memory and refreshed every time a new person is uploaded inside the system...if he is nearby that man of course inside the system.the system has rules accordingly.all teh people thus remain in their dream state(matrix style)the dream state is done like this:

    the Sub-Mainframe(Local or country Mainframe) makes a point to Point connection with the Human to be uploaded inside it.the the connection is made by boring a small cavity inside or nearby cortex to enable it to understand the electrical signal generated from the program,then the pattern of signal once understood is loaded inside the temporary memory.the program (The virtual world that is)will be designed to make the whole thing interconnected,as if we are in world itself.

    now suppose we want to visit say South Africa all we have to do is tell the real world administrator about the position and then it will download us once again to the real world and then upload us once again to south africa mainframe...or directly transfer us to South Mainframe.the transportation will be Fast,very Fast...

    bye!
     
  16. Rick Valued Senior Member

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    Most uploading proposals assume that the detailed morpholgy of neural tissue will need to be determined as an integral part of the procedure. No current technology(Mind it NO CURRENT)can achieve both the resolution and sample size needed for the task. it is necessary to have good depth resolution as well. A scanner with a very narrow depth of field can effectively "section" a sample into slices optically rather than physically.
    Electron microscopy (EM) offers adequate resolution, though the samples must be both small and very thin. Work is underway to increase these bounds, using high-voltage EM to increase sample penetration, tomography or optical sectioning to make effective use of greater thickness, and mosaics to increase the imaged area. These developments are well justified.

    Magnetic resonance imaging (MRI, also called Nuclear Magnetic Resonance) can achieve roughly 1 mm resolution in an intact human brain -- a valuable achievement for neuroscience and medicine, but orders of magnitude lower than the resolution that uploading requires. The resolution of MRI is determined mostly by the steepness of a magnetic field gradient which is generated in the sample; when extended across the breadth of the head, sufficiently steep gradients appear impossible. However, much steeper gradients can be achieved over short distances; researchers routinely obtain 0.05 mm resolution in live rats. It may be that a properly built scanner could achive the desired resolution in brain slices which would be thin compared to normal MRI fare, but still large compared to EM slices. For example, the ability to image 1 mm slices with 10 nm resolution would surpass EM by several orders of magnitude. If this thickness could be increased to several millimeters, and the area extended to 0.01 m^2, then processing the brain tissue would become relatively straightforward.

    Other techniques have various drawbacks. Light microscopy is limited by the wavelength of light to a resolution which is probably insufficient for uploading. Acoustic imaging suffers worse resolution still.

    so we can see that technology is still not advanced enough for Non-destructive Mind Uploads...work is still underway...

    Enviornments for Uploaded people:societies,Issues.
    ==============================================
    The society inside the Computers will be an important aspect.questions as to wether duplication should be permitted or not also holds ground for some discussion.As we see in case of an accident like a technician shutting a PC down while for repairs,etc.then we would require extra copies of us,but if this duplication is used without any accidents etc then it"ll lead to virii like chaos and activity.Artificial realities present a host of policy issues. First, will citizenship (or even the rights of humans) be granted to those living in a computer simulation, with no physical bodies? It seems obvious that it should, but it will be a big step for governments to take.
    Another possibility is that the government may actually require some patients to enter an artificial reality under some circumstances. For example, patients who cannot afford the uploading procedure may be uploaded by the government into artificial realities, which will no doubt be cheaper on the large scale than manufactured bodies. Another possibility would be to upload convicted criminals into a "prison box" -- an artificial reality safely insulated from the rest of society.

    Finally, artificial reality pose a real threat of abuse. A programmer of such a system would have nearly godlike power over its inhabitants, and "god syndromes" would be a chilling possibility. To prevent the abuse of uploaded people, careful safeguards will have to be put into place.

    Artificial realities would probably come in varying degrees of realism -- to duplicate the patient's familiar world, you'd have to calculate wind currents, light reflections, gravity,Thrusts, friction, and so on, as well as the effect all of these have on the senses. Then you'd have to interpret activity in the motor neurons of the simulated nervous system, to update the patient's simulated body position. These will be difficult, and will never perfectly match the real world, but it is reasonable to suppose that algorithmic shortcuts will be found which generate results that are "good enough". Artificial reality would have the advantage of being able to shape the laws of physics to the programmer's whim, allowing, for example, magic spells or anti-gravity devices. However, there would be a risk of people getting addicted to direct brain stimulation, or simply getting lost in some virtual game and losing touch with reality.

    Or may be another solution could be to build a mechanical body which carries the brain simulator around, just as our bodies carry around our brains now. The body would need to duplicate the senses and motor functions of a real human body if we want to minimize the patient's adjustment. Artificial bodies would no doubt be crude at first, with numbed senses and clumsy muscles, but if demand is high, technology is sure to improve. a properly designed body may still allow for the act of eating, for the pleasure of it. The same goes for other bodily functions (e.g., sex) -- if there is demand for it, then artificial (or simulated) bodies will no doubt be capable of it.

    But there is a problem with uploads.and that goes like this:
    ==============================================
    will the brain scanned inside be ready for a perfect world?will the upload not become unstable insuch a world? will No-death scenarios induce some evolution inside the Matrix so as to adjust accordingly?

    Brain Enhancing:Another ethical part
    ==============================================once Inside this Matrix,there will be certainly a kind of ethical issue raised on brain enhancements,like deleting or altering a data for the stability of the system and the whole programs.

    the issue will certainly hold a lot of debate,as it"ll be like changing a man's percpective(!change almost the soul,if there's one).

    God-syndrome:
    ==============================================
    The programmers of such a syndrome will feel like God!!.they have acces to virtually everything.once equipped with great knowledge of brain they"ll able to make or emulate a God like brain to produce significant results inside their own systems.such a thing will be dangerous as they"ll be using their own names to emulate such brains inside the computer to carry on and finish the task assigned to them.these special programmes created will be known as Gods inside those systems(!!Amazing!!).
    Such a thing is dangerous as We dont and are not emotionally stable to handle such responsibility.our emotional levels are just not configured to be so neuutral and stop being or responding emotionally in case of a crisis inside the system.

    And in such a case it"ll lead to a complete loss of million of "lives" inside.

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    although i have little knowledge or practically none to describe exact part of uploading proceedures and consequences of it,but for an amateur yes i know a lot,still rectifications,clarifying may and is most warmly welcomed...

    bye!
     
  17. kmguru Staff Member

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    I think, some of your concerns have been addressed in previous posts here and other topics. Please review and redo your concerns.
     
  18. Rick Valued Senior Member

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    God syndrome......??

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    bye!
     
  19. kmguru Staff Member

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    Nay...

    Even though we can create the virtual environment, everyone will have the same capabilities and vote to have the capabilities turned on. For example, inside the virtual world, if every one decide to move objects with their minds, then it will be setup that way.

    The personality will have a backup system outside the VW and governed by rules and ethics such that personalities are not abused. and so on...

    I do not think God sysndrome is an issue.
     
  20. whatsherface imaginary entity Registered Senior Member

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  21. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    The main concern I have is the point that a virtual world that is mapped (rendered) from information recieved through our world being "scanned" can have a reversal effect of control.

    For instance, we would look at the world we exist in as being the model for another, remove the people and you have the fixtures, the objects that would live in a virtual world.

    Since our planet (the one we exist in now) would and is bombarded by frequencies with a number of scans, it's possible for those frequencies to react with our reality.

    This means you might put a program in a virtual simulation to float and object with nothing but your thought of floating it, and in reality the computer super-organised body could calculate how to make the same feat possible through dopplers.

    This of course would mean that you haven't just cloned our world, you've developed a tool to manipulate matter (well in the form of EM buffering).
     
  22. Imahamster Registered Senior Member

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    WhatsHerFace, good seed. Lots of chewing. Thanks.
     
  23. scilosopher Registered Senior Member

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    I didn't read the mind uploading page, but I got through everything else.

    I believe I didn't see anything about privacy issues. People could know all your thoughts. Maybe people would want this and program in telepathy maybe not.

    I think that many issues abound over rules and details that are very easy to sweep under the rug, but our governments don't work now. It isn't clear that technology is helping to clear up this problem. So it makes sense to think things won't necessarily work well then. Imagine people uploading you for easier torture. Making copies with certain memories erased to just trick you into giving up info. Then again I guess you wouldn't have to bother because you could extract them directly.

    Technology simply empowers. Technological utopias are not such a great idea as the technology simply empowers and it isn't clear that people will make proper use of it.

    Interesting ideas though. I've always wondered how an idea hurts so much ... that's all pain is. Or how an idea can be so red.

    I also thought the point about the difficulty of the simulation was very warranted. What if part of us is in quantum mechanics. Imagine having to simulate every particle/wave in every molecule in the body to have things work right. Even if we can make a copy that seems pretty close, how do you know you didn't miss something? Would the copy know enough to be uncomfortable with the difference. What if when you were testing the techniques things didn't work quite right and you created a simulation of a person in a very painful predicament (I've always wondered if we need to simulate enough about a person to really nail medical simulations that it's just as bad as working on a living human).

    Just some thoughts ... but the social problems of the capability are huge and would take forever to work out. And the technical implementation would be treading on some pretty dangerous territory ethically. Imahamsters indivual evolution thing does point to a quasi believable route, but there you become very different from who you are now. Maybe worse maybe better (definitely a better calculator, but that isn't necessarily what I want to be).
     
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