Life has purposes?

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Saint, Aug 28, 2012.

  1. Mazulu Banned Banned

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    Your point is baseless and irrational. The golden rule is a good rule to live by and to teach others to live by.
     
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  3. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    nevermind
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2013
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  5. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Why am I not surprised that his point when flying over your head?
     
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  7. Mazulu Banned Banned

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    It sounded like he was arguing that basic goodness is futile and too difficult to be actionable. I wouldn't let someone into my house if they didn't have a basic understanding of the golden rule. It's not complicated. Even people who participate in BSDM are careful not to accidentally hurt or choke the other person (while they're tying them up).

    Also, his argument that believing in an afterlife is bad because one or two psychos might kill their children IS STUPID!!! People who believe in the afterlife are more concerned about the consequences of their actions, of their character flaws. The existence of one or two psychos who act abnormally anyway is irrelevant to his point.

    This should be common sense. It's as if intelligent people have no common sense.
     
  8. Saturnine Pariah Hell is other people Valued Senior Member

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    An obsession with the afterlife simply shows an inability to cope with their current lives.
    [video=youtube;eeMoOJpvUlU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeMoOJpvUlU[/video]
     
  9. Balerion Banned Banned

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    That wasn't his point at all. He was refuting your claim that belief in an afterlife can be a strong motivator to behave morally by showing how immoral actions tend to occur in the name of qualifying for the afterlife.

    The likelihood is that you wouldn't have any idea if they agreed with the notion or not. Psychopaths--people who actively take pleasure in hurting others--often do a good job of acting "normal" when among others. But again, this is a tangent entirely unrelated to spider's point. And remember, the Golden Rule only postulates that one treats others as they would hope to be treated by others. Without context, that could mean anything. The firebrand Christian fundamentalist might take that to mean he should kill that faggot because he'd want someone to kill him if he were a faggot. Understand? The Golden Rule is only "good" when it is contextualized by good morals.

    Speaking from experience? I'll defer to your expertise, then, but that isn't a good example of anything. BDSM is a kink, not a philosophy on how to treat other humans.

    But it isn't just two people. Look at the hatred towards and oppression of homosexuals in the west. Look at honor killings in the middle east. That's all done in the name of the afterlife. The point is, having God on your side makes any atrocity an act of kindness or mercy. Otherwise good people have done abhorrent things because they believe it's what God wants them to do, and that it will get them a ticket to heaven. That's what you need to understand.

    It's far more likely that you just don't know what the hell you're talking about.
     
  10. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    "Kill them all. For the Lord knows them that are His."
    Arnaud Amalric


    I don't think goodness is futile, I just don't think it can be codified. And I don't think belief in an afterlife leads to morality. It certainly isn't rational. It can make people not care about this life because they are focused on the next one.

    "How do you know you're not already dead, and this is the afterlife?"
    William S. Burroughs
     
  11. Mazulu Banned Banned

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    Utter nonsense. Billions of people around the world believe in an afterlife. Most of them function just fine. It's the scientific community that is too spiritually blind to it.
     
  12. Mazulu Banned Banned

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    The happiest moments of my life were when I was irrational. Laughing, giggling, watching in awe, gazing in wonder at the universe, at God, at what was possible. Reason is useful, but it's over-rated.
     
  13. Mazulu Banned Banned

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    It's really a trivial point. Belief (awareness?) of an afterlife adds value to my life. It brings me great joy. The fact that scientists can't prove its existence is really just a limitation for science. It is folly to wait for science to prove that the afterlife exists. It's right under your noses, but is also beyond the standard model.

    You villify Christianity too much. Don't get me wrong, I've defended the rights of gays/lesbians. I've even prayed to the Creator (yelled really loudly :lol) that such Christian teachings were unfair. In spite of whatever problems there have been, Christianity has provided a good strong belief system for the masses to embrace. Teachings of Christ are good bread and butter beliefs that provide a context for people's lives, a magnificient culture, and a strong western civilization. Civilizations where Christianity did not thrive, didn't do so well. The Middle East (Islam) is a dangerous and extremely violent part of the world. China is a dictatorship that oppresses its people to varying degrees. They kill babies who were born female instead of male. That's what anti-Christianity gets you.
     
  14. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    That's not what I would call irrational.
     
  15. Mazulu Banned Banned

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    An afterlife exists. But proving it is incredibly difficult if not impossible. We are souls that have bodies. So the question becomes: how does the soul interface with the body? With the nervous system and brain. The atheist scientific community of course dismisses all such explorations as being irrational.

    In the vain attempt to try to answer this question, I will explain what I think is the mechanism. Nobody really knows what the soul is (what it's made of). However, in order to interface with the nervous system (the physical universe), it has to be able to generate and to be receptive to electromagnetic fields (in some way). I think the quantum mechanics wave-function (mathematics) describes a naturally occuring field (a spirit field). That would be where the spirit interconnects with the physical world.
     
  16. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    Unfortunately I would have to agree with you. But I would like to modify your statement in that the people are not really obsessed, but more or less hopeful and use it as faith to live on currently, so they do cope just fine. Plus if you are a Buddhist like me, you know that lives are cycles and a previous life impacts the future life.
     
  17. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    What proved the existence of a soul to you?
     
  18. Balerion Banned Banned

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    For one, it's belief, not awareness. All evidence available suggests that consciousness is linked to the physical brain, so expecting there to be consciousness beyond the death of the brain is irrational, but most importantly, unlikely and impossible to prove.

    Of course, whether or not this delusion brings you joy isn't what we're discussing. We're discussing what such an expectation makes people do. You claimed it made people behave better; spider and I both said it does not. The evidence is on our side.

    Then by all means, explain how it is you came to believe. If it's right there for us all to see, why wouldn't you let us all know?

    I give Christianity its due. Its fear and hatred of homosexuals is just one of many ills found within the pages of its foundational text. You remain blind to its injustices because, like most loudmouth believers, you don't actually know anything about the faith. You know none of its history, you've clearly never read the bible beyond the verses fed to you at mass, and as such your view of Christianity is skewed.

    Yeah, who cares if most of its growth came at the end of a sword, or if at various times throughout history being anything other than a Christian meant painful death or indefinite imprisonment? Who cares if being a woman in Christianity made you a second-class citizen? So what if the essence of Christianity is self-flagellation and the belief that we are all ultimately dirt and unworthy of the love we're supposed to be constantly seeking from our creator?

    Christianity has done a fine job at holding back civilization, I'll give it that. Thanks for keeping us from becoming everything we could be, Christianity!

    The teachings of Christ are only less than sinister when they are given the context of our modern secular values. Even CS Lewis, the author of the Narnia books and famed Christian apologist, said that Christ's teachings would be wicked if they came from anyone other than the son of God, meaning that when read in their intended context the words are truly vile. Leaving your family behind, giving no care for the morrow, making love compulsory--even for one's enemies--are irresponsible at best, and cruel at worst.

    Sure, taken out of context, some of his words can make sense today, but you don't apply them as he would have. He also didn't believe that freedom was an inalienable right for every person. He never went to bat for the slaves that were literally all over the place in his world,. Remember the woman he refused to help because she was a Canaanite? He flat-out ignored her pleas for help, saying to his disciples, basically, "I'm not here for her." It was only after she threw herself down and worshipped him that he relented. You call that good teaching? Wait, you wouldn't call that anything, since you weren't even aware of it until just now.

    No, that's what rampant poverty and apocalyptic religions get you. You think there aren't any Christians in the Middle East toting guns and killing people?

    At any rate, the reason the west thrives today is precisely because it has broken the shackles of Christianity. A Christian west burned witches at the stake and refused to teach evolutionary biology to children; a secular west doesn't believe in witches and promotes education regardless of what it means to one's faith. The equality you see around you today isn't a Christian value, and isn't the result of Christian teachings, but instead the result of Christianity's loss of influence.

    You know where you see Christianity today in the west? You see it when people try to block gay marriage equality, and the construction of a Muslim community center in Manhattan. Oh, and the attempt to oppress women by taking away their reproductive rights. That's what Christianity gets you.
     
  19. Balerion Banned Banned

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    It's impossible to prove, yet you're aware of its existence?

    How convenient.

    Now you're just repeating the bullshit you read from other posters here. "Atheist scientific community?" What is that, exactly? And since when is the study of consciousness "irrational?"

    So, basically, you'll just pull stuff out of your ass and hope some people here are stupid enough to believe it.
     
  20. Mazulu Banned Banned

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    I might be obsessed by the after-life. But I cope just fine. I have many blessings: a good job, a beautiful fiance, a mortgage, friends. It just bothers me (bothered me, past tense now) that it all comes to an abrupt end when we die. Doesn't it bother any of you? You're all gonna die (hopefully after a long fulfilling life).

    I have a pretty good idea of what happens when the physical body dies. Our existence goes on as a spirit, as a quantum lifeform. Quantum lifeforms would sure explain the existence of ghosts. Anyway, I assume you're all pretty closeminded about this stuff, so I'll be on my way.
     
  21. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Of course it's shitty that we just go away at the end of life. But that doesn't mean we must invent some fantasy realm where we can all live on forever just to cope with it.

    Life is temporary. We need to die so our children can thrive. In a selfish way, that's not fair, but it works in the grand scheme. Food and shelter are not limitless, and our continued existence would make it impossible to carry on our genetic code to new generations. Sure, an afterlife where none of that is required sounds lovely, but it also sounds like make-believe. And there's no evidence to suggest it exists.

    Right, so, make the claims, fail to support them when questioned, and bail out. How typical of the weak-minded. Go and have your childish fantasy elsewhere, then.
     
  22. Mazulu Banned Banned

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    Nope. In the physics description of the universe, it would be a quantum life form. When the body dies, the spirit lives on, cynicism notwithstanding.
    There is plenty of evidence.
    Sure I wish there was absolute proof of an afterlife. It is what it is. Life is too short to perpetuate cynicism. You go on with your cynical point of view. You can call it having a "strong-mind", but I think it handicaps you. In reality, it doesn't make you strong. It makes you negative. It makes you angry. It serves no useful purpose.
     
  23. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Word salad. You couldn't explain what either "the physics description of the universe" meant, or what a "quantum life form" is. It's just fantasy you've created to help you sleep at night.

    There is no spirit to live on, childish gullibility notwithstanding.

    Then where is it? Show me any evidence at all.

    I'm neither negative or angry. I'm a realist, or at least as much of a realist as a human can be. I'm happy, I'm funny, I have friends and loved ones. I enjoy life; I'm not bogged down by fears of what happens when we die, and I don't need to insult my own intelligence by pretending to believe in something that I know to be a childish fantasy.
     

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