Life from non-life?

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by shichimenshyo, Jan 23, 2008.

  1. Enmos Staff Member

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    Who's will ?
    And things do "just happen".

    Are stones aware of themselves ?

    You mean matter is all there is.
    I'm aware if this 'nothing'-theory, it says matter is made up of bubbles of nothing.. it's controversial at best.
    But at least we agree that everything is made from matter, including life.
     
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  3. draqon Banned Banned

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    rocks exist, yet they are not alive. Yet by your definition since rocks exist, than they are alive. What state are rocks than? Rocks don't exist?
     
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  5. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Emnos
    erm - the only problem is that there is a complete lack of evidence of life ever demonstrably arising from inanimate matter .... the need for a godless universe continues
     
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  7. fadingCaptain are you a robot? Valued Senior Member

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    We have artificially created amino acids and other basic building blocks for life in the lab I believe. Throw these in vast quantities on a young earth and let bake for a billion or two years. Seems reasonable that the highly unlikely eventually did occur.

    On the other hand, the scifi fan in me likes to think life was seeded here by ancient ultra-intelligent aliens. That of course just pushes the question back further - from whence did they come?
     
  8. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    my understanding is that all forms of life are conscious - ie they all exhibit some sort of will.
    hence talking of conscious life is akin to talking of a burning fire

    that consciousness is a contingent property of life, much like burning is a contingent property of fire.

    Its kind of like a simultaneously monistic and dualistic issue.
    Practically there is no question of separating the property from the said object (like say a fire that doesn't burn - aka monism), yet you can still talk separately of the burning qualities of fire (aka dualism).

    In the same way, there is no practical means of indicating consciousness from life, yet consciousness can be discussed of separately in terms of thinking, feeling and willing.

    what on earth makes you think I am saying that?
    (what would distinguish a dead rock from a living rock?)
     
  9. draqon Banned Banned

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    we are referring to Stanely Miller's experiment here...

    Diagram of Stanley Miller's experiment

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    vs.

    Distribution of gas in the visible universe at redshift 3, image made by: www.ncsa.edu

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  10. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    There is a big difference between life and the chemicals that life utilizes
    synthesizing amino acids is the same catagory as synthesizing urea

    In the absence of anything demonstrative, it's not clear how your first paragraph also doesn't owe it's credence to the sci-fi fan within you
     
  11. Enmos Staff Member

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    There is a complete lack of evidence for God.. that tells you what ?
    It tells you that life arose from something other that God. Understand ?
    That only leaves inanimate matter, unless you have some other proposal..
     
  12. draqon Banned Banned

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    there is no evidence for existence of God as there is no evidence for lack of existence of God
     
  13. Enmos Staff Member

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    Where does this consciousness come from if not created by the brain ?
    And are you sure you don't mean 'soul' when you speak of consciousness ?

    Perhaps it is me, but can you please explain the meaning of the word contingent ?

    All rests on your presumptions.. which I don't agree with.

    Explain how that works for plants and bacteria..

    Maybe not you, but Yorda certainly.
    No rock can ever be alive. The difference between a living organism and inanimate matter is the organization of the matter.
     
  14. Enmos Staff Member

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    Allow me..

    life
    –noun
    1. the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/life
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2008
  15. draqon Banned Banned

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    I only disagree with biological term of life, which defines it as having carbon in all the molecules of life...except like CO2.

    I feel like Silicon based life is just as possible...and than there are cybermachines with AI, are they not life? Were does life cease to be life?
     
  16. Enmos Staff Member

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    Please keep it simple, you don't want to go there yet lol
     
  17. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Your first premise has problems
    Actually your last premise seems a means to the ends of your first premise
     
  18. draqon Banned Banned

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    The question you should ask yourself is whether you wish to believe that God exists or that God does not exist. And decide yourself. There are no inconclusive statements for us, we mask it with reassurances but deep inside our subconsciousness we make a choice in favor or not.

    Do you wish God within yourself? Do you stand for what belief of God stands for?

    Do you not wish for God within yourself? Do you not believe in what God stands for?
     
  19. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Emnos
    one could explain consciousness as a symptom of the soul
    Hence issues of life, consciousness and the soul are inextricably connected

    contingent - Determined by conditions or circumstances that follow

    IOW the prerequisites for a phenomena
    eg - heat is a contingent property of fire means that there is no question of heat until one has a fire - the fire is the cause of the heat.

    it's actually a construct of logic
    a fire that doesn't burn is not a fire
    you don't agree with that?
    a living plant and bacteria exhibits a presence of will (even if its only the will for nourishment) in a way that a dead or afflicted plant or bacteria doesn't - Bose researched this extensively with plants
    I agree

    that is a partial definition.
    For it to be a complete one, you would have to demonstrate how life can be shown to arise by mere organization of inanimate matter
     
  20. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    If God actually does exist however, our wishing on the subject doesn't amount to much.
     
  21. Enmos Staff Member

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    Please explain ?
     
  22. draqon Banned Banned

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    that is irrelevant. Your consciousness clearly cannot be defined by anything of this world. Or do you deny of your consciousness as well? Your world is what you experience from your perspective, whether it is illusion or reality from our perspective, it is all reality to you and REAL to you when experienced by you. Beliefs of yours are the same, reality or not, they bear the same fruits.
     
  23. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    1. There's nothing demonstrative to evidence god (at least from your perspective)
    2. There's nothing demonstrative to evidence abiogenesis (from anyone's perspective)

    If you swing one way or the other (1 is true and 2 is false or 2 is true and 1 is false) it simply indicates your bias
     

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