Life abuses Entropy

Discussion in 'Chemistry' started by Bishadi, Sep 24, 2008.

  1. Bishadi Banned Banned

    An observance to the law and a reason life changes the perspective.

    The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (2LoT) is the basis of the idea of randomness or the equilibrium to chaos and this falls all the way into the ‘uncertainty principle,’ and even chemistry. This law is really a tough cookie and deeply intertwined within the accepted systems of logic. For example that law is about as well rooted as ‘creation’ is to certain theological interpretations. A tough cookie to bite into but you can herein take a peak for yourself.

    Here are 2 approaches to share the basic sense of the principle;

    1. Heat will not flow spontaneously from a cold object to a hot object
    2. Any system which is free of external influences becomes more disordered with time. This disorder can be expressed in terms of the quantity called entropy.

    The idea is that if a rock is hot it will get cold and that is how simple the sense is. Or what goes up must come down, again note the simplicity. Yet to observe living structures there are many examples of that ‘law’ appears to be broken. Life shares itself to continue beyond the confines of basic structures such as that rock. The first argument that can pretty much hold its own is to see that a rock is not quite what we consider a living thing. Another argument could be that a living structure will usually move to find warmth before getting too cold. And then finally the argument, ‘well eventually that life will die.’ That makes sense too but what if a life reproduces? What if it gives of its energy to support a complex living organism? Meaning its action actually supports a combined living institution of life that collectively is a unit life. Or if that life was to reproduce, than in a real physical sense that life is contributing mass and energy to continue its life and lineage; in a real sense, it is still alive. Such that if any branch of life was so bound to the laws, then how could evolution occur? We have all heard of the idea that life evolved from a little itty bitty single celled critter to an animal style living form. Well that would mean since the beginning of its evolutionary life, ‘it’ didn’t die or at least that life upon that mass, could not have died completely. The ‘life’ itself could not have died or that chain of life would be extinct.

    The use of this logic shares that the life of the mass must be the energy upon the mass. For example; when a mammal dies, same elemental structure sitting right there but the life of the mass is no longer there.

    So then to return back to that little one celled critter, it must reproduce to continue its existence, all the while consuming mass from its environment to make a sort of duplicate of themselves. They literally have to give up a portion of themselves to make the next generation. Well, so then a single celled egg or sperm is also a little itty bitty single celled life? And when that mass associates they combines to increase their total mass and energy for its life to grow and continue.

    With ‘life’ in mind, then look back at the 2LoT and then see if there is possibly a conflict involved. Meaning in chemistry often the idea is that the mass seeks its lowest construction and cools by law when in reality it seems life is usually doing the exact opposite. Rather than submitting to the environment but consumes and not only takes advantage and evolves within an environment, it appears often life will even change it. To observe this phenomenon see any city, see any beaver damn; mass changing its environment. Which to be of education comprehension it can be said: life abuses entropy.

    make sense?
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  3. Bishadi Banned Banned

    The simplicity of changing the observed parameters;

    Use the idea of a flat pond of water; tap the surface once and watch the wave roll from the point of impact. It seems as time passes the waves roll away from the initial imposition and look smaller than the original wave. So the body of water was settled and then upon one part of the surface an impact imposing energy began to roll through the medium. To start with, the ‘idea’ was the first cause but the real change is to realize at the initial impact the concentration of energy was focused to a point. As time continues the wave is now collecting more mass as it rolls through the body. One perspective may be the wave is getting smaller and losing energy or perhaps it is gaining more attrition of mass. In any case it was your choice to comprehend the event.

    The perspective becomes requisite to the observed imposition to substantiate the actual cause. Basically the choice of direction is relevant to the observer. By direction this means a choice is made of the individual opinion as to the action being judged whether progression is positive or negative according to the valuation of the perspective. In our pond the imposition could be termed a positive increase of the state of how many atoms can a tap on this flat pond affect. Can you also recognize how it continues for perhaps only a set time, in your thoughts, but to impose that action upon a physical pond, the reality is then that whatever impositions you impose to existence is there forever, even at the tinniest scale. This shares how the perspective is relevant.

    How this works is what is so important to understanding.
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  5. Nasor Valued Senior Member

    Life does not in any way violate the laws of thermodynamics; life obeys the laws of thermodynamics completely, just like everything else that has ever been observed in the universe. I realize that it might appear to you that life violates thermodynamics, but that's only because you don't really understand thermodynamics (no offense). You appear to be using a very fuzzy, low-level understanding of thermodynamics in general and the 2nd law in particular. Read about enthalpy and Gibbs free energy, and try to understand how a process that decreases entropy can happen spontaneously.
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  7. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

    True, Nasor. The percentage of living matter in the universe, or even just the solar system is tiny, and well offset by the increase in entropy all around it.
  8. Bishadi Banned Banned

    and that statement shares you don't read enough science to comprhend

    living structures live in this universe too

    and prove the simplicity of observance is the error...... of entropic systems

    offense taken.... as you point fingers without comprhending what is being suggested..... (the earth was flat once, and today the second law is being repealed based on further comprehension)

    Point being; you are old school complacent, welcome to reality!

    Know more about and read more experimental evidence in a month than most professors in a year....

    Gibbs is a patch. I.e.. the reason it is an isolated frame to cover d/t is because the current mechnics DON'T WORK.....

    that is what you have not understood..... patch work is not science!

    Going back to the base fundamentals are how to correct the errors.

    Be certain from Heisenberg to Schroadiger and Debroglie each frame has been observed and the error is how the 2LoT maintains a single direction at all times and anything added to cover a phenomenon is rude

    see the difference of scientific integrity and complacent idiots?

    the idiots just accept the patches and say O-key Dokey..... but have no idea what it means or how it applies.....

    meaning.... when you can comprehend what a theorem is and how they are used, then you may perhaps comprehend physics

    last point; either share evidence that is not neanderthal or step aside but don't question my integrity of material knowledge.....

    Life abuses entropy and the whole globe is starting to see why; the entangled environment is associated by energy (light).... that sir is your missing link!
  9. Bishadi Banned Banned


    read this publication and share with this forum what can cause a non-local affect

    what can change a property of mass to progress (evolve) in an equilibrium state?

    and if that math is too much, then look up the 'golden ratio' and share the reason for the progression....?

    if you want answers either ask questions or read more material otherwise your aging your intelligence with complacent acceptance...

    go religion; it suits that 'type' much better
  10. Nasor Valued Senior Member

    Bishadi, most of what you just wrote appears to be incoherent ranting. If your arguments are simply too advanced for me to understand because you are an exceptionally brilliant scientist who knows things about thermodynamics that they didn't teach me in any of my university courses, and for some reason you have decided to publish your breakthrough research on an internet message board (rather than, say, a serious science journal) then I wish you all the best in your research. On the other hand, if you are a nut who doesn't understand the basics of what you are trying to talk about, then I hope your craziness doesn't interfere with your life too badly, and I look forward to your insane explanation for why you have to publish on sciforums because none of the science journals appreciates your work. Either way, have a nice day.
  11. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

    The second law of thermodynamics is an expression of the universal law of increasing entropy, stating that the entropy of an isolated system which is not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium. [wikipedia]

    Life isn't an isolated system. The entropy of the universe still increases over time.
  12. Read-Only Valued Senior Member


    There are plenty of examples of local entropy-reversal. They are brought about by applying energy to the local system. Pumping water uphill is a common example; the ordinary heat pump which moves heat from a colder source to a warmer area is another.

    But take careful note that I said "local", which also implies that it is just temporary. Overall, entropy is a one-way street and cannot be overcome - no matter HOW much wishful thinking the nutters put into it.

    People like the OP say that all the rest of us are uneducated while it's they themselves that do not understand the very simple basics that they speak against.
  13. Lamont Cranston Registered Senior Member

    Quote from Bishadi:

    The earth was flat once, and today the second law is being repealed based on further comprehension

    Okay, you have my attention. Please explain these two statements.
  14. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

    Do you actually expect a clear, concise answer from him?

    It will take him 500 words or more just to say that the first is an indication of our ignorance in the distant past - and the second statement is supposed to indicate our ignorance today.

    But it's all still nonsense - because that's all he has.
  15. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

    Steve Kaufmann
  16. Lamont Cranston Registered Senior Member

    You may be right....but I'll give him a hearing, providing he can explain his statements in 4 sentences each. (If he can, I may have a chance of understanding what he's getting at, and be able to give a reasoned argued reply).
  17. darksidZz Valued Senior Member

    I once had this idea that you would eventually fail at anything you tried because statistically if you did it everyday of your life it just had to occur. Then I realized this was really not addressing the human personality and the fact it can adapt, etc. And so in theory it might be possible for someone to perform a task each day and be newly refreshed, thereby avoiding errors forever.

    I see there may be a possibility of entropy playing out differently, for example let's say an organism that doesn't die because the cells constantly renew and it basically regrows every so often. Then it would still experience entropy but because of it's nature not fail in relation to that. But then if you do view the whole of the universe and not a local event like that one I suppose it would still experience the universal entropy going on....

  18. Nasor Valued Senior Member

    Or something as simple as water freezing into ice on a cold day. Indeed, pretty much any time any material cools (let alone actually freezes) it will experience a decrease in entropy.

    But while it's certainly true that entropy can be decreased locally, I think it's also important for people to realize that the fuzzy "complexity" or "disorder" definitions of entropy that most people learn in highschool and then use casually are really just analogies, and you can't always use them to make predictions.

    For example a cat (which is mostly made of warm liquid) actually has a lot more entropy than a pile of salt crystals (which are highly ordered solids), and it would represent an increase in entropy for a pile of salt crystals to spontaneously turn themselves into a cat. Of course that isn't likely to ever happen, but it wouldn't violate the second law of thermodynamics if it did. People think of the cat as "ordered", but in fact the order present in a cat is noting compared to the order present in a salt crystal (from a thermodynamic/entropic perspective, anyway).
  19. Bishadi Banned Banned

    advanced? nothing being conveyed is new, nor of my 'original' idea, just with today's evidence and data, the ability to substantiate what many of the old timers suggested is now easy.

    have not sent a pub through the system since 1982 and since have enough material ranging from how the brain works, to gravity itself, through to the most important question every person on this earth has asked...........What is life?

    Why not publish? Did that once and found most of the complacent are too stupid to tie their own shoes. Sure many can follow theorem but few have enough combined knowledge to actually comprehend what is occuring.

    The work is not for business, namesake or making the so called intellectual community happy; it is to keep a promise.

    To substantiate understanding equal to all mankind no matter what flavor.

    Basically, 'undestanding' grounded in reality (the truth)!

    Let me put it into words for you; with the comprehension of 'life' and how existence actually works, the religions are over!

    The adherance to the 2LoT is as ignorant in its simplicity as creation is.

    a rule i learned a long time ago; "Simple minds don't want to know.'
  20. Steve100 O͓͍̯̬̯̙͈̟̥̳̩͒̆̿ͬ̑̀̓̿͋ͬ ̙̳ͅ ̫̪̳͔O Valued Senior Member

    And simpler minds don't want to tell.
  21. Bishadi Banned Banned

    the earth is round

    energy (light) entangled mass

    But if you like to think use your own integrity and answer 2 questions;

    why is Gibbs (free energy) theorem used?

    How can energy convey across a medium covering d/t and maintain its full potential?

    Any attempt to suggest 'that' phenomenon maintains the 2LoT is lying and of little integrity.

    ie... if the law is pure then a reversal could never happen within the same environment. Point is when energy associatiates upon mass, often a progression occurs increasing the potential greater than the addition of the 2 separately.
  22. Lamont Cranston Registered Senior Member


    Well he answered my question with a question. I haven't studied anything on Gibbs free energy for over 25 years, so I'll have to pass on that one.
  23. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

    He's just bein evasive - as usual. "Gibbs free energy" is nothing more than the energy released (set "free") from a chemical reaction.

    In essense, he didn't answer your question at all but just avoided it. (Typical.)

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