Libya. The Air War.

Discussion in 'World Events' started by ULTRA, Mar 18, 2011.

  1. Giambattista sssssssssssssssssssssssss sssss Valued Senior Member

    Did Qaddafi Deserve U.S. Funding? Foreign Aid Under Scrutiny Amid Mideast Unrest

    Hee hee.

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    Sometimes I wonder if some of the alleged conservatives on Fox News only see things like this when a Democrat is in power.

    Friends today, regime change tomorrow seems to be one consistent theme in US foreign policy.
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  3. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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  5. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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  7. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

    Is it supposed to count as a criticism that American foreign policy is not rigidly ideological and fixed?

    Personally I prefer the complaints of inconsistency to the old, tired charges of being inherently pro-dictator.
  8. katsung47 Banned Banned

    Wkhen the mainstream media block all your eyes, that may have said it all.

    They bring war to Libya, because it breaks up their propaganda? How could people of backward country under a dictator live a better life than “democratic Western”? Or just for its oil?

  9. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    One of Gaddaffi's son and three of his grandchildren have been killed* by a un-manned drone attack on his house. Gaddaffi & wife were there, but are unhurt. It would have been so much easier, with less side effects, if CIA had done this some month ago as I suggested when he was giving 2+hour speeches for the front balcony. The drone would not even have needed to explode - as it is remotely guided, they could have flown it down his throat during his speech!

    I had suggested:
    Above from my post here:

    *Here is BBC's report on death of Gaddafi son:
    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2011
  10. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    You can have both. You don't need to chose between. Both are true.


    After this was posted, the US set up another dictatorship in Honduras. Every country in South America, except the puppet government in Columbia, refused to recognize the military junta that over threw the democratically elected president, who took refuge to save his life in the Brazilian Embassy for about a year. If this Honduras dictatorship runs true to normal pattern, they in turn will be destroyed after they cease following US orders. That is the “inconsistency" part.

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    Just as Saddam was US’s “golden boy” for years and then the “evil monster” that justified the war. Here Donald Rumsfield is agreeing to supply Saddam with satellite photos of Iranian troop concentrations. - Saddam's use of poison gas only became operationally effective a few months after this photo was taken. The US was still very angry at Iran for holding many American captives and without US help Iran was very likely to win the Iran/Iraq war, so the US helped Saddam commit war crimes, which is why poison gas could not be mentioned at Saddam's trial.

    Noriego is another such case – I think he is now in a Miami jail but he was, as I recall, helped by use of the CIA’s planes to fly drugs into the US to raise fund for the Iran contra affair after Congress made use of taxpayer’s funds illegal. (My memory may be a little confused in this case, but I am too lazy to search and correct any errors. I also have the vague idea that he may have been released an set up in power again - perhaps he learned his lesson in that Miami jail and will take orders again?)

    Also earlier in the midst of the “cold war” every democratic government in South America was destroyed by the CIA’s support for local right-wing factions who set up dictatorships - ~50,000 supporters of the return to democracy were killed, mostly in Chili – Several thousand by being drugged and then pushed out of the US supplied helicopters into the sea – no bodies to bury. They and about 10,000 others are called: “the disappeared.”

    10 to 15,000 democracy return supporters were killed in Argentina, and about 5000 in Brazil. They sometimes tried to escape across borders but the CIA set up “Operation Condor” – an information sharing / coordinating computer system to keep taps on their cross border movements. They had to as the various dictatorships were not trusting of each other, but would work with the CIA. South American only emerged from these dictatorships when the CIA and US became deeply involved in the Vietnam War and did not have time and manpower to keep democracy movements down in South America.
    Above photo and following text are from:
    {For many years George Washington Un. has been using the freedom of information act to pry out documents. Many have great section blacked out for national security reasons, but slowly the truth is being documented for future historians.}

    "... Rumsfeld also met with Iraqi Foreign Minister Tariq Aziz, and the two agreed, "the U.S. and Iraq shared many common interests." Rumsfeld affirmed the Reagan administration's "willingness to do more" regarding the Iran-Iraq war, but "made clear that our efforts to assist were inhibited by certain things that made it difficult for us, citing the use of chemical weapons, possible escalation in the Gulf, and human rights." He then moved on to other U.S. concerns [Document 32]. Later, Rumsfeld was assured by the U.S. interests section that Iraq's leadership had been "extremely pleased" with the visit, and that "Tariq Aziz had gone out of his way to praise Rumsfeld as a person" [Document 36 and Document 37].

    Rumsfeld returned to Baghdad in late March 1984. By this time, the U.S. had publicly condemned Iraq's chemical weapons use, stating, "The United States has concluded that the available evidence substantiates Iran's charges that Iraq used chemical weapons" [Document 47]. Briefings for Rumsfeld's meetings noted that atmospherics in Iraq had deteriorated since his December visit because of Iraqi military reverses and because "bilateral relations were sharply set back by our March 5 condemnation of Iraq for CW use, despite our repeated warnings that this issue would emerge sooner or later" [Document 48]. ..."

    BT comment: legalistically, the US did not commit any war crime. It only supplied targeting information essential for Saddam's effective use of poison gas against Iranian troops.

    A prediction: If the Egyptian government remains under the military or some group like the Muslim Brotherhood gains control - that will be no problem for the US & CIA - they will support the new dictators, just as they did the old. It is so much easier to work with a dictator, who depends upon you for tear gas, water canon, and small arms than an unpredictable democracy.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2011
  11. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    Extending the list of CIA's "golden boys" given in post 287 who escaped control and became "terrible boys" the US had to eventually kill, we have OBL:

    "... The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in December 1979 changed Bin Laden's life forever. He took up the anti-communist cause with a will, moving to Afghanistan where, for a decade, he fought an ultimately victorious campaign with the mujahideen.

    Intelligence experts believe that the US Central Intelligence Agency played an active role in arming and training the mujahideen, including Bin Laden. The end of the war saw a sea change in his views.* ..."


    OBL was made as a radical Muslim leader by his courage and the stinger missiles the CIA sent him, mainly via first transfer to Pakistan, as that was the only way to get truck loads of them into part of Afghanistan which OBL controlled.

    Initially the Russian could advance into Afghanistan with trucks and tanks, but that became increasingly costly to them as the mujahideen, especially those taking orders from foolishly courageous OBL, held their ground and ambushed the Russian advances. Then the Russians ceased to try to advance by land and began to "leap frog" over the mujahideen with helicopters. OBL got the CIA to send the shoulder fired stinger missiles to him and after about a year, the Russian were in full retreat - crossing back over the border's "friendship bridge" they had built for the invasion.

    When the US built airfields and large military bases in the holy land (to OBL) of Saudi Arabia, OBL turned against the US too. His basic idea, consistently followed, was that foreigners had no right to occupy Muslim lands. Then he was no longer one of the "CIA's golden boy" but a "force for evil" (i.e. he was resisting US occupations in the Mid East) to be eliminated. - That took two decades, but now is done.

    Of all the CIA's "golden boys" only the Shaw of Iran never tried to escape control. He continued to sell Iranian oil for an average price of about $15/ barrel for years, and eventually died in US army hospital (I think it was in Egypt - but I forget) with CIA still seeing to his personal well fare.

    * IMHO OBL never changed is POV. The invading Russian were no different from the invading Americans - No foreigners had any rights to invade and occupy the Muslim holy lands. He was a religious fanatic. As a youth, he would often go into the desert for more than a week without any food and only a canteen of water to pray and fast.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2011

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