# Justice and Security: Neighborhood Watch Captain Attacks, Kills Unarmed Teenager

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, Mar 13, 2012.

1. ### BellsStaff Member

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That's what you got from that?

Good work, champ!

This post of yours is added to the list of /facepalm inducing posts in this thread.

Unbelievable.

It's better to beat your spouse behind closed doors...

Where no one can see or hear..

That's the spirit!

He had the drapes pulled at all times.

Heaven forbid someone is imprisoned or loses his/her job if they beat their spouse or rape their family members. Best just keep the drapes closed...

I mean these things should never be reported at all and there should be no laws against it, since on rare occasions, you may end up with a false accusation.

3. ### Fraggle RockerStaff Member

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Indeed. That's the conundrum that drives so many people to townhouses. What's the alternative, a condominium??? You've still got the frelling HOA, which now has communal control over your plumbing, electricity, heat and A/C. You have no lawn or garden of your own. You have less space than a townhouse. Your car is parked half a mile away (some townhouses have garages). If you change jobs and have to relocate during a recession when it would be a disaster to sell the condo, you may be the victim of a covenant that prevents you from renting it out.

Either that or you rent, and most landlords aren't as easy to get along with as the Fraggles are. (We have a house back in California and also rent some property, but I live in a townhouse in Maryland where I had to come to find work, and I rent out the upper floors.) Or you could just buy a house in the next county where prices are lower and spend 2 1/2 hours commuting every day plus the cost of gas.
They've been in existence for decades so the laws are pretty well worked out. As I said, mine is very responsible and wouldn't find itself in that situation.
Welcome to Florida. That wouldn't have happened in Maryland or California.
There's a hierarchy of minorities. Of course now that Euro-Americans are destined to comprise less than 50% of the population, we have to learn to call ourselves the "top-rated minority." Asians are second but there is still some hostility.
Last time I was in L.A. I was in a huge mall riding down the escalator behind a Good Ole Boy. He looked down onto the sea of Asian, Indian, African, and a few uncategorizable faces, and huddled closer to me assuming that anyone who looks like him would automatially think like him--amazing how they can forget the Civil War sometimes and not others. And he said, "I never thought the day would come, but I guess it's time to call the Messicans (that's how they pronounce it) "honorary white people."
"White" was never much of a formal term. It never even meant "Caucasian" back in the days when that word was in vogue. Arabs and Indians are "Caucasian" and they were never regarded as "white."
My mother had a stroke and collapsed on the floor of her mobile home. She lay there very quietly for days, conscious but impaired, waiting patiently to die. Unfortunately the "busybodies" started asking each other, "Hey, has anybody seen Granny Fraggle lately?" They called the cops, the cops let themselves in, and she spent a year in a nursing home having more strokes until there was nothing left but a body on tubes. If you want to die peacefully, a mobile home park for seniors is probably not the best place to live.

Her much wiser sister lived in a mobile on an isolated lot out in the middle of the Arizona desert. When they finally came out to disconnect her utilities for non-payment, they found her in bed with a book and a smile, nicely preserved by the dry desert air.
No. I was referring to the (surely uniquely American) phenomenon of spouses fighting physically with a few unstated rules to prevent serious injury. This is the way they blow off their hostility. I have no idea how common this is but two friends of mine in Virginia have seen cops called on neighbors who were fighting this way, so it does happen.
You misunderstand, and perhaps you cannot understand because this may be yet another uniquely American phenomenon. False reports of abuse, including sexual abuse, are common. There was an article in the paper just this morning of a guy who's been in prison for 15 years and the "victim" e-mailed him and told him she was sorry but she just did it to collect the money that rape victims get in some jurisdictions. She didn't realize that prison e-mail is monitored.

Children falsely accuse teachers and even their own relatives of sexual abuse because they've discovered that it gives them power. Perhaps they don't show "Ringer" in your country. That complicated conspiracy about the teenager accusing her teacher of rape wasn't just something they thought up.

Surely the whole world has heard about the McMartin Preschool Satanism hoax. People's lives were ruined by that scam.

Yes obviously what this ultimately accomplishes is to make everyone skeptical of all abuse claims. This is the way America works. We keep changing the rules and learning how to sneak around them. Theoretically it should exercise our brains and keep us smart, but lately it doesn't seem to be working.

5. ### BalerionBannedBanned

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That's what I got from that because that's what it said.

When you're done with your babyish pantomime, how about you explain to me where I have it wrong? Or is it more likely that you know you've been called out and are (yet again) reduced to mudslinging and general trollish behavior?

7. ### quadraphonicsBloodthirsty BarbarianValued Senior Member

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Yep, a condo is even worse than a townhouse. Which leaves...

Bingo!

I don't like to play my luck trying to find cool individual landlords, so these days I tend to rent in large, professionally-managed complexes. Of course this has many similar disadvantages to dealing with an HOA, but - crucially - repairs are their problem and I can bail any time it suits me.

Yeah, lots of people do this where I work. But, 2 1/2 hours per day would actually be a short commute, for someone buying out in the cheap parts in this particular area. I certainly couldn't afford to buy a detached house anywhere near that close to work. It would be more like 2 1/2 hours commute each way. Only if I were to do all of the driving at extremely early/late hours with zero traffic could I hope to get it under 2 hours.

Actually if I'm being totally honest there are areas nearby in which I could afford to buy a detached house. But they're ghettos. The extra costs of private schools and so on, plus the impact on our lifestyle, would be way more than what we'd save on a house. Kinda weird how these gnarly ghettos persist amid staggering wealth, but that's a whole other story...

Of course - the question is whether the difference between being on top of the hierarchy, or second-from-the-top is bigger than the difference between being on the bottom of the hierarchy or not. I contend that the latter difference is bigger.

Nah, we're just going to stop excluding all of the Euro-Americans who descend from Spaniards and/or came to the USA via a stop-over in a Latin-American country, from the term "white." That'll keep "whites" in the majority for another generation, at least. Didn't you notice that they changed the racial categories on the last census to reflect this?

Exactly. And, just as with the Italians and Irish before them, and the non-landowners before them, that "honorary" qualifier will disappear soon enough.

I can agree that "white" has never had a static formal definition, but it's very much a formal term. It's a racial category on official documents like the census.

Now, that is a truly muddled, problematic term...

Yeah, there was actually an court case back in the 1920's that codified that distinction explicitly.

But, again, you hardly have to reach that far to find examples of how far the term "white" has diverged from "European American." It wasn't that long ago that the Irish weren't "white," after all.

Point is that I see no reason that the historical trend of "whiteness" constantly being redefined to match the present sociocultural majority changing any time soon. Including white Hispanics is not much of a stretch - maybe if/when we get to the point of requiring south asians it will cause enough cognitive dissonance to challenge the name "white" and concept as a "race."

8. ### BellsStaff Member

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23,401
Update

A Florida judge on Friday afternoon revoked bond for George Zimmerman, the man charged with second-degree murder in the death of Trayvon Martin, and ordered that he turn himself in within 48 hours.

Prosecutors had asked Seminole County Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester Jr. to revoke Zimmerman's bond because they contend that he was disingenuous at an earlier bond hearing when Zimmerman's family and attorney claimed that he was cash broke. The motion filed by prosecutors claims that Zimmerman "misrepresented, mislead [sic] and deceived the court."

During a bond hearing on April 20, Lester set Zimmerman's bond at $150,000, and days later Zimmerman walked free. It was later revealed that Zimmerman had received upward of$200,000 from supporters, a sum that he did not reveal to the judge or to his own attorneys.

At that April hearing, defense attorney Mark O'Mara questioned Shelly Zimmerman, George Zimmerman's wife, who said she had no idea how much was in the account.

Prosecutors claimed that Zimmerman and his wife knowingly colluded to hide those funds, collected through a Paypal account attached to a website that Zimmerman launched to raise funds for his defense and thank his supporters.

"This court was led to believe they didn't have a single penny," Prosecutor Bernie De la Rionda said at Friday's hearing. "It was misleading, and I don't know what words to use other than it was a blatant lie."

According to the conditions of Zimmerman's release, he was to be monitored by GPS and surrender his passport.

During Friday's motion hearing, prosecutors said that Zimmerman also failed to disclose or turn over a second passport in his possession. According to the motion, Zimmerman acquired a second passport in 2004 after filing a claim with the State Department that his original passport was lost or stolen.

But, according to prosecutors, while Zimmerman was in custody at the Seminole County jail on April 17, he had a conversation with his wife in which the couple discussed the second passport. The conversation was recorded by jail officials:

Defendant: Do you know what? I think my passport is in that bag.

Shelly Zimmerman: I have one for you in safety deposit box...

Defendant: Ok, you hold on to that.

Did he actually think the donations he was receiving from that website would have been ignored? That the prosecutors would not try to determine how much he actually had managed to gather form his "supporters" from that website? And his passport...

9. ### AsguardKiss my dark sideValued Senior Member

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Is this stuff admissible at his trial as character evidence? If yes he's fucked

10. ### Fraggle RockerStaff Member

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24,690
In a high-profile case like this that's in the news every single day, it doesn't matter whether this evidence is technically "admissible." It will be very difficult to find twelve jurors and two alternates who aren't already aware of it.

11. ### seagypsyBannedBanned

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1,153
This is one reason I kinda wish the press was not allowed to report on cases until after the trial was over. The media makes it virtually impossible in some cases to get an impartial untainted jury. Which means there is no fair trial for these suspects.

If I am not mistaken, as told to me by a couple of UK citizens, the press there is not allowed to even report any evidence or suspect details in a case until after the trial is concluded. They are allowed only to report that a crime was committed but are not allowed to report any details of it other than where and when it happened. They are not allowed to report victim details or suspect details. At least that is what I was told by a few UK friends of mine.

12. ### AsguardKiss my dark sideValued Senior Member

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We have similar media blackout rules, in fact the TV show Underbelly had to be censored in Victoria (where the crimes happened) in case an appeal by one of the offenders was successful and he got a new trial

13. ### BellsStaff Member

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It would depend though.

If it was in a situation, as with Zimmerman, whereby he had openly started up a website and requested donations on said site, the media would report on something like this if his bail was revoked.

Because they would investigate his site and attempt to discern how much money he had made from it.

14. ### seagypsyBannedBanned

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Without media attention he likely not have gotten so much traffic to his site.media gave him free advertising.

15. ### BellsStaff Member

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Wasn't it his lawyer's and his father who had initially tried to set a site up for him and then booked media appearances before they realised he had done it all himself already, just prior to their then dropping him as a client?

16. ### seagypsyBannedBanned

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I don't know. I read so many conflicting reports that I gave up any shred of hope that I could make sense of it even to a niggling degree.

17. ### BellsStaff Member

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An interesting article on 'stand your ground' laws in Florida and how it is being applied in that state:

18. ### pjdude1219The biscuit has risenValued Senior Member

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That link shows why exactly this law needs to go away. The inconsistencies alone show ut to be stupid

19. ### Fraggle RockerStaff Member

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It's incredible that a man with absolutely no legal authority can follow a citizen in his car, then get out and follow him on foot, then accost him with no evidence that that he's done anything illegal, then discover that he is a minor who has surely been trained by his parents to avoid contact with strangers in lonely places in the dark, and then when the minor does the logical thing that he has been trained to do, which is to defend himself against a suspicious stranger who may be a child molester, the man can pull out a gun, shoot the minor, and claim that he was "standing his ground?"

He was the stalker! He was the person every American parent has nightmares about: a wacko with a gun! It was not his ground to stand!

If a state has a "stand your ground" law, to me that seems like prima facie evidence that I don't ever want to go there. The people are too stupid.

20. ### BellsStaff Member

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I think what is incredible is the inconsistencies of how it is applied and how the law seems to go against the actual intent of those who drafted the law in the first place. It is so bad that even drug dealers are using it now to get off killing other dealers or their customers, etc. Look at this as a prime example:

He is threatened with a gun. So he then chases the other person in his car and a gun battle ensues during said chase. He got off on a lesser charge beacause of how the stand your ground rules are being applied.

It boggles the mind.

21. ### ChipzBannedBanned

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838
This seems reasonable. There are some people who are a danger to you, and if you let them escape they will come after you. The best decision is to chase them down and take them out before they find you.

22. ### BellsStaff Member

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Update

I thought he was asking for donations to help pay for his legal fees? I wonder how his supporters who donated feel about his wife using them to pay off their credit cards?

Are they that stupid as to not realise that they would have been watched?

How could they think they wouldn't have been caught?

23. ### AsguardKiss my dark sideValued Senior Member

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I hope the perjury charges are herd before the murder ones, and that the conviction for perjury is admissible in court as evidence of previous bad behavior