Justice and Rape Culture: The Women Are Speaking

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, Nov 21, 2017.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Another implied insult. What makes you think that I cannot tell if someone is tactile or not?
    Not all men are sexual predators.

    Why do you stroke a cat or a dog? Is that sexual, or just affection and showing that you want to be friends?

    Listen to this ;
    and if you want to hear musical lovemaking, listen to the next instrumental by Pat Metheney and Toots Thielemans, this is true emotional intimacy, but not sexual. Its the B&W picture..
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
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  3. Kittamaru Now nearly 40 pounds lighter. Staff Member

    I think one thing that Americans in general have forgotten is that being intimate doesn't necessarily require sexual overtones. I mean, the definition of the word is a good bit different from how many people use (or perhaps, abuse) it.

    Write4U likes this.
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  5. birch Valued Senior Member

    okay, as i thought. no common sense. i suggest you be careful of 'stroking' people as you do a dog or cat. i suggest you not touch them at all and keep your hands to yourself.
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  7. Bells Staff Member


    But when you follow that with:

    What the hell?

    Do you tend to walk up to strangers you want to be friends with and stroke them like you are stroking a cat or a dog? Because this is what normal people do?
    Does the word consent mean anything to you? So when your friends bring someone you don't know to your home and you go to hug them to make them feel included, and they back away and clearly indicate no, do you respect their boundaries?

    Or do you jump on them regardless and give their backside or breast, etc, a good grope without their consent? You do realise what constitutes sexual harassment, yes?

    I simply cannot understand how people, in this day and age, can come up with statements like this:

    And still not understand the fundamental part, which is called consent.
  8. birch Valued Senior Member

    here we go again with another weirdly misplaced idea. yes, between CONSENTING adults. no one has a right to touch anyone without their consent whether you think there is no sexual overtone or feel affectionate. the other is not an object and the other is not obligated to accept your affection or touch based on only your justification.

    key concepts: CONSENT. MUTUAL

    it's pretty simple.
  9. Kittamaru Now nearly 40 pounds lighter. Staff Member

    Certainly - it was not my intent to diminish the importance of consent with that observation - if anything, I think the distinction makes consent even more important. Someone (male or female) may be comfortable with being intimate, but not with having sex or sexual contact. They may be perfectly fine with a kiss on the cheek (as some cultures use as a greeting), but not with a hug (in many ways, a hug is more intimate than a kiss on the cheek, in part because you are leaving yourself vulnerable to the other party). Heck you can be intimate without even having physical contact, though some would say that is being distant; for someone with severe anxiety, for example, just opening up to someone can be a deeply intimate act.

    Just as an example - my wife, for reasons that are not mine to disclose here, had requested early on in our relationship that we not have sex until we were married. She was comfortable being intimate, and even physically so in many ways; even so, that was a boundary she requested, and so I honored it.

    My point, with that, is simply that there are (or, maybe, should be) several "consents" requested / given during a sexual encounter - some implied, most not implied and should be specifically asked or given... and it should also be kept in mind that consent can be withdrawn at any time. That can be difficult in the throes of passion, and so should be a discussion that is had while both parties are clear minded.

    Of course, if one party has predatory intentions that discussion is likely to be moot.
  10. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Unless it's Clinton/Lewinsky, in which the power relationship between two aware, consenting adults obviates consent - or even initiative.
    Unless it's Franken/Leedum, in which even bringing the matter of "consent" up as the framing context on a USO tour with a standard USO tour script, the boundaries to be established by "No", and the matter of whether actual touching occurred, is defending predatory sexual assault on the same level as Moore's and slut shaming on the same level as fraternity rape excusers.
    Unless it's Barton/whoever, where even anonymous revenge porn, if directed at a powerful man who was in control of the situation, has its defenders on "both sides".

    For that matter, unless it's your aunt Mildred, who hasn't seen you since you were a baby.
    How about your ex-girlfriend, at a party?

    In good faith, US normal, these are no problem - your aunt Mildred is an ok hug unless she's been seriously abusive, the ex-girlfriend's is an ok touch if conventional (the ex-boyfriend is likely to be trickier - not on any abstract principle, but because he's probably, physically, more of a threat)
    The events are often simple, if evaluated in good faith. The principle is simply phrased, if read in good faith. The public issue, the litigation ("justice") of personal encounters in a public arena, is not. It would be a mess, even in good faith -

    which is lacking. See above.
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    I do just fine thank you. We have 5 cats a 2 dogs who live a life of luxury and affection. We have squirrels, birds, doves, quail, an occasional skunk and a few ferile cats who come to visit our yard, because there is always some food for them. In summer our yard is filled with happy bird songs. Inside the house there is always good music, the kind you just listened to above.

    We have several friends who are and always will be "dear" to us and will always be welcome in our house, and vice versa. We try never to offend anyone, in any way. So I will use my hands as is appropriate and without sexual intent.

    You are jumping from one extreme to another extreme and in the process lose all humanity.
    Stay balanced and do not be hasty to judge. There are civilized people around. We try to avoid uncivilized people. Consent may be asked for by opening your arms wide and invite the hug.
    If the invitation is declined, I'm not going to hug them. To a reasonable common sense person "consent" is easily recognized.

    And in your response to your ad hominem, we ARE using "common sense".
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    And it is your impression that I would do anything without consent ?
    This may explain what I mean;

    I try to follow Carlin's advice.
  13. Bowser Life is Fatal. Valued Senior Member

    Can I pitch a tent in your yard. It sounds pretty cool.
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Your empathic response inspired further thought on the subject of Tulpas.

    And here I also mentally revisited Anil Seth's lecture about "controlled hallucination".
    In his presentation, he offered a little humor that if many people share your mental best guess, we call that reality. He identified our mental best guesses as controlled hallucinations.
    Roger Antonsen identified shared perspectives as having mutual Empathy.

    If we think this through, then shared hallucinations by many minds do indeed create an empathic experience of "real", but non-physical existence of Demons and Angels.

    Extending my train of thought, we have generally identified social behaviors in accordance to the 7 deadly sins and 7 existential virtues.

    Anyone who believes in the existence of Satan and practices one or all of the seven sins has mentally become a demon. Hence the words attributed to Satan, "I am legion". And it's true, there are a lot of bad people in this world.

    OTOH, anyone who believes in the existence of Angels and practices one or all of the seven virtues, mentally becomes an angel. Hence the expression "thank you, you're an Angel". And that is also true, because there are also many good people in this world.

    And it would explain beliefs in mystical mental representations (controlled hallucinations) of human behavior. We all have our mental angels and demons, our personal Tulpas.

    I am an atheist and I do not believe in mystical beings, but I can understand that many people do believe in the concepts of demons and angels, and by that fact have created our own Tulpas in the images of what we fear, such as death, the dark, and mental suffering, and what we treasure, such as life, the light, and mental celebration.

    Most of us fall somewhere in between and this why we have instituted secular laws, which basically address the 7 sins. Which leads us back to the OP, which is trying to define what behavior is acceptable and what is not.

    And a last thought about "non sexual but affectionate hugging". We teach that parents should often affectionally hug babies and young children. But from my experience in the medical world it is also clear that elderly persons (often widows), also crave to be affectionally hugged.

    And in times of great stress, strangers may offer comfort to a victim with an empathic hug.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
  15. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    I never hug anyone and I try to show its not welcome if they move close but if they don't get it I hold arms by my side and tense my body.

    Family know better not to touch me.

    I hate someone thinking they can hug you and you have only just met them.

    Don't like girls trying to kiss hi either. They get near your ear and make a kissy sound. Its just BS.

  16. Bowser Life is Fatal. Valued Senior Member

    Hugs are a curious thing. Where does the impulse for physical contact derive? It's spontaneous, we just do it.
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    It is a bonding mechanism in many mammals, especially at birth.

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