Justice and Rape Culture: The Women Are Speaking

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, Nov 21, 2017.

  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    #rapeculture | #TheWomenAreSpeaking

    What: "Rape in the storage room. Groping at the bar. Why is the restaurant industry so terrible for women?"↱

    Who: Maura Judkis and Emily Heil (The Washington Post)

    When: 17 November 2017

    One of the things we need to remember is that business is business; the unspoken part is that some of this only goes as far as necessary to get the business through. That is to say, note the implications of the word, "After", at the start of the second paragraph of this excerpt:

    Women are vulnerable in just about every inch of a restaurant. Behind the bar. The hostess stands where patrons are greeted. Behind stoves and in front of dishwashers. From lewd comments to rape, sexual misconduct is, for many, simply part of the job.

    After the public toppling of Miramax co-founder Harvey Weinstein, it seems every industry is looking to identify its bad actors. In New Orleans, a blockbuster report by the Times-Picayune felled uber-restaurateur John Besh, who resigned after two dozen women said they had been subjected to sexual harassment within his empire—some of it by Besh himself.

    But the culture of widespread sexual harassment and abuse in kitchens and dining rooms from Washington, D.C., to Portland, Ore., can't be pinned solely on a few celebrity chefs or the rare, singularly powerful gatekeeper. It takes place in suburban chains and in dazzling three-star Michelin restaurants, and its perpetrators might just as easily be owners as lowly barbacks. The reasons are many, and they're complicated: Many kitchens are boys' clubs, dominated by machismo and flashing knives; many women rely on pleasing their male customers and managers for tips or good shifts; human resources departments might be nonexistent or toothless; and restaurant staffs are often hard-partying posses that blur professional lines.

    The Post interviewed more than 60 people across the country who either claimed they experienced such treatment while working in restaurants or witnessed it. Men are not immune from abuse, but the vast majority of victims we spoke to are women. Their stories show that how women experience sexual harassment depends on their place in the restaurant ecosystem. Cooks are harassed by other cooks, servers are harassed by everyone. And immigrants and young people—who make up a large percentage of the workforce—are particularly vulnerable.


    (Judkis and Heil↱; boldface accent added)

    That last sentence in the excerpt, by the way, will eventually start to seem thematic. This is about empowerment.

    And it is also about business. After a disaster, everyone moves to cover their exposure. Businesses will only sacrifice so much profit, only dedicate so much more overhead, according to their perception of necessity.

    Rape culture is not a business proposition, except when business needs it to be.
     
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  3. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    #rapeculture | #TheWomenAreSpeaking

    What: "'He Was Masturbating … I Felt Like Crying': What Housekeepers Endure To Clean Hotel Rooms"↱

    Who: Dave Jamieson (The Huffington Post)

    When: 18 November 2017

    Something about the word, "Since", at the start of the second graf:

    It wasn't the only time Cecilia had dealt with extreme forms of sexual harassment in her three decades working in downtown hotels. A male guest once answered her knock by opening the door naked. Just a month and a half ago, a younger colleague confided to Cecilia that a male guest had tried to embrace her while she was in his room. Cecilia escorted the shaken housekeeper to the hotel's security team to report the incident.

    Since the allegations against movie producer Harvey Weinstein were first revealed last month, more and more women have stepped forward with stories of sexual harassment and assault at work. Their bravery in speaking out has toppled powerful men's careers in Hollywood, Silicon Valley and Washington. But much less attention has been paid to the rampant harassment in blue-collar workplaces, particularly the hotel industry.

    Many of the stories that have hit front pages—Weinstein, journalist Mark Halperin, comedian Louis C.K.—center on powerful men who preyed on underlings or colleagues in hotel rooms—a trend that would surprise no woman who's ever worked as a housekeeper. If famous A-list actresses must deal with unwanted advances in the privacy of a hotel suite, imagine the vulnerability of an immigrant woman cleaning the room alone, for close to minimum wage, plus tips.

    "Frankly, I don't think much of the public understands what housekeepers go through just to clean these rooms and carry out the work," said Maria Elena Durazo, a labor leader with the hospitality union Unite Here.

    For several years Durazo's union has advocated for housekeepers to be given handheld, wireless panic buttons that can alert hotel security when a worker feels threatened—a sign of how dire it views the problem of sexual predation in the hotel industry. After working to negotiate the use of panic buttons in their employer contracts, the union is now lobbying city councils to mandate them through legislation so that all workers have access to them, union and non-union alike.


    (Jamieson↱; boldface accent added)

    To the one, we're up to panic buttons.

    To the other, I don't need a man to say certain things. My living room, last weekend, was a source of, "But she consented", and, "This is how it's always been", with a dash of something about things "getting out of hand". The men, by the way ... well, okay, I can't say the men were keeping their mouths shut, but still, they weren't the ones dropping those lines. The first, by the way, is entangled with the second or third, but those latter, especially, are part of the problem about the word, "since".

    Yes. We have a catalyst.

    There is a cynical part of me that wants to ask why it matters; after all, the snorting, growling derision mutters, we're either making excuses or not, but in no case are we settling the issue as it needs to be settled.

    The thing about the magnitude of how it's always been threatening to get out of hand right as the women start telling us is that, yeah, our failure to accept that things are out of hand before the latest catalyst—(How many times need we go through this as a society?)—is kind of the problem. It's so out of hand that trying to wrap our heads around it feels like everything is out of hand.

    But the women are speaking; indeed, as the news cycle persists, we can start to see the shape of things. Last weekend things might have felt somehow out of hand, but today last weekend is out of date. The discussion evolves as it will, but there remains this soul-devouring spectre, a patchwork demon poppet representing our systemic crusade against Woman. When we see it overseas enforced with rifles and machetes, we recoil. When it is our own neighborhoods, well, you know, that's just the thing, it's always just the way things are and we're always scrambling to catch up since the latest spectacular maybe-catalyst.

    Many people recoil from the mere prospect or rumor of rape culture. Looking at it so directly, and so often, and calling it by its name, is a challenging task. To the other, that speaks nothing of living within its influences if one is a woman in this society, which in turn seems somewhat unimaginable; empathy only gets me so close, and I can't promise it's the same damn county.
     
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  5. timojin Valued Senior Member

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    If you are old enough when miniskirt come into fashion 1962

    The reporters asked JFK what does he think about miniskirt.
    His reply was it is nice, "they show their nice legs , but now they will have to run faster "
     
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  7. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    That story was considered charming, once upon a time. A little young for the Sexual Revolution, but not by much. Missed the start by eleven years. 'Course, that's part of my problem.
     
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Aside from pedophilia, or rape, or sexual harasment, which are obviously unacceptable behaviors, there is one subject which has not been addressed sufficiently.

    If male "indecent exposure" is an item of concern, what would be considered female "indecent exposure" and should that be an item of concern?

    The make-up industry designed to make females more "attractive" is one of the biggest financial industries apart from Big oil.

    Let me qualify that I am from Holland and every year my family spent vacation time at a (nudism allowed) beach.
    I have absolutely no problem with nudism of any kind. I choose my friends by the quality of their brains, not the shape of their body.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2017
  9. birch Valued Senior Member

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    i've found men to be so awful, it doesn't matter what you do or don't do.

    starting as a kid with pedophilia, then a teenager which just ramped it up and even wearing baggy clothes did not deter it.

    then with all sexual harassment, it had nothing to do with the way i was dressed. i don't dress provocatively, i don't even wear cutoff shirts or show my navel or wear short shorts. ironicly, there was a time in my younger days that i did wear such clothes for a time and i was not sexually harassed more or less. it made absolutely no difference. as a matter of fact, that might deter some men from even approaching you because they might see you as more attractive or confident or higher maintenance. usually, sexual harassers tend toward an attractive target that they percieve is not too much they can't handle. bu none of that are guarantees. overall, all it takes for someone to sexually harass you is for someone to find you attractive period.

    being younger, alone, single, or even looking more plain/moderately dressed or even humility can be read as vulnerability by predators and can actually make you more of a target because predators see that as less confidence. the more brass, loud and aggressive you are, the less likely you will attract predators because you are not easy target and they are put off. act like a lady? especially really feminine? you are in big trouble. especially politeness or polite behavior to predators is an invitation to them. that's how they read it because you are 'nice'. that's why only when you are extremely cruel, mean or aggressive with predators or in the most blatant cases where you threaten to call the police, will they back off or be intimidated. it is nothing different than a predator/prey situation. it's just occuring between people.

    this is why you see women, especially younger women, flaunt their sexuality by dress, not because they are trying to attract sexual harassment but as a way to own and empower their right to be who they are; sexual, expressive, strong etc without having to apologize for it or be exploited for it or cower in the corner so men are not intimidated.

    predators are actually put off by strong women or even women who seem promiscuous or dress more provocatively, not because they don't want them because they surely do but because even though they are predators, they like the idea that they can control someone or have more influence over or be more pliable toward them. and very strong women and women who are very provocative don't fit that bill.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2017
  10. birch Valued Senior Member

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    yes, sexual harassment is common in the restaurant industry. has society got a clue yet? it's common everywhere.

    first, most people in the restaurant industry are average people and average people have poor or barely passable morals besides intelligence. these are generalities, of course because it exists everywhere but it's not taken as seriously in the service sector. bullying and verbal abuse is also common in the restaurant industry as in part of the work environment. it's just crass.

    when i was a waitress at a chinese restaurant where the cooks in the back were primarily mexicans, there was always lewd comments as well as behavior toward waitresses especially. i couldn't take it. of course, they know where there bread and butter is so they won't be doing that to the owner or his wife or the manager etc. this one girl told me one of them grabbed her butt once but she took care of that with her husband coming into the restaurant and giving him a warning. you do have to consider the type of people and calibre you are working with. whose side do you think the owners or managers are going to take, right or wrong? the cooks of course because they are viewed as a more important commodity.

    usually it will be something along the lines of a slap on the wrist, don't touch but they are still allowed to make lewd comments. average people tend to be lewd anyways so this is considered not too bad or normal to them. these are generalities, again.

    the only restaurant work that i have ever experienced where there wasn't any harshness, crassness or lewdness was once at an entirely japanese owned and operated steakhouse which is rare in america. rare as in even the cooks were japanese and were hired from overseas. they were rather quiet and polite and so were the owners but i think this was just an exception, not because they were just japanese. they just happened to be nice people.

    the other time was a short stint during the summer at an asian restaurant where it was primarily all asians as cooks and waitstaff but it was really hard. asians can be amazingly fast. they expected me to be faster than humanly possible but otherwise there was no actual stupid bullshit to deal with from them, it was all about the work. the tips were great though.

    the very worst restaurant i ever worked in was mostly all white in the south but because of racism. that was mcdonalds and burger king as a teenager.

    you have to have a really thick skin to work in the restaurant industry or be an owner (whose going to harass or mistreat you?) or be an asshole yourself.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017
  11. birch Valued Senior Member

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    i actually don't like to judge based on stereotypes but i've found some stereotypes are generally true. all these cases of harassment were in not the best neighborhoods and blue collar. initially you think rationally that it should be okay so you can save a couple hundred dollars or so but it's not even worth it. it's like is it worth the anguish or irritation? where i didn't have any trouble at all was when i was renting in an upper-middle class neighborhood and my roommates were more decent. never once was i harassed or had any trouble with my roommates but i was also paying more. they were not gossipy, inappropriate, invasive or rude. they minded their own business and were generally polite.

    of course, it can occur anywhere but generally, the worse the neighborhood and lower the rent, the worse your roommates will be. it's great for them because they are similar. why are they lucky enough to be able to save money but i have to pay more so i am not harassed? what i never understood is why i felt different than them as a person when i'm in the same situation financially but somehow i felt like who i was was being degraded even further as a person by being around them even as well as losing whatever brain cells i have left interacting with them. all they did was gossip and drink beer after work. i never understood why i didn't fit into what i should be fitting into considering my situation. i was also the only one to clean the bathroom which hadn't been really cleaned by anyone there. i had to use a toothbrush on the grout. why am i not as dirty as them if that is who i am? none of them cared. also, there was this strange pattern that i was still more intelligent than them yet i was in the same financial bracket. it made no sense to me that since i ended up in the same situation, why i somehow was always different in some way and not fitting in.

    you think saving some money is worth it but you will be paying the price in another way. besides just the sexual harassment, you have to deal with just the ignorance in general as well as some violence. there was some occasional domestic violence between the married couples too like punching walls, screaming and police called etc.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017
  12. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    So, Americans, then: We fight over breastfeeding. The women remind this is what their breasts are actually for. The complaint argues, approximately, that breastfeeding is indecent exposure because everybody knows that's not what boobies are for. The cosmetics industry? Yeah, there's a point to be made somewhere about that, but no, the American discourse isn't going to understand such (ahem!) subtlety for a while.

    Part of the problem is that the prudes just aren't very smart. Like, they passed a law, once, in a city across the state from me, about strippers not being allowed to be naked. The dancers wrapped a g-string around their wrist or ankle, and left that article of clothing on their body, thus satisfying the law. Now, either because it was a bullshit law intended to harass working women, so nobody really cared about preventing her nudity, or because these people just aren't smart enough to figure out how to actually write a law that prevents women from stripping off for money and thus gave up on trying because it's too hard, that seems to have been the end of it. In a couple places, Christianists resorted to stalking dancers with video cameras in order to tell each other where to live in order to go harass them some sluts. I haven't heard much about it, since, but I do know the Christianists have reversed their position on public accountability over the course of years; more accurately, they're not just flipping but spinning like a coin toss and buzzing like a struck ratchet.

    The result is predictable: Indecency, to the Christianist prude, is any woman that tempts self or something the self regards possessively, such as spouse or children, and thus must be publicly shamed and dangerously harassed. An accused male sex offender, though, needs privacy sufficient to attain the U.S. Senate. Or the presidency.

    This is how Americans do it, and there are reasons more and more of us declare it atrocious.

    And we'll always tell people it was never supposed to go so far, but that is dangerous wishful thinking. It's always been this way, and between right or wrong, enough Americans just don't think it's wrong enough, yet, so this is what its like, here.

    (And remember: We already know the Christianists don't care about what is accurate or not; this is all about themselves, their own, and their own greed.)
     
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    5,093
    Strangely, it is only the nipple itself which is considered indecent exposure. No one cares how much of the bulk of the breast is exposed, so long as the nipple doesn't show.

    But when we look at a tribe in Africa where women do not cover their breasts, no one calls that indecent exposure, nor do we find it offensive when looking at animal genitalia.

    Whereas in Islamic countries the women are forced to wear burkas, so as not to tempt man's baser instincts. Apparently Muslim men are incapable of sexual restraint and respecting a woman's right to refuse sexual advances.

    Something is really, really wrong here.
     
  14. timojin Valued Senior Member

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    You made a very good points . In the old time a tit was to feed the baby and the arsh was to shit, but in this new generation they have sexual stimulation ,
     
  15. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    #customarysilence | #TheWomenAreSpeaking

    What: "Poll: For women at work, harassment complaints fall on deaf ears"↱

    Who: T. J. Raphael (The Takeaway)

    When: 15 November 2017

    Via Public Radio International:

    "Oh, what a jerk, just ignore him."

    That was the advice a colleague gave to Alexandria Chang about 13 years ago. At the time, Chang was in her mid-20s and was a preschool teacher at a private school outside of Boston. She says that a father of one of the children in the school had made a sexually explicit remark to her.

    "That comment really bothered me, but I didn't tell my supervisor," she says. "I was about 10 years younger than this parent, this was my first place of employment out of Teachers College, and I was a Canadian living in the States, so I felt lucky to even have a job and a visa."

    Though she confided in her co-workers, "neither suggested I should let anyone in the school administration know," she says.

    That advice is not surprising. Reporting workplace sexual harassment can be an agonizing choice for many people, especially women.

    According to a recent Takeaway-Harris poll, more and more people (62 percent) say they feel comfortable speaking out and challenging their abusers. But when digging into those numbers, a different story unfolds.

    Of the women who did say they were comfortable speaking out, just 22 percent said they feel that way because they believe their company would listen and be supportive. In other words, many people don't feel like their company, their employer or the HR department has their back when it comes to harassment or assault.


    (Raphael↱)

    One of the persistent refrains I've been hearing throughout the recent outbreak of sexual harassment discourse is that this is how it's always been. Every once in a while it occurs to wonder if people somehow think this is some manner of justification.

    And, hey, yeah, did you catch that about a visa? Something about vulnerability goes here. You know: thematics.

    [Edit: Revise and extend my remarks (22 Nov 2017, 17.55 PST)]
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017
  16. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    #catalystandnecessity | #TheWomenAreSpeaking

    What: "They reported sex harassment in state jobs and found 'retaliation is alive and well'"↱

    Who: Marjie Lundstrom and Alexei Koseff (The Sacramento Bee)

    When: 20 November 2017

    We should not pretend there is anything new about these stories:

    When Carmyn Fields was negotiating a settlement last year in her sexual harassment case against the California Highway Patrol, the state's lawyers had a serious sticking point. They were insistent, even adamant, recalled Fields' attorney, Andrea Rosa of Elk Grove.

    “They wanted Carmyn gone,” she said.

    Nancy Kathleen Finnigan, a former legislative director, wasn't given a choice about her future at the Capitol in early 2013. After pointing out alleged inappropriate behavior by the Assembly member she worked for, Finnigan was fired, she said.

    Lydia Sims complained about sexual harassment at the Capitol four years before Anita Hill and Clarence Thomas ripped open the national debate in 1991. She filed a lawsuit, obtained a settlement but felt forced to leave her position—only to recently discover the man she accused years earlier had resurfaced in a plum, highly paid state job.

    “Being a 20-something kid having to sue the Legislature… it was pretty devastating,” said Sims, a former sergeant-at-arms in the state Assembly. “They went after me instead of him.”

    As the topic of sexual harassment bubbles to the surface inside California state government, and lawmakers promise reforms, former workers who say they experienced such treatment paint a grim picture of how their cases were handled.


    (Lundstrom and Koseff↱; boldface accent added)

    Part of what stands out here reminds of recurring themes: Vulnerability, and how it's always been. Oh, yes, and once again, the catalyst. "As the topic of sexual harassment bubbles to the surface", as Lundstrom and Koseff explain. Yes, even in the question of government, this is still about business; to the one, politicians cannot do the business of the people if they are weighed down with distraction; to the other, yeah, that's why there are payout funds for sexual harassment claims, like the one we hear about in Congress; and for the beeblebrox, the overhead most will struggle hardest to minimize is the part that brings personal obligation such as the expense perceived in the effort of treating one's fellow human beings with a modicum of honest decency. That is to say, there is only so much that can be done before the return on investment speaks against trying. Just as nobody believes Hollywood will be a clean place after a demonstrative purge, we ought not fool ourselves into believing legislators and other politicians are going to behave that much better anytime soon.
     
  17. birch Valued Senior Member

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    people can guage the social and political climate at any given moment and whether it's favorable or disfavorable in obtaining justice.

    the fact most guage disfavorably indicates just how sinful most people are to the point society, especially conservatives particularly, will trivialize it because it's so numerous. i know that sounds so simplistic but that's really what the problem is. all these people have lives and other people who are counting on them as such as family, friends, associates etc and it's a network in society.

    people view indictment (even if justified) as a tear and inconvenience in the fabric of that working network or society. you are also upsetting their world of happiness, their family, their lives, their friends etc because they want to believe the people they care for or are connected to are acceptable or it could be they are just guilty of the same/similar values.

    they want the victim to be quiet and if some people have to be sacrificed (as long as it's not them) then it's okay as long as business as usual can continue by covering it up. but it's not okay to cover it up because it's a social festering wound and will encourage more of that behavior from the perpetrator as well as signal to other would-be perpetrators to do the same as it becomes more prevalent in society as there is no deterrant.

    and ironicly, that may be what needs to happen in order for society to realize as a whole that yes, that everyone can be a victim too and you are not anymore entitled or special so if you don't want this to happen to you or those you care about, then take the wrongs done to others seriously as what goes around can come around to you as well.

    that said, the problem with perpetrators is though they can become victims as well, their seeking justice will not deter them from commiting offences toward others and there is nothing one can do about this hypocritical value system of theirs. they can because nature allowed that loophole.

    there are even women who undermine women's rights because their values are lower too or most often the case, the perpetrator is not offending them particularly or is their friend or relative. for instance, my half-sister had zero sympathy for my abuse at the hands of her father blaming me but she did go after someone else even more self-righteously for even a lesser offence because she was a victim of someone else.

    most people would have a conflict of interest if a relative or a friend did something wrong or illegal to someone else they do not know or care about.

    on top of that there are so many with conservative (immoral) values as well in power in all strata and level of society. truthfully, there are probably more conservatives when it comes to the moral front than there are genuine liberals (ethical values), even if they politically identify as such for other reasons.

    ethics is just not the strongest suit of society and ironicly that's what is the cause of most of society's ills. if they stopped being so myopic and short-term in their values and extend that beyond themselves, it would help even their own cause in case they become a victim just like an insurance policy but people are stupid and selfish. but just as well, you will have those who continue to commit offences in society.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017
  18. Bowser Life is Fatal. Valued Senior Member

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    I worked in the service industry while a teen. I can't say I ever witness any sexual misconduct. Later in life I did see some things that I thought inappropriate. And on several occasions the women were actually flirting with the men. Once a coworker leaned into me, so close that I had to move to the side of my chair.

    One day I was standing outside the shop, talking with the wife of the guy who owned a business next door. She was very attractive. While we were talking I looked behind me and noticed two coworkers standing nearby. They were grinning and making stupid facial expressions. She must have seen them. I was embarrassed for all of us.

    I think what is happening right now is a good thing, with all the allegation being thrown in the air. But I also believe those allegations should be investigated before condemning people and destroying lives.
     
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  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    5,093
    What bothers me most is that sometimes a hug is interpreted as a sexual advance, where in reality it is just a display of affection. IMO, this is a result of obsessing about sexuality, rather than empathy.

    Of course groping at erogenous zones is always inappropriate with minors or without consent.

    But the invention of virtual sexual behavior is changing our entire society. Non physical sex is becoming a major part of incognito sexual gratification, both for women as well as men and it is a worldwide phenomenon. My junk mailbox is usually filled with offers for establishing a non-physical social/sexual relationship.

    We have no real social rules for this relatively new way of "intercourse". Is having virtual sex with a person 3000 miles away something to worry about or is it just a natural release sexual frustrations, which everyone (men and women) heretofore engaged in in private anyway? After all it is always consensual, or you can always hit the delete button. No harm done in either case.
     
  20. birch Valued Senior Member

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    4,100
    please stop. people can interpret when it's inappropriate. just don't try to hug random strangers or people you don't know well or at all. that can make others uncomfortable.

    for instance, when i was renting a room once and that new guy asked me for a hug out of the blue was downright inappropriate. of course they play it off as it's innocent but that's one tactic. why wasn't he asking the men in the house for a hug? is empathy supposed to be just between men and women? stop pretending it's always innocent or appropriate. you don't have a right to demand or expect hugs from strangers by calling it empathy.

    also, when i had called a towman once and he continued to make the conversation personal when he was fixing my car, asking me out on a date and then hugged me (out of the blue) and then tried to kiss me, was that empathy on his part? or was that really his own selfishness as the motive?

    he was mexican and for awhile i did not have a good opinion of mexicans, especially men because generally they are very sexist. but that doesn't excuse his behavior because he was a mexican man.

    really, do you think that is empathy toward another? wouldn't empathy be considerate that a female is by herself and on the side of the road at night and to NOT come onto her, especially in a vulnerable situation like that? can you tell the difference between empathy and exploitation of a situation? besides, it's completely unprofessional?

    if you can't figure that out or lack that much sense, then one shouldn't be out in public or around people at all. geez
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
  21. birch Valued Senior Member

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    this doesn't quite make sense. it's easy for a male to make excuses but you don't use an example. if this was valid since your chosen words imply personal experience, please give a scenario where you would have a right to be 'bothered' by your hug of another being rejected or viewed as a sexual advance (or in that direction by touching or getting closer) when it is not meant to be?

    you do realize certain factors need to be in place, don't you? such as it must be not be someone you know well and have a mutual close friendship. it must not be a stranger or someone just as an associate either. also, hugs are actually a pretty personal interaction for most people. you usually have to feel pretty comfortable and have mutual sense when you hug.

    also, you do know that for a man to hug a woman does not follow the same protocol as a man to hug another man, don't you? women friends give women friends hugs as well as men give bro-hugs to their friends.

    your being 'bothered' when your actions are based on the initiative on your part and obviously not well-received indicates you either did not read or ignored willfully the other's signals or lack of them to warrant such action. even before someone hugs another, they naturally read the situation as well as the other person if it's okay before they do so. did you realize that?

    when you hug, the first thing is you reach out your arms, and then the other also reaches out or opens up for the hug. if you are going all in and they are standing stiff, not reaching out or forward toward you as well or even trying to turn away, what does that say to you?

    Please explain how you were 'bothered' and the circumstances that transpired.
     
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    5,093
    Now that was downright hostile. What makes you think I go around hugging everyone I meet? But I hug my friends and if they introduce their friends to me, I hug them also to make them feel welcome in my house, not because I am a lecher.

    May I remind you, that the cosmetics industries employ more chemists than all other coatings industries?
    What's up with the red lips and the eye shadow, the botox, the breast enlargements? I can go on, but I'm sure you get the point.

    I am NOT saying women are "asking" for it, but it cannot be denied that women want to look "attractive".
    I completely agree that inappropriate touching is crossing the line, especially in the workplace.

    When I was a musician in Vegas I had girls throwing their room keyes (or a small pieces of clothing) on the stage. And being in that industry, when a homosexual man would approach me and expressed his interest in me, I usually felt flattered and honored by such expressions of affection.

    Later, in another job, I had a homosexual boss, who took me to several parties, where everybody hugs everybody, including me, even as they knew I was straight, but wanted to show their appreciation for my empathy with their life style. I always took it as complementary. Of course, I was born and raised in Amsterdam, Holland, where sex is not a taboo as it is here.

    p.s. I have been married and faithful to my wife of 45 years. I know how to control my male hormones and I am a little bemused by all the hullabaloo over "inappropriate touching" such as a light touch on the shoulder or a comment on how attractive a person's hair or dress is.

    But my main point was that relationships are becoming more and more impersonal and physically distant.

    But I am sure that there are men who take advantage of their position and of course that is a form of intimidation and taking advantage of their status.

    But being allowed to dress attractively on "special occasions", such as going to a big social event, then complaining that some guy hits on them, seems a little disingenius. In Muslim countries the women are punished for man's baser instincts by being forced to cover themselves from head to toe and being beaten when they show an ankle. That's reality also for millions of women. Don't see many Muslim women wearing bikinis.
     
  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,093
    That picture of Al Franken's little gesture was not intended as a sexual advance. She was wearing a bullet proof vest. It was inappropriate, but once a comedian always a comedians. And comedians always walk a fine line. That particular joke was in bad taste, but hardly can be called an attempt to have sex. It was a bad joke, that's all.

    I have heard women talk among themselves, and often made me smile about the language they use to describe a particularly attractive guy.

    Oh and I do recall that Monica Lewinsky told her girlfriend that she was going after Bill Clinton. She was the one who was attracted to him and became the predator. She made herself available. Bill Clinton faced Impeachment for her brazen lack of respect . He lied to protect her reputation as much as his own. IMO
     

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