Jews

Discussion in 'History' started by arauca, Sep 1, 2013.

  1. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    If their true ancestral homeland is that region as many claim, then why wouldn't they have that right?
     
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  3. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    I know a thing or two about cooking, and I've been on a kick picking it back up lately. If I don't find an Arab restaurant selling pork shawarma sandwiches soon, I'm gonna start making them myself.
     
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  5. pjdude1219 screw watergate i want to know about zaragate Valued Senior Member

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    same reason they have no right to palestine. a religion has no right to a state least of all one that would deny people of a territory their right to self determination.
     
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  7. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    Why wouldn't the Jews as a nation have a right to self-determination? They view themselves as a nation and have been treated as such throughout history. They're not a random conglomeration of Europeans anymore than the Germans or French are. They even have their own languages that they alone have spoken for thousands of years.
     
  8. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    I mean geez, Turkey's allowed to have an independent state, a huge one in fact on high quality land, much of which was stolen from European and other nations in the name of religious conquest, yet you're not frowned upon today if you identify yourself as a Turkish-American or Turkish-Italian or whatever. Less than 100 years ago Turkey massacred 1,000,000 Armenians and still doesn't recognize the Kurdish right to self-determination, but no one tells them they should carve off half their country or accept enough immigrants to overwhelm their domestic population, nor are they held to account for any of the multitudes of crimes they committed around the world during their time as an empire. What percentage of Turks identify themselves as Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews or atheists? Does the current government there recognize the separation between mosque and state?
     
  9. pjdude1219 screw watergate i want to know about zaragate Valued Senior Member

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    Because the right to self determination isn't based on after 2000 years of being a religion deciding you want to be a nation it's based on being legal residents of a territory deciding their own political status. And such rights can't be gained through illegal acts no matter how many people you've convinced other wise.
     
  10. pjdude1219 screw watergate i want to know about zaragate Valued Senior Member

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    What is it with you zionists and your demands that israel and the jewish faith get to be held to the lowest historical standards possible? And I believe Kurdistan should be an independent country. With the Turkish parts iranian( one of the oldest states in the world) and Iraqi parts( a country with the dubious distinction of being an even faker country than modern israel) should be unified as one country. The Kurds meet the international accepted logic for self determination. Jews didn't in 30's and 40's and don't now.
     
  11. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    They had self-determination in Israel before the Romans conquered it (twice), they had self-determination in Khazaria before they were conquered and expelled, they had self-determination in many communities all over Europe (Britain, France, Spain, Germany, Russia) that fell under one ruler after another and ultimately ended up slaughtered, forcefully converted or expelled. In Muslim countries they faced blatantly discriminatory laws that among other things left them with not even a basic right of self-defense from countless Muslim pogroms and mob violence in general. Then there was the Holocaust- when 90% of an ethnic group with its own language or religious customs is exterminated in a regional genocide, with many others displaced, while most actors either sit back complacently or directly partake in the slaughter, how is that ethnic group not entitled to an independent state for its own self-defense? To pour salt on the wound, nations such as communist Poland expelled what few Jews remainded in that region after WW2 (about 80,000), so clearly the Holocaust wasn't the end of the bullshit train.

    What right did Britain and France have to carve up Germany, Russia and Austria to create an independent Poland after WWI, when it didn't exist as a sovereign nation for a long time before then? Why don't the Jewish people who identify themselves as a nation with their own language and culture have a similar right to a land of their own? Why does America, with its swarms of foreign immigrants and their descendants, get to have a huge slice of North America all to itself on the backs of the mostly eradicated native inhabitants, but the Jews aren't even allowed a sovereign self-determining state in the lands where their families have lived for centuries or longer and where they've faced systematic social, religious and political discrimination the entire time?

    Who said they should be held to the lowest standards possible? We haven't even touched on the genocide that was used to establish modern America. See if Israel were to follow America's example, all they'd have to do is poison the Palestinian water supply and drive them all out, except unlike in the US case, Europe wouldn't complacently stand by or allow internal divisions (i.e. France, Britain and Spain at war and not giving a crap about the Natives) to stop them from taking retaliatory measures. Mercifully, Israel has only ever killed an extremely small fraction of the Palestinian population, far more of them die at the hands of fellow descendants from the Arabian peninsula.

    If you want to make the argument that Arab Palestinians are actually descended from the Greek Phillistines who lived there 1000 years before the Arabs invaded, that the Jews are descended strictly from Germans or Khazars or just a bunch of people who spontaneously converted to Judaism around the world, and that you have the right to force the Jews' expulsion from or demographic subjugation in Israel, then what slice of America would you agree to hand them in the name of sharing a common standard and the accompanying spoils of war?
     
  12. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    Frankly if you want to apply the same standards to Jews that apply to nearly every other surviving ethnicity on the planet, you'd have to treat them as if they'd been treated that way throughout history, in which case based on standard population growth figures there would be about 300,000,000 of them around the world today, along with the accompanying sovereignty, property and territorial rights.
     
  13. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    You could also take the Mughal Muslim invader state known as "Pakistan" and hold Israel to those standards, how about that?
     
  14. pjdude1219 screw watergate i want to know about zaragate Valued Senior Member

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    you and ever other zionist.

    same thug mentality as every other zionist we want want there fore we have the right. again why should america or any people have to give up their rights their territory for a religion to have a state. Its a shitty idea for the vatican and its a shitty idea for Israel. its funny in your mind I'm the anti semite but your the one who repeats nazi propaganda and I merely seek to hold Israel and the jewish "nation" to the standards it ask to be held to when it claimed to be a modern western democracy.
     
  15. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    Well good, let's see all the Catholic states of the world abandon the Vatican first, since it's been around way longer than modern Israel and shares much of the blame for the Jews' lack of a universally-recognized homeland. Secondly, your arguments do nothing to delegitimize the right of the Jewish people to self-determination in an independent state, on the basis of the historical sovereignty which they've been systematically denied for 2000 years, the countless instances of unpunished ethnic cleansing in Europe and throughout the Middle East to which they've been subjected, and the fact that Judaism is not only defined by religious tradition but also cultural and familial heritage. Call it the "Yiddish" or "Hebrew" state if that's how you want it, fact is they meet all the necessary qualifications. The Jews have more right to an independent state than just about every nation on Earth today, especially the nations of North America, Europe and the Middle East, most of whom if not all were established in the process of exterminating domestic populations and ethnically cleansing lands that once belonged to others.

    Certainly the Jews have more right to sovereign self-determination than Poland, which wasn't a sovereign nation for hundreds of years before Britain and France re-invented it, whose society and culture are barely out of the crib compared to Jewish history, who have demonstrated imperialist ambitions when given the opportunity (i.e. unprovoked invasion of USSR after gaining independence), and who participated in mass-scale ethnic cleansing both before and after WW2. The Jewish people share common links in ancestry, heritage, language, philosophy and history, and that entitles them to a sovereign self-determining nation, just like all the stupid pricks in other countries get to have their own nations just because they make some kind of specialized cheese or pickles, and speak a slightly different slavic or Germanic language or Arabic dialect.

    Since you won't drop it even after what, 3 years? Poland got its ass kicked in WW2, their armed forces were way outdated, their people were too busy being incompetent racists and trying to follow Nazi Germany's footsteps, rather than focussing on what was most important for their own well-being and self-defence. That's not Nazi propaganda, it's historical fact, so get over it. I'm not the one who tried to blame Poland's problems on the Jews, nor am I the one who went scanning through a Wikipedia article about the Jews of Poland looking for non-issues to pick a quarrel over, as if somehow Israel's establishment was an unjust consequence of Poland not doing enough to oppress them in the first place. If you want an apology from me, find me a long-time Polish board member in good standing who doesn't spout racist bunk about Jews and who took serious offense to me interrupting your trolling, and I'll happily apologize and explain myself to them.
     
  16. arauca Banned Banned

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    What do you think about Roma people . Should there be a sovereign state ?
     
  17. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    They supposedly already have one, namely Romania. If on the other hand, they can establish that their national and cultural rights are systematically violated and oppressed by the Romanian majority, then I would absolutely support the establishment of an independent Roma state where Gypsies would constitute the majority. Look at Quebec as an example from my own country. The French separatist movement in Canada is dominated by racist, fascist, history-revising ethnic nationalist delusionals, but we Canadians still recognize their basic right to a sovereign state on a portion of Quebec if they ever vote for it.
     
  18. mathman Valued Senior Member

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    The Roma people have no particular relationship with Romania (named derived from Roman empire). Roma people are believed to have been migrants from India. The evidence is essentially linguistic.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people
     
  19. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    Well let's just take the argument all the way and agree we're all Africans, then.

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    The Gypsies have been in Europe for many centuries, and Romania is considered their national homeland in Europe- under current laws, they're entitled to automatic Romanian citizenship, as well as all the rights within the EU that entails. They've spent enough time in Europe establishing their communities and having those communities shattered by repeated pogroms to have rightfully earned their share of the pie. If India's their true homeland, then India would rightfully owe them their fair share of the Indian subcontinent, but I think the Gypsies should have a home in Europe, and if they weren't entitled to one before, then Hitler's Holocaust most certainly earned them that subsequent right.
     
  20. mathman Valued Senior Member

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    What laws? Romania, UN? Are Gypsies living in Spain subject to Romanian law?
     
  21. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not sure, but think "royal laws" I.e. many modern Gypsies do have a king,* without a kingdom but the Roma people do not like being called Gypsies, so I ask their foregivness.- I only did it so all would know of whom I speak (many are too ignorant to know their correct name).

    * Many in fact as the Roma are divided into tribes. Much like the Jews have tribes. Also like the Jews, they were sent to the gas chambers by the Nazi, but the Brits did not feel bad enough about that to give the Roma a piece of the old Ottoman Empire they were the administrators of after WWII. Also important was the fact that the Roma were not terrorists doing things like blowing up the king David hotel etc. to demand a "homeland."
     
  22. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    You think Israel wouldn't have gained its independence if the King David hotel hadn't been blown up? The British were already on their way out, the Arabs didn't want them there either and staged repeated revolts that killed a lot more Brits than a mere hotel bombing (plus they sided with Hitler during WW2). Perhaps you're right though, the Roma should have copied the Irish and resorted to terrorism to gain an independent "homeland" in Europe on top of the one the Irish stole in America, seems smaller measures would only get you a beating from the Bobbies, especially if you were coloured.
     
  23. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    No, the Jewish nation has long before Hitler was born, hoped for a homeland and specifically one that included Jerusalem - for centuries a popular Jewish new year's toast has been: "Next year in Jerusalem."

    if the Roma had a Homeland, it lost all significance to them also long before Hitler was born. They were a people who wandered in and thru the land of others but now many live in high rises etc.
     

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