Jewish history

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Carico, Oct 25, 2008.

  1. Carico Registered Member

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    Since atheists claim they deal in facts, not fantasy, then please tell us the real history of the Jews so you can speak from knowledge, not ignorance for once.

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    So you can start by telling us who was the first real Jew and where did he come from since you claim that Adam, Eve and their descendants were fictional characters.

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    The bible gives us a lineage from Adam to Christ. So which people in that lineage were fictional characters and which ones were real people? Then explain where the real people came from? Since atheists live in a fantasy world where they make up their own history this should be really entertaining. So let's see if you can discern fact from fiction.

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  3. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Why, purely because you can't?
     
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  5. Betrayer0fHope MY COHERENCE! IT'S GOING AWAYY Registered Senior Member

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    Let's say I care enough to do the entire lineage. Then what the hell are you supposed to do?
     
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  7. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Whats a "real" Jew?
     
  8. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    *************
    M*W: Please do tell us what history atheists make up.

    Your question about who was the first Jew goes back to ancient Egypt, specifically the Eighteenth Dynasty, and maybe even earlier. The ancient Hebrews were known as the habiru and/or the apiru who were the ancestors of the Hebrews. They were nomadic shepherds, not slaves, as your bible would indicate. They were common laborers in the fields. Read anything by Ahmed Osman, a well-known Egyptologist.

    Since you don't know the true history of christianity, you probably don't know the history of the Jews either. If I were you, I would start from there. IOW, you believe in a fantasy, and you make up your own history. It's a waste of time to read any of your posts, because you do not deal in reality.
     
  9. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    But until they adopted the god of the Canaans "El" and named him YHWH, were they "real" Jews?

    Its fascinating though, how the apiru/Habiru through the modern Jews have consistently been survivors among larger groups that have exploited them as labourers or slaves [insurgents, as those forced into guerilla warfare to survive are usually called].

    Is there any other group that has been so small and yet so stubbornly and uniquely persistent against all odds?
     
  10. CheskiChips Banned Banned

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    Often history confuses ancient bedouins and Hebrews as being synonymous. They were related...but not identical.
     
  11. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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  12. CheskiChips Banned Banned

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    bedouin is translated as "Migrant sheep herder"
     
  13. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    The apiru were not sheep herders, they were a rebel social class
     
  14. CheskiChips Banned Banned

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    I'm afraid we'll never really know who they were before, or after.
     
  15. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Then you haven't been reading too well. Genetic studies have placed Jews in the North Fertile crescent and appear to substantially validate their history as migrants from the Assyrian lands, I'm sure Israeli linguists and archaoelogists will uncover more evidence, as will the Arabs now that they are becoming interested in exploring the past. There is a wealth of untapped archaeological information just waiting to be unearthed.
     
  16. CheskiChips Banned Banned

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    Mostly in Iran and Iraq, if they ever become stabilized. Hold the anti-American comments, please.
     
  17. Kadark Banned Banned

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    Carico,

    If you're going to take the evangelist Christian viewpoint to the history of Jewry, then please, do not bother. The Jews today do not have a common history. Besides, why should it matter if you're an atheist, Christian, etc.? History will not change itself to make way for your beliefs.

    Gentiles are hardly to blame for the Jewish-Gentile conflict, and indeed, separation is the only solution.


    Kadark
     
  18. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    If you're interested in reading what is known, here is a good link to begin with

    http://www.bibleorigins.net/Hebrewhabiruslaves.html
     
  19. CheskiChips Banned Banned

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    Many of the interpretations here seem to be confused with later Christian additions. But I'll read it more thoroughly when I can get it to a printer.
     
  20. ylooshi breakingspells.net Registered Senior Member

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    Since you seem to care so much, why don\'t you tell us what you perceive as a history of the Levant, Mesopotamia, and the Near East, citing appropriate ethnographic and archaeologic sources?

    Why would anyone one bother with such a stupid-ass demand? First, why should there be any evidence of the first person to consider himself a \"Jew\" and why should it matter? Second, you\'re the one making a positive claim about \"Adam and Eve,\" so why don\'t you cite legitimate sources (outside of biblical mythology) that support that such persons existed?

    The Near East is full of mythical tales that speak of \"first peoples.\" They were obsessed with telling each other their lineages and who they were and where they came from, even if it wasn\'t accurate. There\'s no reason to believe that biblical mythology that religious nuts cling to today as \"truth\" isn\'t also a compendum of half-truths, tall-tales, and outright fabrications used to propagandize followers and maintain the status quo of ruling elites.

    What good reason is there to believe that any of them were real? Maybe some were. Maybe none were. Maybe all were.

    One thing we know for certain is that Mesopotamian, and Levantian peoples had strong traditions in oral history, oral story telling, and borrowing each others\' \"histories\" and \"stories\" to create new ones. This is an indisputable and understood phenomenon that emerges in cultural studies from Anatolia to Sumer to Canaan to Egypt. There\'s no reason to believe that the Canaanites who later became the Isrealites didn\'t also have the same literary habits as the rest of the region. In fact, there\'s good reason to believe they did since many of the stories in the Old Testament can be traced to older texts, such as that of the Noachian flood myth -which is an over-embellishment of the Sumerian myth.
     
  21. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    I don't think you are capable of judging fact from fiction. Who did Adam and Eve's children marry?
     
  22. swarm Registered Senior Member

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    Why would I care about the Jew's history? Its not really that interesting.
     
  23. Leo Volont Registered Senior Member

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    Much is said in Allegory. Individual Names are probably substituted for complete Clans or Tribes.

    Abraham was not the first Jew, technically. Abraham is the "Father" of all Semites -- Arabs and Jews. Differentiation between Arab and Jew begins with the Sons of Issacc. This is where it gets funny. Jacob, the Jew, was the younger son, but he was a little cheat and liar and was able to steal the Birthright by deception. God Himself was offended and sent an Angel to kick Jacob's ass. Jacob's mother supported him in this because she saw herself more in Jacob than in her first son, who was mannly and honorable. She herself was probably a prostitute. When Abraham's family sent a Servent to find a Wife for Issacc, this one particular woman was the first to meet him as he came into town. What kind of woman is the first to toss herself in the path of a travelling stranger? Who participates in lies and deceptions?

    The Jews take some great pride in being descended from this Cheat and Liar. This should give us some keen insight into their Psychology... why they enjoy being lawyers, bankers, business people... where screwing over people is okay because it is Just Business. Far from seeing Jacob as flawed, even evil, they see his clever deceptions and cheats as traits to be lived up to.

    Hey, its their Bible. I'm not making this stuff up.

    But is any of it true? Scholars have had trouble finding anything supposively from the Books of Moses, the early chapters of the Bible, that date prior to the Babylonnian Captivity. Indeed, some of the later Books of the Bible... taking up from after the Stay in Egypt... have a kind of discontinuity from the Books of Moses... suddenly the Jews are not careful about Priestly Rules and such that only a chapter before had been so all important. many Scholars therefore suppose that the Jews only became acquainted with the Legends and Stories of Abraham and Moses when they came to Babylon. It was a huge Cosmopolitan City, the Center of a broad Empire, in commerce with another Huge Empire, Persia. They were probably amazed and delighted with the Literature they found. So they stole some of it. They created a Legend for themselves.

    Why they wrote themselves into being a Race of Scheming Liars and Cheats... Well, maybe they had some Bad Boy Thing going. Being Noble and Religious would have been too sissyfied for them, and so they thought being clever...

    Oh, there are other Scholarly interpretations for the Jacob vs Esau dichotomy. You see, before the Babylonnian Capitivity there had been a Civil War between the Jews, between Israel and Judah. The War had gone undecided until Ninava, a Civilization from the North, came down and helped out by conquering Israel the way that Babylon had subsequently conquered Judah... the difference being that History tells us nothing of what might have happened to the captives of Israel. The Ten Lost Tribes.

    There is some modern proof that the Jews were not really the Jews ... the legendary people from the Bible... that the Babylon Jews stole the book and applied it to themselves. If one goes to the Kashmir region of India, and looks at the Ancient Census Data, one finds that every 3rd boy was named Moses. One finds local place names from out of the Bible... places that are not named in the Near East where we would expect to find them.

    so it is very likely that the Jews stole their Biblical Identity.


     

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