Japanese solution?

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by universaldistress, Mar 15, 2011.

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  1. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

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    Because they have power back to the plant site and are cooling the reactors and the spent fuel ponds with fresh water.
    The radiation isn't 'spewing out' (see pdf I just posted, the readings in the areas around the plant continue to decline), but what we are seeing still leaking into the drainage ditches is a result of all the spraying they did early on with sea water for the reactor buildings and cooling ponds. They are now doing much more targeted filling of the ponds with a concrete pumper truck and not using the water cannons.

    Arthur
     
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  3. ULTRA Realistically Surreal Registered Senior Member

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    The radiation in the sea was yesterday the highest yet. They don't yet know how the radiation got in the ditches, and the evapourator was full, so they couldn't pump out the sump. The fact that fresh water is being used is nothing to applaud, it changes nothing. Seawater was an extroadinary measure, fresh water just means corrosion will be reduced, but is not an advance, it just rectified a retrograde step.
     
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  5. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, but getting to the point where they have to pump out this water is an ADVANCE over where they were before.
    They brought in storage tanks for the water.

    Since they were able to lower the water by about a meter in the trenchs, it somewhat confirms the fact that most of the water came from the Tsunami. Draining this water from the trenches should also reduce the amount of water draining out of the site (and yes yesterday was higher, but again it was mostly I-131 with a half life of 8 days, so no long term effect)

    Like I said in my post, it is getting better at the site.
    Yes, progress is slow, and it will take time, but so far there is no indication that problems are getting worse.

    Arthur
     
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  7. ULTRA Realistically Surreal Registered Senior Member

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    There have been some changes for sure, and I don't blame the workers on the site as you know. They can only use the tools they are given. But up till now all the efforts have been a firefighting excercise (literally in some cases). Even restoring the power has done little due to shortsightedness. You may recall that a few days ago I suggested pumping out the sumps into tankers. There are still large leakages of (mainly) iodine into the sea, and the pipework in the trenches filled by the tsunami are thought to be ruptured, and there's no way to fix them. Cooling is satisfactory under the circumstances. Still using a concrete truck to save a multi-million facility is hardly much of an improvement. But the government does not yet consider the situation under control, now they're part nationalising the plant so will have more of a say. I wrote a piece on this in the "N-Plant" post, if you're interested.
    I would say the situation is stabilising at a level of severe incapacity. Not worsening further. Improving would seem a tad optimistic at this stage, but things are seemingly moved up the scale from catastrophe to disaster. Grim but Manageable is not too far away now. But as we've seen with this plant before, we have to be careful not to count our chichens just yet, and when you, don't let TEPCO count them!

    http://t.rthk.hk/swinw
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2011
  8. Kumar Registered Senior Member

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    Thanks. You teach better. But my following question remained not fully awnsered:-

    Since energy has mass can we consider that this mass cause chain reactions ot act like radioactive atoms? If energy has mass then simply calculating substance/mass/matter presence in a mixture or solution by Avogadro's law will not be enough. Mass of energy(if it can settle/accumulate) & can produce chain reactions alike radioactive atoms then energy along with its mass produced by such mixture or solution shoulsdalso be accounted, alongwith while counting by Avogadro's law?
     
  9. Kumar Registered Senior Member

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    Can you tell differences in magnitude & damages by radiation & radioactive material if they are in open air, burried in concrete and these are dumped into the Sea?
     
  10. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

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    The increase in release from the sea was no big deal, it was mainly because it rained causing the amount of drainage to go up.

    The concrete pumper is important because it has a 60 meter reach which allows it to put the water in the spent fuel pool, not just spray it like the water canon was doing. So now they only add water occasionally and only to the pool. China is sending 3 more of the pumpers today.

    They've got power back in the buildings and to the control rooms and that's why they have more info now on the reactors (intlet/outlet temps and pressures) and that's why they know there was no major leaks from them as the RPVs are all holding pressure.

    Like I said, the radiation levels in the surrounding area are falliing

    Here are some of the hotter spots that I've been tracking since the 25th in u Sv/h

    1) 6.9, 2.5, 1.8
    2) 7.5, 5.0, 4.1
    3) 7, 5.0, 4.8
    21) 7.4, 6.5. 4.0
    31) 30.5, 20.0, 16.8
    32) 63, 45, 38
    33) 27, 21, 20
    34) 10.6, 8.4, 7.9
    79 27, 21.2, 13
    83) 92, 82, 55

    You can see a clear downward trend, towards levels that will allow people back into the 20 km area fairly soon (well once the reactors are in cold shutdown mode).

    Arthur
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2011
  11. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

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    I've been tracking it manually, but JAIF put it into graphical form which makes it easier to see what is happening.

    http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/news_images/pdf/ENGNEWS01_1301652988P.pdf

    Arthur
     
  12. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    In comparison the city of Ramsar has an average of 10.5 mSv/yr (1.2 uSv/hr) with a maximum of 260 mSv/yr (30 uSv/hr). So I don't see any reason for the evacuation zone to remain once they can officially declare the situation under control.
     
  13. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

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    the typical Briton receives about 2,200 microsieverts of radiation per year from background radiation, or about 0.251 microsieverts per hour
     
  14. DwayneD.L.Rabon Registered Senior Member

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    Well Kumar
    It would seem that some understanding of Avogadro's law may have been badly represented by some writers, I know that some pharmcist have a problem understanding it which some time leads to medication that has too much dosage. the confusion may be in their understanding of the molecular gram compared to Atomic Mass Unit gram and Avogadro gram

    Amedeo Avogadro most likly derived his formula in 1811 from hydrogen the lightest known atomic element, that Hydrogen which contains one Proton,and one Neutron and one electron. Useing this hydrogen atom the determined system by Avogadro's law would be retained, even when electrons or energy have mass.
    Helium has two atoms,Neon has 10 atoms. two hydrogen atoms equals one Helium atom, even though helium is one atomic element it contains within its structure or formation two atoms.

    DwayneD.L.Rabon
     
  15. ULTRA Realistically Surreal Registered Senior Member

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    Your confidence is not shared by the Japanese government who have been considering widening the evacuation zone. They are also unhappy with TEPCO and how they've handled the crisis.
    Arthur. The rainfall did not significantly alter the radiation in the sea. The outflow of radiation is such that close in it is not being diluted or decreasing significantly. Evidently radiation levels such as those on land should decrease naturally as the iodine decays and is not replaced with more. This is a natural process in is not down to any "improvement" in the situation. They have simply avoided it getting any worse.
     
  16. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

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    Actually the IAEA had suggested increasing it because of higher than recommended levels in Iatate Village, but the Japanese Gov said it wasn't necessary because the soil levels weren't the same as the levels people were exposed to (they were within the area where people were advised to stay indoors) and because the level was dropping. In any case, they are only talking about one area just to the NW of the plant and we've known for some time that area is in a hotter than normal band, so this is nothing new.

    You can argue about the rain, but it did happen and rain would cause the runoff to go up taking more radiation with it, and fresh water sits on top of the salt so that would also reduce mixing, so even though there was nothing reported happening at the reactors which would have caused that increase (the reactor pressures are all stable) we do know it rained that day because that was why they couldn't spray the grounds with a resin to lower movement of dust.

    Ultra, if the radiation is going down and not being replaced by any more from the reactor then it is indeed an improvement in the situation. How could you claim it is otherwise? Improvement is still improvement even if the underlying cause is natural.

    How you could say this Radiation levels is not an improvement is beyond me.

    The situation at the Reactors also continues to improve simply because they are remaining stable but their decay heat decreases each day thus their need for cooling is much less and the amount of time it would take for them to again have to release radioactive steam because of a new problem with cooling is so much longer.

    In addtion the reactor buildings now have power, they are pumping out the radioactive water from the basements and trenches near the buildings, they are bringing in more storage tanks for the water and building larger ones, they have means of delivering water to the SFPs and have switched to fresh water at the reactors and the pools and yet the number of exposed workers above 100 millisieverts remains steady, so they are also appear to be able to control the situation from a personnel exposure perspective as well.

    Of course the Govt is bitching at TEPCO, what else can they do to cover up how slow and inept they have been? The difference is TEPCO is a company and can only do what is allowed them or what they can buy. The Government has control of the regs and the Military and plenty of money and so they have much more flexibility but yet so far they appear to be mainly spectators/reporters.

    Arthur
     
  17. Kumar Registered Senior Member

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    1,990
    "Name: Hydrogen
    • Symbol: H
    • Atomic number: 1
    • Atomic weight: 1.00794


    : Helium
    • Symbol: He
    • Atomic number: 2
    • Atomic weight: 4.002602
    Name: Neon
    • Symbol: Ne
    • Atomic number: 10
    • Atomic weight: 20.1797 "

    Above is the basic details of H, He & Ne. Will it not be odd to take, H as one atom, He as 2 & Ne as 10, when atomic weight of He & Ne is not proportional to H(i.e. if He is equal to two atom & Ne to 10 atoms then atomoc weight of He & Ne two time & 10 times to H atomic weight, which is not?

    Whether Avogadro's law is based on numbers of atoms/molecules or by weight can be another thought?

    However, I am simply checking that if energy has mass and as mass can be settled, then avogadro's calculation should also account mass of energy--that energy which is relesed or absorbed from an atom/molecule. It is also anticipated that some mass loss occur on release of energy from an atom/molecule? If this is ok, that Avogadro calculation should also account as per E=mc2. Not so??
     
  18. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Explain the difference between these things, or else admit you know nothing about what you're talking about.

    This is complete nonsense. All readers are advised to ignore anything Dwayne has to say about chemistry from this point onwards.
     
  19. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks, but we really didn't need that advice......

    Nor do we limit it to Chemistry
     
  20. Kumar Registered Senior Member

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    1,990
    Probably, he is comparing by numbers of electrons, protons & netrons in three atoms. Can you tell about my question--if mass loss is there of atoms on relese of energy, if energy has mass and as mass can be settled, should Avogadra calculation also not account released energy mass or upto E=mc2 not just at atomic/molecular level?

    Regards.
     
  21. ULTRA Realistically Surreal Registered Senior Member

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    Kumar, Please will you stop encouraging Rabon. Everything he says he knows is literally made-up rubbish. It cannot teach you anything but falsehoods.
    Avagardo's number is a constant ie it never changes. the number is 6.022141527 × 10^23. The number of atoms in 1 mole.
    We mainly use it to work out the weights of elements in molar solutions. A molar solution is the atomic weight of a substance in a litre of water, we call this weight its' molarity.
    It has absolutely nothing to do with Fukujima. Nothing at all.

    Energy of an atom is e(energy)=m (Mass in g) x c squared (square of lightspeed)
    you can calculate the energy of any atom using this, or if you turn the equation around you can calculate the mass of the atom(s) causing the energy you measure.

    I'm getting pretty pissed off with Dwayne now, and I'll see him banned if he refuses to stop posting lies as fact. It's bloody dishonest.
     
  22. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Why, god why, do you keep talking to that Troll, talking to him means he wins, don't even respond his posts!
     
  23. ULTRA Realistically Surreal Registered Senior Member

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    Wrong! I'm afraid. Kumar actually thinks he's being taught science! Despite warning him, and Rabon, they continue to post garbage as facts. Kumar does actually want to try to learn. The best thing for Kumar would be to listen to us when we say Rabon is an idiot, but it just aint sinking in. We have to protect him from himself! and Rabon!

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    Edit* The only reason I didn't ask for Rabon to be banned before was because his posts are so stupid they're often very funny indeed.
     
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