Japanese solution?

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by universaldistress, Mar 15, 2011.

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  1. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Here you go green peace claims 60,000-140,000 dead from Chernoby[1]
    Yet 170,000 die ever year from coal, 300,000 from coal, oil and natural gas pollution combined.[2] And those specific figures I cited are only counting death and disease from air pollution, not climate change or mining deaths.

    [1]: http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/news/features/chernobyl-deaths-180406/
    [2]: http://www.green-blog.org/2008/06/1...icity-generation-kill-170000-people-annually/
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2011
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  3. Rocks Registered Member

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    While I made no argument for or against its safety in my statement, I think it's easy to say it's safe when it's someone else's child with the birth defects or sterile wife and not one's own.

    And for the record, my opinion on nuclear prior to this accident was that it was generally safe and I had little concern about meltdown or release, but my main concern was safe storage of the fuel rods piling up around the country. Now that is of even greater concern to me, and there doesn't seem to be anyone doing anything about it. I was also coming around to the idea that continued on-site pool storage of spent rods would be acceptable, but I'm sort of rethinking my position as I watch this unfold, and especially as reports of safety tests being faked at plants here. Safe or lucky so far? I don't have enough evidence to make a determination either way.
     
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  5. Skeptical Registered Senior Member

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    Who here is naive enough to believe a Greenpeace estimate?

    The International Atomic Energy Agency estimate for total deaths for Chernobyl, from all causes, was 2,500.
     
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  7. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    We all breath the same air, we all breath smog.

    Aside for putting them in caskets that are virtually indistrutable?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mHtOW-OBO4

    We could do reprocessing, that would reduce nuclear waste by ~90%

    I'm just saying even if we use those new-age-homeopathic-naturalistic-fallacy-kook's figures nuclear power still wins out over its conventional competitors!
     
  8. Rocks Registered Member

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    I don't see how this is relevant to what I said.

    I know a little something about those caskets and reprocessing. I live near here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Valley_Reprocessing_Plant (official site: http://www.wv.doe.gov/) and have done extensive hydrologic and other studies of the place. Reprocessing ends up creating a larger volume of waste by what it contaminates in the process, so I don't know where you get your ~90% figure. Reprocessing is basically picking the usable stuff out from the unusable stuff, nearly all of which are highly radioactive. The West Valley facility is also costing the state and federal govts a massive fortune and will continue to do so, even in their cheapest scenario which translates to kicking the problems down the road.
     
  9. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Its not some else who going to die.

    That is the actual mass and total radioactivity of radioactive isotopes its self, what has been contaminated is a whole different subject and is highly variable depending on what reprocessing technologies are used. And then finally we must ask how dangerous the final waste or contaminated materials are and for how long they will be. For example if we used fast neutron reactors and reprocessing we could consume all long-lived transuranic isotopes as fuel or in the fuel and thus the radioactive waste its self would have a half-life in the decades as most, no need for perpetual storage somewhere. A molten salt reactor would do reprocessing live using low level waste producing thorium as fuel, so reprocessing can be very useful and clean.

    Its more then that since even light water reactors "breed" more fuel from depleted uranium that is in the fuel. Without reprocessing there is a significant amount of unused fuel left, which means more mining of uranium and more waste. Finally those transuranics in the waste are the worse part of nuclear waste, they are the ones that last for millennia, and yet we could consume them even with today's technology.
     
  10. DwayneD.L.Rabon Registered Senior Member

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    999
    Well, A Soultion to JAPANS current problem at the Nuclear Reactor, requires a meathod of removing radaioactive water from bulidings nearby the main reactors so that new water can be added to the reactors redistributing heat, in such a manner that a cycle is created allowing even more new cooler water to be added.

    The simplest way is to vaporize the water with electricty and catch the Radioactive cesium at the positive anode(charge). The water and vapor is contained within the building. if the water is just run off water from when the spent fuel rod pool was mannually water for cool down during the intial stage of the emergency, then the cesium will be captured in one stage of vaporization. From which point only residue radaiation will exist, at a far lesser level than current.
    The buildings upper chambers which would be the main barrier of containment would only have to be sealed at cracks and door openings, all of which could be done from outside the building.

    A whole has to be drilled into each end of the building, one end for neagtive charge and one as postive. On the side of the building that is housing the postive charge a second whole will have to drilled, from this whole the cesium gas vapor is collected and stored in cool steel oil barrels.

    Most of the equipement within the facility used should be able to withstand 750 degree Celsius.

    If a static generator where used it would only require postive node, simular to a battery as long as the cesium remains as particles within the water they will migrate to the postive anode (Charge).

    Another choice would be to freeze the water in the building with Nitrogen, Also if the water is definitly caused by a leak from a tank the location of the leak can be frozen by nitrogen causing the ice to seal the location of the leak. this require getting exstending a long pipe to the leak point and pumping nitrogen to leak point.

    Since working on the grounds is apprently dangerous, running a bare cable accross the nuclear facility or other areas would give some directional controll of ions, and sheilding from radations in the area. it would allow some slow moving particle or atoms to be directed to one end of the Nuclear Facility.
    The high end defelecting strong radations is like a electric arch welder, several rates of current charge could be used. here is one 4.7 volts at 30,000 to 50,000 amps. for gammas.

    Does any body have a soultion for the manner in which the nuclear material will be moved from the spent fuel pool.

    DwayneD.L.Rabon
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2011
  11. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Actually I'm kind of worried about china, they are building a lot of nuclear plants, but they are also notorious for taking short cuts, bribing inspectors and contractors, that kind of thing, I hope their reactors don't start falling apart in the coming years, would really make a mess.
     
  12. Kumar Registered Senior Member

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    1,990
    A question;

    How radiation from reactors is accumulating in Japan? Can radiation accumulate in its form?

    Few tell that energy has mass. Is it mass of energy which is accumulating but energy just damaging but not accumulating?
     
  13. Kumar Registered Senior Member

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    1,990
    Sorry but I feel, atom bomb is more dangerous inspite of fact that much more people died from to non-nuclear bombs. Much more people would have died from other diseases than cancer but cancer is more horrible than other diseases.
     
  14. Kumar Registered Senior Member

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    1,990
    Too much can deviate mind to effect nature balances itself.
     
  15. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    The atomic bomb is meant to kill, Nuclear power is not, you can't compare the two.

    Cancer pretty high up there, but there are a variety of chemical poisons that could provide a more horrible death, Dimethylmercury for example, a slow horrible death over months as your brain turns to cheese. That reminds me, Transmissible spongiform encephalopathy, that another more horrible way to die.

    That some good :m: there?
     
  16. DwayneD.L.Rabon Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    999
    Well, Kumar
    Radiation accumulates because radioactive atoms release radiations repeatedly causing other atoms to become radioactive or to release radiation.
    Types of radiations that cause other normal atoms to release radiations are beta radiation, and x-rays. Types of radiation that cause other atoms to become radioactive are gamma radations and high velocity alpha particles and neutrons and protons.

    So when radioactive atoms get out of the reactors, they cause normal atoms to produce radiation, which then produce other radiations manily by x-ray emmission (really strong xrays can cause the emmission of low energy gamma rays). Because of this, radation can accumulate and even build up to the point where every thing within a area of a radioactive atom has a out of balance organization. Mainly from ionization,where normal electron chemical bonds are disturbed in that area.

    Beat Radaitions are stopped by about 2 inches(5cm) of wood, while traveling through that 2 inches of wood it causes atoms in the wood to release xrays,and also causes chemicals to break apart. the wood can not continue to live normally if it continues to get hit by radiation.
    Gamma are even stronger they can travel through about 2 ft of Lead.

    So in air and in soils and life forms a accumulation is seen mostly in x-ray emmissions which cause damage.

    I still am waiting to see how they plan to remove the radioactive material from the spent fuel pool.

    There is some great news, they have started producing a Gel resins that will be used to spray on the restricted area so that radioactive material that settles out of the air will not move about and seep into lower ground. this will make cleaning up much more easier.


    DwayneD.L.Rabon
     
  17. Kumar Registered Senior Member

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    1,990
    Thanks not it is clear to me. I think it is just chain reaction.

    If so, can we consider that since energy has mass or can also cause chain reactions, simply calculating substance/mass/matter presence in a mixture or solution by Avogadro's law will not be enough. Mass of energy(if it can settle/accumulate) & chain reactions produced by such mixture or solution shouls also be accounted, alongwith?
     
  18. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    24,690
    Actually the nuclear bomb is simply meant to destroy a much larger swath of infrastructure than a conventional explosive. The larger number of dead and dying enemy civilians is of course dismissed as unavoidable "collateral damage," but it's not the goal of war except in cases where the aggressor nation is losing its grip on the meaning of "civilization."

    If the younger generation doesn't find a way to end war (I'm ashamed of the two Baby Boomer Presidents who started three wars, maybe their kids will do better), I think you can expect to see more use of EMPs in future warfare, which destroy electronic infrastructure while causing minimal harm to organisms.
     
  19. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    When nuclear weapons were conceived it was the era of strategic bombing when nations like Germany, USA, Britain, Japan were trying to crush the moral of their enemies by bombing the shit out their cities or even in japan case dropping plague on them, killing was the primary goal! Kill the enemy until they are either dead or rendered submissive. Do not try to stick today's morals on warfare to it, if you tried you would not be able to explain the neutron bomb.

    EMPs would be great, but when have we used any?
     
  20. DwayneD.L.Rabon Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    999
    Well, Kumar

    The Mass of energy and its intereaction with mass such as protons and neutrons would be considered the chemical behavior of a atomic element.
    The mass of energy is in constant variation or change, meaning it changes faster then the energy of atomic protons and neutrons which changes less and is more stable in its formation. A given percentage or amount of energies mass is stable at given locations and enviroments or has a set pattern, because of this we have stable energy chemistry or electron chemistry that allows life to be possible and chemical reactions to be some what predictable. Currently Background electron energy is increasing in the northern hemisphere of our Planet, and so is increasing for Japan.

    The Static background energy for the Nuclear Facility where the last thermal tempiture reading was 100 degrees celsius, defines a static background energy of 825,059,224.8 coulumbs per second. Meaning that within a distance of 16,181.3 feet and exstending to 60194.7 feet that much energy is being moved in a direction to the Nuclear Facility for each reactor building. this eventually brings the radioactive mass to a equal balance.

    Within the background of all energy and mass, no given energy ever reacts or makes contact with any other energy.

    At the nuclear facility in Japan, currently their is the spread, or light of gamma ray radiation and radioactive atoms that presents a danger to workers trying to fix problems. The Gamma and radioactive atoms are in the air, the Gamma comes from radioactive atoms inside the spent fuel pool in each of the 4 reactor buildings and from radioactive atoms that have spread out accross the nuclear plant during the exsplosions and fires.
    The gamma rays that come from the reactor building had to travel through the concrete and other materials used to build the structure of the spent fuel pool, these gamma have lost energy and have changed thier direction many times from a straight line, so they are defracted gamma rays that have lost much of thier energy.
    The radioactive atoms that have floated out of the spent fuel pool during the fire and exsplosions have landed on the ground and on other buildings and surfaces, this area is where the workers work, these atoms also spread gamma rays but the gamma are not defracted by the concrete and other building structures. Because the gamma rays on the ground are not defracted or blocked they have lost very little energy and cause great damage to the workers. When they hit a worker they cause normal atoms in the workers body to become radioactive or make x-rays which distrub normal chemistry.

    A Soultion is required to protect worker and allow them to dismantle the Nuclear Facility. One way of doing this is to get a bare eletrical cable wire (a copper wire without covering) and run the wire across the length of the Nuclear Facility for about 2,400 feet. This cable then has to be lift to a given height above the ground, when electrical power is supplied to the wire it will create a Electrical Fluxs pushing the radioactive atoms that are in the air and that are floating out from each of the reactors to one side of the Nuclear Facility or away from the ground area where workers work.

    Since gamma rays are a problem when workers reach certain areas, they need tools that allow them to defract gamma rays such as rods or sheilds that generate enough repelling charge to push the gamma rays way from them.
    To defracted gamma rays in angular direction it requires at least 83 volts/coulumbs, to defract gammas to a 45 degree angle away from them they need at least 3,750 volts,coulumbs. This requires a tungsten cooper wire or high voltage wire at least.

    The atomic element Uranium will begin to show more paramagnetic activity in the next few days, changing from Zirconium phase to its Paramagnetic Phase on April 3rd or 4th.

    DwayneD.L.Rabon
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2011
  21. ULTRA Realistically Surreal Registered Senior Member

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    Ignore everything you've read (again). More nonsense and idiotic jammerings from the idiot Rabon. The danger to the workers is primerily the pools that have formed in the reactor basements that are dangerously radioactive. Unfortunately, the pumping equipment they need to use to cool the reactors with electric pumps are located down there. The company, TEPCO has largely failed in its plan to pump these out satisfactoraly. Japans' government is going to give them a kick up the backside soon. The reactors have leaked fission products into outside ditches, and they are now highly radioactive as well. Further, the reactors have leaked a huge amount of radiation into the sea, and TEPCO still has not come up with a proper plan.
    As for diffracted gamma rays, they are no less dangerous, just like light hitting a mirror, it just changes direction, and will not penetrate many metres of concrete cladding.
    The situation is extremely serious, and is not getting any better, All the work so far has just stopped it getting worse, and has largely failed.
     
  22. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

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    FALSE

    The situation is much better then it was.
    All reactor vessel pressures are stable and are being cooled by fresh water using permanent pumps.
    All cooling ponds are at reasonable temperature levels and pumping methods exist to add water as needed.
    No venting of the reactors is occurring.
    Power is back on at all the reactor sites.
    The water in the basement of the turbine buildings is being pumped out to either the condensor or the storage tanks.
    The water in the trenches is not going anywhere and will also be pumped into storage tanks.
    No one has been killed by the reactors.
    No one has been seriously injured by exposure to radiation.
    Radiation levels are mostly very low and the few hot spots continue to drop in the area around the plants

    http://www.mext.go.jp/component/english/__icsFiles/afieldfile/2011/03/31/1304325_3119.pdf

    Arthur
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2011
  23. ULTRA Realistically Surreal Registered Senior Member

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    Really Arthur? how is the plant any better now than on day 1, week 1 or, well anytime really? I's spewing out more radiation all the time. How is that better?
     
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