James R "Kaffir" is not an insult.

Discussion in 'Site Feedback' started by EmptyForceOfChi, Mar 2, 2011.

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  1. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    I suspect Signal is in delusion. A grand distraction, surely.
     
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  3. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    But only in Arabic. You are okay with being called a non-Muslim, a disbeliever in Islam, a rejector of Islamic theology. So its the language you object to. I believe that is called xenophobia.

    I suspect Geoff is suffering from the inability to actually think through his beliefs with any clarity. Its a chronic problem.

    If you note his constant attempts to deflect the topic to Maududi without addressing the points I agreed with him on kufr, you'll see why I refuse to induge his diversions into topics no one is addressing here

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  5. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    Well, I actually feel a bit better after having participated in this thread, because I used the opportunity to investigate my own discomfort with being accused of being a disbeliever and such.
     
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  7. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Thats good, I think everyone has the right to feel comfortable with their own opinions. I fervently recommend not giving a damn. People can't really offend you without your permission.

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  8. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Unkind words

    Rather, non-Muslim is innocuous, whereas kafir has marked negative connotations. This is not really in dispute. Even Muslim scholars seem to be discouraging the word! (Perhaps they also are xenophobes...the sadder in this case since they are, thereby, actually apparently afraid of themselves.

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    Crazy world, isn't it?)

    I see not everyone is so kind as they.

    I believe what you're engaging in would be called bigotry, or racism (since you introduced the unsucessful contrast earlier), or maybe even xenophobia. Like: actual, real xenophobia, via the use of a demeaning term.

    For shame, Sam. The ironic thing is that Islam does have philosophical space to avoid the term, seemingly. There's no need for it. Do you follow?

    ********************************************************************************************

    Now, onto your source: you are refusing to identify this individual further, is that right?

    Shall I just conclude falsification, and then fill in the blank?
     
  9. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    Sure. But are theists not in a special group?

    I mean, once a person makes some kind of reference between themselves and God, they can't be treated like "just another person" anymore (ie. ignored and such), as that reference gives them a special place, a known or at least declared relation to The Supreme Being - and that is not something to take lightly.
     
  10. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Sure why not? Its not like you actually addressed any issue in the quoted segment. Make it up as you go along, why not? Which part should we consider falsified? My response to quinong? Since it wasn't addressed to you in the first place, thats fine.

    That sounds like the - you are special because you are an individual, just like everyone else - argument to me.
     
  11. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Speaking of false: that's false too. :shrug:

    Er: because it's considered poor or fraudulent debating?

    Your references. Or else answer this very simple question: what is Maududi's first name? It's a guy, since you refer to it as "him", but for some reason it sounds like you know exactly who it is and are afraid of identifying him further. Why?
     
  12. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Uh, thought personal insults were against forum rules? We're big on that now, or so some mods have told me.
     
  13. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    To me, it doesn't sound like that at all.

    My experience is that theists have almost always been considered a special group (usually to mean that they can get away with all kinds of shit, while the "regular folk" need to take responsibility for their own actions).
     
  14. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    The name is irrelevant because I am expressing my opinion of an opinion. Perhaps this is difficult for you to comprehend but you cannot falsify my opinion since it is my opinion. As clearly expressed in the post where I responded to a clear question by quinsong on a topic of theological opinions, there is the mainstream opinion of what constitutes the process of being a Muslim. And then there is my opinion, which is reflected in these words by some random chap.

    There is no "debate" here. I am merely offering an opinion.

    But do carry on flapping, its most entertaining.

    Strangely enough, that sounds exactly like my experience with men.

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    [even here on sciforums]
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2011
  15. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Who likes cats?

    Oh? Are you sure?

    Ah well. I think my amusement has gone on sufficiently. Let's let the cat out of the bag, shall we?

    The Mawdudi or Maududi you're referring to is

    The question is: why is this guy so special? One might ask: why are you making such a big deal out of this, Geoff?

    Oh dear. Sort of a call for offensive jihad. Nice. Sam...you're not following a effective neo-Nazi, are you?

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    Oh. You don't follow Maududi then? Have I mistaken you?
     
  16. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    On reflection, I do have to ask: have I got your connection with this fellow wrongly? I realize now that, frankly, it is a bit easy to locate some random text on the internet and insert it into the conversation. I expect it was just an accidental mention?
     
  17. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Amazing! How completely irrelevant to my response to quinsong!

    Here is another quote from another source which I completely agree with:

    "Propaganda works on the general public from the standpoint of an idea and makes them ripe for the victory of this idea"

    Don't look now but it was ADOLF HITLER

    /swoons

    Now back on topic.

    Do you have anything to say on the quoted text from Fitna-e-Takfir in my post to quinsong?

    Not at all, it was quite deliberate. I copy pasted it from the original discussion on takfir and Maududi is one of the few people who has written on it in a way that makes sense to me. He was traumatised by the partition of course, having lost his home and country and behaved much as minorities displaced by political violence do. Like Allama Iqbal you can see the clear change in their opinions pre and post partition

    All of which is completely irrelevant here.
     
  18. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    In Dutch "kaffer" is as much an insult as, for instance, "idiot" or "dumb fuck" is in English.

    Edit: We also have a verb "uitkafferen" which means "to verbally abuse (someone)".
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2011
  19. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Good point. So the Maududi quote was just some random chap that you just found, and don't read much about.
     
  20. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Cat's Maududi

    Nice scramble. That post changed three times in as many minutes, I think.

    Anyway, there's no reason to keep the forums in suspense any longer. You've had more than a fleeting association with this 'random chap on the internet':




    In that last one, you link to here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abul_Ala_Maududi

    Which is the Wiki webpage, which I'm willing to bet actually mentioned some of his thoughts on the whole kufr/kafir thing.

    So you seem pretty invested in this one random bloke off the intertubes.

    Now, I note at one point you do actually say that you disagree with much of his teachings. Hey, great! Except that Maududi's teachings on kufr/kaffir jive perfectly with how great an Islamic state would be, and how the nasty kafir would be suppressed because they're evil, and that those very definitions - and the negativity that go with them - are central to the idea. And, while you were happy to give out his details previously, this time you shied away from your investiture in this guy's philosophy. I mean, it's a level of dishonesty I hadn't reckoned on, and I discovered it when I did a small bit of investigation after your off-hand cite.

    Now, I could suppose you were very stupid, and just didn't i) get Maududi's central tenets, or ii) forgot that you cited him several times already. Yet, I don't agree with either of these. Which leaves something else.
     
  21. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    So what is the argument here, exactly? Do you have any argument regarding the parts of his writings I stated that I agree with? All of his writings which I have quoted are from the same source, so I am baffled about what your POV is. That if I agree with his opinion on takfir I MUST agree with his opinion on everything else? I don't even agree with everything Bells says and we are pretty much in harmony on a wide variety of issues.

    I would say rather that precisely because he is so fiendishly conservative on so many issues, his opinion on takfir holds much more weight for its moderation, especially since he was in a position of political authority as well. Wouldn't you?
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2011
  22. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    So you agree with his definitions, but not as they're applied? There's little fascist/Nazi elements all over the webpage you like to cite from.

    So unbelief = error. Okay. Completely non-judgmental.

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    And you really have no other source to draw your distinction from? What exactly is your differentiation from Maududi's philosophy (this 'random chap'), exactly? And how far does your dishonesty go?
     
  23. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I think you're confusing two separate issues. I doubt you read quinsongs question which is why you continue to make a fool of yourself.

    hint: what is the definiton of those that believe in the Islamic God but do not have the ability to understand the Islamic God?

    Now go back and read my response to it.
     
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