I've had it with the B&E Moderator calling me a liar

Discussion in 'SF Open Government' started by adoucette, Mar 18, 2012.

  1. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,232
    Address what detail? There has been a host of words posted. None of them have even the appearance of a lie on adoucette's part. So what is it you want me to address? It is not practical to go through every word, sentence, paragraph and post and say "No, this doesn't look like a lie to me."

    Why can't you just point me to the precise instant which you believe constitues a lie. As it is it is looking more and more as if you will not do so, because there is no such instance.
     
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  3. RealityCheck Banned Banned

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    Please understand, I am not 'taking sides' in any way shape or form. I am merely trying to balance the discussion. For example, James R, in clarifying his intention/meaning in some posts of his own, he admitted (quite honestly, may I say, and Kudos to him for it) that sometimes his intention/post is only 'in jest' or 'to get people to think' etc etc, and that hence his own posts are also sometimes not as clear as demanded by some/him of adoucette's posts. And so we had a sort of 'what's good for the goose is even more good for the gander' situation. Basically, if an admin/mod should be given the opportunity of clarifying before coming down on him like a ton of bricks with 'liar' etc accusations/reportings, then why should not the same courtesy be extended to adoucette if James/others think his posts are not clear at first blush? In fact, the onus is on a mod/admin more than an ordinary poster to make sure he is perfectly clear from the outset, since any misinterpretation of a admin/mod post has much greater potential for member relations than ordinary posts. And in any case, the fact that the reportings which motivated James R to intervene may not have been all they were cracked up to be 'statistics wise'. Hence the greater caution which should be displayed before making admin/mod forays into what may be a misunderstanding which could be exacerbated by hasty/partially informed etc etc action where an admin/mod is effectively in an ascendant position and the recipient member may feel intimidated and so 'read' a threat in some glib remarks which may or may not have been a threat, but which may leave themselves open to such interpretation given the disparity of power/control and possible human dimension present at the time it happened.

    Like I said. Whatever the pros and cons of all that, it is now clarified between James R and adoucette, and BOTH of them have wanted to 'move on'.

    How about we let them and drop this; and let the mods/admin do what they need to do in peace and quiet from here on in.

    No 'aspersions' are intended to be cast by me, and I hope by anyone else, relating to all this.

    Let's learn and move on just as James R and adoucette have done with their issue/misunderstanding, hey? :

    Cheers and good luck!

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    Last edited: Mar 24, 2012
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  5. Bells Staff Member

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    I edited my post.. you'll see the irony when you read it.

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    My final edited post is at post #80, where I finalised my response to you about this whole subject..

    It goes to show the nature of the beast we are dealing with here.

    Consider this my final post in this thread.:m:

    And he was asked to clarify his position and instead of doing so, launched an attack.

    As a moderator, I read what people write. It is not in my job description to try to determine whether the person doesn't have time to edit (especially when I see that they have already edited their posts) and correct their "mistakes". I take things at face value as they are posted. I cannot speak for my colleagues, but I personally do not have time to go and PM every single member who posts "mistakes" to try to determine what exactly it is they are trying to say. Arthur was asked to clarify his statements and he failed to do so. How are we supposed to know that what you are thinking in your mind if it is not presented in what you post? How are we supposed to know if the two don't exactly match up?

    I have pretty much avoided this thread until now, and do you know why? Because as a moderator, we are supposed to have thick skin and we are supposed to take it on the chin when members like Adoucette call us liars. That is what we are told.. 'suck it up'. We are also apparently supposed not to question the honesty of members like Adoucette in return when they posts questionable things or say things that don't quite sound true.

    In short, this complaint about Billy is summed in one way"

    Adoucette: You are a liar Billy (numerous times)..

    Billy: I think you are lying Adoucette - about his responses to Michael's posts..

    Adoucette: How dare you call me a liar! How dare a moderator call me a liar..

    Rinse and repeat a few times.

    Billy's only mistake is to treat Adoucette exactly like Adoucette treated him.. Apparently what's good for the goose can never be good for the gander.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2012
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  7. RealityCheck Banned Banned

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    With respect, and absolutely no offence meant or any accusations of lying/bias etc being elevelled at you by me here at all, but perhaps you would go back and re-read what adoucette said in your quote. See where he said he is OFTEN in a rush and don't have time to edit etc?

    It seems a little hardsh to go from that to insinuating he should/would NEVER or ALWAYS go back etc etc, don't you think?

    We should not forget when on the internet that every post and every day is a different day in REAL life out here. What may be possible one day may not be possible the next. So, such a 'rigid reading' of that quote and using that 'rigid reading' to make a point which I cannot honestly agree with as justifying calling him a 'liar' on that as well, does not sit easily with my perspective as a disinterested observer.


    And as to the 'complaints' tendency. Well, the difference seems to be that others will 'complain at the drop of a hat' about adoucette, but they are miffed if HE eventually has enough of a continuing barrage of accusations and misunderstandings etc and finally makes a stand. At least that's what seems to come across to me. He is damned often and loudly, but on the rare occassion where he makes a stand because the admin/mods seem powerless/reluctant etc to address the issue evenhandedly or even at all, you now make him out to be 'the whinger'?

    Mate, I agree with you we should comment no further; which is why I trust you will be more circumspect with your own reading' of adoucette's words, as I exampled above?

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    Cheers!....and let's move on, everyone. Leave the admin/mods sort it out, hey?

    .

    PS: Anyhow, the sort of tit-for-tat mentality which spawns further possibilities for unintentional/intentional misunderstandings in order to 'win at all costs' is to be eschewed robustly by all. There is no need for such 'at all costs' approach here. James R and adoucette have indicated they want to move on, and we have no right to bring in further argument on either 'side' about their misunderstandings/actions etc. Agreed?

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    Last edited: Mar 24, 2012
  8. occidental Registered Senior Member

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    46
    Never once written a lie? Sounds good, except the facts dont support arthurs claims.

    It wasnt that long ago that James R told him this:
    http://sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2782573&postcount=129

    All because of this exchange between arthur and CaptBork:


    http://sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2781505&postcount=101

    Except CaptBork had never said anything about deorbiting the space station. And when he called out arthur on his lie, this is what arthur told him:

    http://sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2781732&postcount=111

    So just because captbork misunderstood arthurs positon on a mars base, he got accused of being a liar. And arthur then went on to retaliate by lying.

    Sure doesnt sound like someone that has a "personal rule to never knowingly lie", since thats exactly what he did, and then went on to defend it as his right.


    Clearly Arthur has earned his reputation.
     
  9. RealityCheck Banned Banned

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    800
    .

    A perfect demonstration where tit-for-tat mentality escalates things from misunderstandings to melodramas!

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    That is why request for clarification should be the FIRST RESORT in any complex or possibly innocently-misconstruable position/exchange.

    So all these dramas/problems could be easily avoided if the admin/mods made it CONSISTENT and OVERRIDING POLICY that all should request clarification (sometimes more than once) before accusing/reporting someone.

    Maybe then we could avoid giving the admin/mods all these easily preventable headaches which they could happily do without? Just a thought!

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  10. Balerion Banned Banned

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    I find it interesting that quadraphonics's two posts in this thread have been completely ignored by the moderators.
     
  11. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    31,445
    RealityCheck:

    adoucette's ongoing gripe with me here has nothing to do with any act of moderation of him by me. His gripe is that he thinks I unjustly threatened to ban him. In fact, I didn't moderate him at all in the thread in question: no official warnings, no ban, nothing. All I did was comment on a few silly statements he made. He got all offended about having mistakes pointed out, and so here we are.

    quadraphonics:

    Speaking of people with no sense of humour...
     
  12. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

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    You think that was an accurate account, that CaptBork had "just misunderstood my position"?

    Hardly.

    (note, Occidental is my sad little stalker, and if you do a search on Occidental's post you will find that almost every post he has made here is simply trying to find an error I've made, it's a carry over from another forum. http://www.sciforums.com/search.php?searchid=6596399&pp=25 )


    My posts were a deliberate and obvious attempt to get CptBork to quit claiming I supported positions when I had not done so.

    So let's review the ENTIRE exchange between CaptBork and I, shall we?

    Trippy brings up defunding the ISS and I reply with that the ISS is a necessary step for our eventual plans to go to Mars.

    CaptBork comes in with his first lie about what I've said and I call him on it:

    What I actually said many posts back:


    So no, no mention at all by me of what Congress would have done, only that I wouldn't have a problem with it.


    Next CaptBork brings up my comment on NASA's plans for eventually going to Mars.

    And CaptBork makes the point that just going to plant a flag on Mars would be very expensive and have no practical purpose.
    So I think I made my position pretty clear: I think we are over a decade away from even considering making going to Mars a goal for our space program.

    And to Bork's point about a mission to just plant a flag, I agree with him in that I say I could be an eventual supporter of that goal if our mission was NOT to just plant a flag.

    Indeed I spell out my thoughts about spending money on science:


    Notice no mention of going to Mars, but solving Earth's much more pressing problems of population and energy.

    This is what I get back:

    Of course I have never even remotely suggested that I thought that establishing a permanent base on Mars is a long-term, cost-effective goal with greater scientific benefits than a space telescope...

    So no Occidental, it was not just as you claimed "a misunderstanding".
    There is no basis at all for that statement from my posts.

    Which is why I took that piece and protested to him:


    Then I took the other claim and used it to make an OBVIOUS example to him of what this distortion was doing to the discussion:

    And it was OBVIOUS enough, and IMMEDIATE enough that he did get it.

    Which allowed me to make my point, that I wanted him to quit lying about what I was saying.

    Call it a bit of self moderation (since little actual moderation exists on this forum)

    So yeah, I purposely used an OBVIOUS distortion of what someone said to make a point to them to quit making gross distortions of what I was saying and I immediately admitted that fact, in the next post within the thread.

    Not quite what we are talking about here
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2012
  13. occidental Registered Senior Member

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    46
    We get it arthur, you think you have the right to lie in order to make your point. And youre doing it again.

    You say you "immediately admitted that fact, in the next post within the thread"? Again the facts dont agree with your version of reality. You made your post at 9:45pm, and 10 posts later the next day at 12:50pm you admitted it after you were called out on it. Hardly "immediate" or "the next post".

    http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=2781732#post2781732

    But Im sure you can find a way to explain how your lies are ok. Again.

    And its exactly the same thing. You wanted one example where you lied. I gave it to you and your response is to resort to personal attacks and lengthy convoluted reasons why its ok for you to lie, and then you lied some more.

    Is there really any question anymore that Arthur is a dishonest liar? He asked a question and he got his answer.
     
  14. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,232
    Good move. Walk away from the accusations you've levelled at me. This is what some members feel typifies the arrogance of moderators on this forum.

    Every six months or maybe every year the shit just gets too deep and it makes sense to take a break. Since I've never actually been missed I doubt it will have any effect. The sad thing is that it should.
     
  15. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    35,513
    Something about practicality

    Out of curiosity, you don't think that paragraph undermines your earlier determination?

    We'll look at that issue, then I'll answer the question. Compare, please, the implications of the following two statements:

    • "I am still waiting for a moderator or any member to cite a single instance in which adoucette lied. He's challenged several persons to do this and no one has yet succeeded. I'm just a simple lad, but that failure suggests something to me." (#54)

    • "It is not practical to go through every word, sentence, paragraph and post and say 'No, this doesn't look like a lie to me.'" (#81)

    In the first, you say you're still waiting for a single instance, suggest that people are unwilling to detail their claims, and "that failure suggests something to [you]".

    In the second, you say it's not practical for you to actually attend the record.

    It would seem, then, that if it's not practical for you to actually attend the record, your prior assessment of the content of that record is dubious.

    However—

    —you might also consider that all I really wanted was your acknowledgment, which you have provided, that you simply didn't read the claim before asserting your analysis. See, it's always hard to tell, unless someone comes out and says it, whether they just ignored something on the record, or read the record differently and for some reason not bothered to explain their dismissal of its content.

    And then I'll point you to #41, which addresses inaccurate statements Arthur made in this thread about what the historical record informs. His response at #44 is interesting, as something about goalposts goes here. To ensure I'm not being too obscure, then, here's the detail:

    Now, you'll note that Arthur made a specific claim—"[James] brought up his rank when he threatened to ban me"—that does not match up to the available record. And like I said, something goes here about goalposts. That is—

    Did you notice the change? Whereas Arthur previously claimed James brought up his rank via a ban threat, and the reality is that Arthur introduced James authority status, the later version changes the standard and declares an interpretive issue to be a matter of fact.

    Do you need some more background? See posts #22 and 24 for the setup to the point about bringing up rank. "Why," I asked in the former, "drag his rank into it?" Arthur's direct response to that was, "James is never just a fellow member unless you are also a moderator and he brought up his rank when he threatened to ban me."

    The first part of that is an interesting issue; we hear the complaint that people are inherently intimidated by the fact of our rank, yet, in truth, it doesn't seem to stop the the waves of sleight and silliness from breaking against our bulkheads. It's hard to accept that Adoucette is inherently intimidated by James' authority; after all, I also have the power to make his Sciforums existence absolute hell, or even cut it short, as justly or unjustly as anyone might wish to construe such an outcome, yet he has no problem slinging his dishonest "logical" manipulations in my direction.

    But the second part—"[James] brought up his rank when he threatened to ban [Arthur]"—is demonstrably false, according to the record. At which point we must pause to consider some abstract notion about goalposts.

    Then again, like you said ten hours after the exchange I've noted above—

    "I am still waiting for a moderator or any member to cite a single instance in which adoucette lied. He's challenged several persons to do this and no one has yet succeeded. I'm just a simple lad, but that failure suggests something to me."​

    —except, of course, something about practicality goes here, doesn't it?
     
  16. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

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    Nope little buddy.

    After he had lied about what I was saying twice in the thread I simply did the same thing to him to get him to stop, and when he objected, I admitted that I had done so and why I had done so and it worked, we went on to have a decent discussion with no more lying.

    Well till you reported this issue we had already resolved between us.

    (I was told to not do it by James but I pointed out that I'd tried his method and all he did was lock the thread, which I didn't want to happen this time, so I tried a more direct approach.)

    So as to your claim:

    CaptBork posts his "Hey I didn't say deborbit" on 07-16-11, 10:10 AM in post #106

    107 is Cosmic's post
    108 is Billvon's post
    109 is Wellwisher's post
    110 is CaptBork answering Wellwisher

    and like I said, MY VERY NEXT POST in the thread is post 111, where I tell him not to lie about what I'm posting and I won't lie about what he is posting.

    Seems you're wrong again Occidental.
     
  17. RealityCheck Banned Banned

    Messages:
    800
    That's right mate. I saw your clarification of the misunderstanding. That is why I have already characterised it as a misunderstanding. That is why I said that both you and adoucette obviously wish to move on from that misunderstanding and that we should leave the rest of the issues raised in this thread to the admin/mods to sort out amongst them in peace without any further comments from us which will only prolong the unnecessary since you admin/mods have all the information you need to do in order to make this place a better place for having had this discussion however it began.

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    A great site, really. An even greater site for having had these issues 'aired' out in the open. We're all grownups, so we can learn and move on to bigger and better things without lingering rancour or grudges, hey!

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    Cheers, James R, everyone, and good luck to you admin/mods.....a thankless job sometimes, hey?....so....and I think I speak for most if not all here.....THANKS for all your efforts and responses trying to sort all this out as best as humanly possible! I just hope we all can now leave you all in peace to get on with it, hey!

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    Last edited: Mar 24, 2012
  18. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

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    And that statement is correct.

    He did bring up his rank when he threatened to ban me.

    No I didn't later introduce an "interpretive issue"

    YOU brought this issue up to start with with YOUR assertion that:

    He addressed you as a fellow member. Why drag his rank into it?


    So from my FIRST response to you I clarified why James is never just a felllow member and then I added WHEN he brought up his rank.

    But I've never agreed with you that James ever addressed me as a fellow member.

    Which is the point you keep missing.

    And in this specific case, when James starts out his first post with: "What's wrong with you?" and ends it with "are you on something?" he is most clearly announcing that he is there as a moderator and NOT as you claim, a fellow member.

    Posting as a fellow member he would have not flaunted forum rules and simply asked me what I meant by that post.

    But the FACT is Tiassa, that James has already said he was there as a moderator responding to a complaint of the previous post.

    What you are apparently trying to claim I said was something like: that James was the FIRST to officially mention his status as a moderator when he threatened to ban me

    Which is of course NOT what I wrote, was it?

    And once more I have point out that so far the only BLATANT lie that has been told in this thread was by you.

    I find it hilarious that you and all the other moderators continue to ignore this blatant lie (in the original post it was just a mistake, but since you have been shown your mistake, your repeating it now is simply spreading misinformation via spreading falsehoods).


    Because you've been shown clearly, with links and such, that you are WRONG.

    The US in 2011 was NOT a net exporter of OIL.

    So I'm curious Tiassa, are you ever going to admit that you were wrong and apologize for spreading lies about me redefining terms just because you didn't understand them?

    Because until you do, your credibility is zilch.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2012
  19. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

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    Friggin amazing Bells.

    I never wrote that "I rarely every rereads and edits his posts.

    Why is it that you changed "Don't often have time to" to "Rarely" in every one of your parapharsing of my statement?

    Do you honestly think they mean the same thing?

    Clearly they don't.

    What I wrote:

    I'm often in a rush and don't have time to reread and edit and make sure that I footnote my responses.

    So Bells what that means is that WHEN I'm in a rush I don't have time to reread and edit my posts.

    But, that is clearly not the same as saying I rarely reread and edit my posts.

    In fact I almost always reread and edit my posts whenever I have the time to do so.

    But often I don't have time to do so, or at least do so right away, but that isn't the same as rarely.

    So WHO is being dishonest here Bells?
     
  20. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,232
    For fucks sake Tiassa. This is ridiculous. I read the whole frigging thread. I could see no instance where evidence of lying was presented. Then I am told - I paraphrase what was said - "No, no, there are is a clear incident given." Since I didn't see that the first time then all I am asking is that you point out where this frigging incident is so I can look at it again. Is that so frigging hard?

    No. Absolute balls. I have read the entire thread. I do not see where an assertion of lying is made that stands up. I have not acknowledged that I have not read the claim,. If the claim is in this thread I have read it, but it did not appear to be a valid claim.

    I am fucking incensed at this. I expect a fucking retraction. This is character assassination. I'm disgusted by the complacent arrogance on exhibit here.

    Tell you what, forget the retraction. Enough really is enough.
     
  21. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    31,445
    adoucette:

    Yes, little buddy. occidental linked to the thread in question.

    You don't get to invent your own facts, adoucette.

    For somebody complaining about lies being told, don't you think you're being just a bit hypocritical?
     
  22. Arioch Valued Senior Member

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    2,274
    @James --

    Of course he's hypocritical, he is human after all. However I doubt that Adoucette ever thinks that of himself though.
     
  23. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

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    13,877
    Adoucette ... I'm just going to put my $.02 in here...

    Perhaps nobody would call you a liar if you never lied... but let me ask this - can you claim to have never once uttered an untrue word?
     

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