You’re talking about such superficial aspects when in reality it is way more complex. What thrives this man, whom you accuse of having ultimate control? Face it buddy, he’s just a man in a position. A man in a position that in no way shed light to his inner thoughts. Position does not predict person’s mental capabilities. What about the transient effects of the social environment? You speak as if there is a master plan in action, as if this man (whom you identify with yourself, I’m sure) can alter reality by a whim. It really is a matter of interacting in a contiguous space shared by many, a space that contains preferences and attributes that affect you, the other, and the one watching. It’s not a question about ownership or power, as I already said. You can’t function when you’re too scared to let go. Face it yank, material concepts matter very little in comparison with conscious social architectures inhabited by individuals, interests and establishments. “I give you an apple”... The focus is not in the fucking apple, per se.
Nice picture Xev. I chortled. Rebelling against nature sometimes produces questionable situations. But she often returns with a pitchfork. Is Wanderer an advocate of socialism? I wonder. Given his fear of human institutions and glorification of the independent, selfish man, I would guess not. But considering his weird characterization of ownership, perhaps. PERKELE... what the hell are you talking about? Very bad sentence. Do you mean what drives the man? Does it matter? Another bad sentence. "position does not predict mental capabilities"... What? I only said that insofar as the entity is being made or used, or controlled at all, the 'owner' is supposedly the one in charge. That doesn't mean he can alter reality. It also doesn't mean that someone can't steal (or take away control) his things, and make them 'his own'. Then again, there's a difference between that and legal ownership. You see, concepts were meant to be used. Of course you are still using the concept in a way, but you're twisting it into something that better suits your needs. You need to communicate in proper English for me to understand. It makes things so much easier. Who can't function? Scared to let what go? What? What am I doing? And what is this 'other'? why are we being watched in this 'contiguous space'? Sounds creepy. ..... Does it strike you as a mere coincidence, that the man who lives in one house also 'owns' it, or makes monthly payments to another man? Or, that 'people' like to 'make' things, and then they like to 'sell' them to 'other' 'people'? What would you rather we do? Yeah, it is that simple. You don't even need to think about it, it's that simple.
Awesome. :m: Ahh, but I see you've improved it slightly since your last post. So I must be making some sort of impression. And no, I really couldn't figure out what you were saying. To simplify things, you might try responding to a single one of my statements. For example, I'll give you this: "Ownership is the essence of human 'creation'. Or else the 'individual' is owned by society." -Bob Here, our motives might be 'owned' in the sense that our creative faculties are put into service of others, or the state, without our express consent. Legal ownership just says that by law, you have the right to use and control, above all others. That's all. What was the concept of ownership created to be used for, then? I agree. Why does interacting in a social world negate ownership, as I defined it? The centipede was happy, quite Until the frog in fun, Asked, which leg comes after which? This raised his mind to such a pitch, He lay distracted in a ditch considering how to run. I see that you've fit me well into WANDERER's stereotype. Feel the hate flowing through you. Hate me. Do it... it makes you feel good! Objectify me! I'm guessing you haven't broken into your hash yet.
Xev, I'm not sure what is going on in that picture, but you do know that everything can't be aesthetically pleasing. Something can be aesthetically revolting and still be natural, and positive. I think there are a lot of situations on this planet that we are not qualified to generalize about.
Ownership is an absurd concept. Whenever you unleash a yawper, you shoot yourself in the foot with your ownership statement. And as you tend to talk about concrete objects, it’s so obvious that you don’t even have to say it. You’re saying that ownership defines individuality? That’s utter bullshit bobby. Owning assets, property, material etc... Are all unaffiliated with individuality, they are external presentations of worth, but in no way connected with the metaphysical aspects of self. You posses a right to own shit, which is presented to you by external authorities; now does that mean that you disregard social interactions, contacts, codes of conduct? No it does not. Ownership is pretty goddamn inane; it’s just a granted feature and by advocating it you become superficial. Like I said, you bring material aspects into a conversation about theories and models. It was created for scared little people like you, “oh my PHHFGRGRG, they’re taking my shit!”, you see? When everyone functions properly in shared social environment, the purpose of ‘ownership’ becomes aimless. You too, What fucking stereotypes? You are the stool sample that started quoting me off focus which pisses me off.
-Bob- We'll see. What Varg Vikernes calls a "sheep in wolf's clothing" I'd suspect him of some odd anarcho-communist crap, the sort of very earnest sort of idea that's developed whilst socializing at punk concerts. It's too fun to watch Wanderer, who insults people based on his idea of their looks and social skill, get up and yell about the sheeple. "I'm not a sheeple! Look at the products I buy, why I'm a veritable ram! My gym membership and my truck prove this! Ha ha, you nerd. I've spent enough money on protein shakes and Cialis to represent the true unfettered masculine spirit! Watch me bully intellectuals to prove it!" Reminds me of a kid I knew once, Ian. Ian thought it was fun to pick on girls who stood at the edges of the social circle. One day, Ian made fun of a little girl named Xev because she'd done too well on a reading test. I'm sure this made him feel very significant. Next thing Ian knew, little Xev was pounding his face into the muddy ground until her teacher pulled her away. Nobody lacks a place. Even "rebels" Perkele: Depending on your idea of functioning properly, but I don't know of any empire or nation-state in the past 6000 years that lacked some idea of private property. Ownership is about relation and what you can control. This is an apple. It's my apple because if you take it, I fuck you up. Eventually we come to the truce where if you don't take my apple, I don't take yours, and if someone tries to take our apples, we both fuck them up. Then we have laws and everything gets more abstract. We didn't really have capitalism until the high middle ages because until then, we had a different idea of property. Not nonexistent, but different. Now you don't take people's apples because "they have an inherent right to their apple since blah blah blah". Still it serves a purpose, if you consider industrial development to be at all a useful thing. It's about the structure. But we're basically saying the same thing.
And this is what happens to people that rebel against the wrong system for the wrong reasons - someone, or something (life?) beats their face into the ground. I liked your earlier explanation of being, neither a rebel, nor a conformist, but yourself. People that are proud of being rebellious for its own sake are often those who have escaped convention's chains by 5 or 6 percent and think that means something. A real "rebel" is more likely to be ashamed at how much they have to follow crowds just to exist in society.
cole gray: The problem is that everything is incorporated into the larger structure of society. Rebellion takes a lot of thought to be anything like honest criticism. Most of the time it's just someone who's a little skeptical realizing that people think it's cool when they "question authority" Wrong system? Wrong reasons? Hell, if I'm rebelling it's because someone's taken away my right to beat people up. I don't even mind conformists. I don't think the majority of humans evolved to be independent thinkers - no, we evolved to have a majority of 'conformists' and a smaller number of creative types. Somebody's got to scrub the floors. So doesn't get to me all that much. What really fucking pisses me off is when people who benefit from the arrangement, and take pride in being successful by social definitions, go and fucking play at being brooding, disenfranchised intellectuals.
I'm mildly confused by what seems like a sudden regression in wanderer. Whoa, scathing sarcasm aimed at bush and america, how cutting edge ...??? Why climb down a ladder? Did "duendy" or "truthseeker" provide a convincing argument while I wasn't watching? Or were you being sarcastic when I thought you were a genius too? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
cole grey Those are pretty words. Unfortunately they don’t mean anything. Everyone is being themselves. And if you conform or rebel is determined by how you relate to something while being yourself. Indifference is a form of resistance. Precisely. Xev That’s so sweet. Resistance has been incorporated into the system. That’s one reason I’ve acquired a new sciforums alias (Alter Ego) which I will use to spread conformity and passivity. Dr Lou Natic I’m touched by your concern my good Doctor. Sarcasm?! They wore me down with their ‘science’. No, you see my early childhood abuse caused a rift in my personality. Part of it turned into the loser, bitter, lonely Wanderer. The other turned into the more earthly, common sense, hillbilly Alter Ego. I recently decided to split the two by posting under different monikers for each. This to prevent any confusion, as the one expressed by you. So when I post as Wanderer I’ll be more brooding, serious, blabbing about social conformity, sheep, trends, personal observations and so on. When I post as Alter Ego I’ll be explaining my life story, talking about my love for the US of fuckin’ A and commenting about politics in general, confessing about my past child abuse and rape experiences and so on. . It wasn’t truthseeker or duendy it was –Bob- and Baron Max that inspired me. Those two are incredibly funny. I want to play. I think I’ve been taking this place a little too seriously; expecting more than was possible. I’ve come to my senses now. Thanks Alter Ego! Hope you can keep the two straight. I’ll be offended if you address me as Alter Ego when I’m posting as Wanderer or as Wanderer when posting as Alter Ego. Don’t be surprised if the two exchange remarks or PM’s either. I don’t know, figure it out. My Blog always remains honest. This place is a shooting gallery and an internet bar. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I’m revealing all this –as if you wouldn’t figure it out – because I like you.
Yeah, but won't someone else do it? It seems your services are wasted mocking hardline conservatives, it's too easy, which is why there are some 3000 softcocks in here competing for space on that bandwagon. You used to voice rarely held yet undeniably accurate viewpoints. Which made you not one of those guys who just badmouths Bush and thinks he's brilliant for it. Which is why it caught me off guard to see you making fun of "crazy bush's recklessness" and "ignorant conservative rednecks". You don't need to be doing that, "fagbot77", "love'n'peacegrrl", "nooilferblud" and "shit4brains" have got your back. You can now dig into subjects which require a mind. Or, even if you're just having fun, I would have expected you to select a more original victim to make fun of. Maoris, for example, are in dire need of derrision. Perhaps you have a bigger plan and I should shut up before I spoil it? I hope so. You screwed up with the alter ego too. You should have made it a female who agrees with you and gives you compliments. "Femmephura".
Dr Lou Natic No plan just fun. Maybe you are right. But I did make him into a confused, closet-homo, with a chip on his shoulder. Alter Ego’s actions will not affect Wanderer’s. When he post he’ll continue along the same lines as in the past. That’s why I wanted to separate the fun from the serious stuff. Wanderer, when he posts, will do so as he did. Alter Ego…will have fun mocking them.
Fair enough. You know, I wouldn't be surprised if this character of yours became very popular. Invert is trying to shut you down by the way. Check out the open government.
Please, take yourself seriously, for once, without being sentimental. Being a martyr may be fulfilling in a way, it fills one's life with some meaning -- but it is also dull and boring in a way that makes you want to scratch out your left eyes with a fork, so that at least something would happen. What happened to you, as far as I can tell, is this: The early childhood abuse left you to feel different than the rest of the world, in a way, it cut you off of it. You have become to see yourself as marked, stygamtized, *special* -- but special because of the abuse, not special because of your mathematical intellect or talent for playing piano. It wasn't the usual things that make one special that made you special. The experience of abuse also caused that you developed a high sense of justice and morality, a sense of what is noble and what is vile. But as it is in such cases, you connected your high morals and the experience of abuse in an unproductive and self-defeating manner: Since your high morality sprung from the experience of abuse, you have become to regard your high morals as something ill, as a reaction to abuse. You fell for the "Oh, you know, he has been abused as a child, this is why he is so held back" tripe -- indeed, this is what society promotes. You did not dare to believe that your high morals could be autonomous, you could not believe it, there was no reason to believe so. And certainly little or no support of this notion from the environment. At the same time, you also knew that the high morals you held (and still hold) are right, that there is nothing wrong with them, and that they are worthy to hold on to. Thus, you became to simultaneously hold two contradictory positions on your high morals. Trying to reconcile them somehow, this resulted in your cyncism, relativism, self-doubt, inconsistent behaviour (partly in accordance with your high morals, partly in opposition with them). It all comes from the wrong connection that you have made between the experience of abuse and your high morals. The connection that you have made (and many other people make as well) is the one that society enforces, the one of victimization. Society shuns all violence and all abuse, and stygmatizes both the abuser and the abused, both should be just "gone so that we can live peacefully in our little world without being disturbed by ugly images and ugly thoughts". This way, they also shun all violence and all the effects of all violence, no matter what they are. But there is a crucial mistake here in not recognizing the power violence can have. The experience of violence can lead to a clarity that is both scary and terrifying. It is in this clarity -- and when being physically overpowered, one has no choice but to experience this clarity -- that things "get set straight", it is from the experience of this clarity that you become ethically sensitive, and then develop a system of high morals. The experience of this clarity is such that it never goes away. Only that, being so unfortunately socially conditioned, all you can see and remember of the abuse, of the violence, is the numbness, the powerlessness, the insanity of the situation. And this is what haunts you and keeps you awake. You don't think of the clarity, you think only of the numbness, the powerlessness, the insanity. And you have done many, many things to erase these memories, to numb them down. But they stay. No, what stays is the clarity, not the violence. The violence is not something you could not bear. It is the clarity that the violence brought you that seems to be so unbearable. If you have been hurt this doesn't automatically make you a victim. Cry because you are hurt. It is right that one cries when hurt. But cry because you think you are a victim -- and you will make yourself a victim, and your hurt will remain, a numb, stupid and meaningless hurt.
The faggishness in this thread is unbearable. Only time I make a decision based on "sweet" is when it comes to screwing a cute boy. When it comes to society, it's perfectly appropriate to have a large number of submissive, dumb people. They make good cannon fodder and maids. Holy crap brainiac, you're capable of repeating my words back to me. That takes such intelligence. What else can you pass off as your own? Look wasteoid, it's not like you're saying anything new. Go find some cripple porn, jerk off, and come back when you're over the fact that you're an insignificant waste of skin.
wanderer says, "Hope you can keep the two straight. I’ll be offended if you address me as Alter Ego when I’m posting as Wanderer or as Wanderer when posting as Alter Ego. Don’t be surprised if the two exchange remarks or PM’s either. " Ok, I know anybody could say this, but I'm telling the truth - I knew this was going to happen. It sounds like a lot of work, but it's your life. If you argue with yourself in ways that are non-productive of some intelligent ideas I'm going to put alter-ego on ignore, I won't feel bad about shunning a construct. Also, most people are only being themselves to the extent that those "themselves" conform to acceptable societal standards, and they don't even know when they are following, leading, or abstaining from participation. What is more being oneself, not knowing you are conforming, or conforming while hating every minute of it? Xev, I also appreciate the people that can scrub the floors, because I would go brain-dead trying to do something like that. They have different skills than I do. If everyone on earth were like me or you it probably wouldn't work very well.
Xev- I had a similar experience back in the second grade. It ended up with me pounding some kids face into a schoolbus window until it was smeared with his blood. After that, and the incident where I was caught drawing realistic pictures of my schoolteacher naked and in bondage, they gave me happy pills. But I've been a pacifist ever since (unless you count violence to younger siblings), never really lost my cool. WANDERER- Thanks Wanderer. I think you're funny and cool too. I even want to be your friend. We can play together. Of course we might have our little disagreements here and there. But who's perfect, right? It doesn't mean we can't have fun debating and exchanging our views or the world. I mean, I understand what you're saying about the conflict between 'genes n memes'. Or whatever the fancy scientists are calling it these days. I just think that nature isn't going away like you said (unless someone deliberately changes it). So humans just have to figure out ways of living with her, but keeping her at a distance. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! no problem buddy. I got your back.
My first day of second grade i decided to go home. Of course the teacher wouldn't allow that and she grabbed me by the ear as i walked by, so I kicked her as hard as I could and ran off. I will obey authority. I will obey authority. I will obey authority.
So which is it? You the first or the second guy? No no, see- in some other thread you demean those not socially skilled. Exalting yourself in comparison- "check me out!! I get free drinks because I've mesmerized the sheeple at blah blah! Those forum chicks are social retards!" And here, you malign those just like you- the gracious capitalist- isn't that what your kind call a 'bourgeoisie'? So what are you? Do you even know? Dissent is a quiet affair, or it can be as noisy as you are, or it can be the manipulative guile of Iago. What it most certainly isn't is an obsession with it being authentic. This, the aegis of neurosis. Amusing, finding your type maligning the “bourgeoisie”. Ya'll don't like their material enslavement and torpidity and its been what- 100?500?- times now that you've mentioned their self-made penitentiaries. Well, you're all such busy little bees obsessed with being 'the real thing', stupid fucks, that your ego is your prison. You're all so engrossed that you're all torpid. You characters don't even have a personality. And no, boorish Rosseauean whining isn't personality. That’s boorish Rosseauean whining. and: Too funny! Those punished with a quick death were the enterprising and the genius- if Galileo had a percentage more balls, he'd have gone the way of Bruno. The "stupid and superficial", has then, like now, like always, been the base upon which civilization thrives- its controllable. The last thing it does is dissent- til threatened with hunger. Dunno. I've never seen so much time and effort spent on the human rights of prostitutes and "social refuse". That said, the homeless has as much right to health care as the tax payer in this democratic, capitalistic, ewwwww America sucks! hegemony you so despise where you love to think the ‘individual is nothing’. Would love to see everyone here catch a cold in Medieval Eurupe. No, on the African plane where you’d be shunted for being diseased. Bob: Hear, hear! Alan Greenspan has how many children again? Cole grey: *chuckle* You? Kick? A woman? Lies.
