Israeli coalition falls apart

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Adam, Oct 30, 2002.

  1. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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  3. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

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    Interestingly, labor leader Binyamin Ben-Eliezer, who held the position of Defense Minister in the coalition, recently said it would be political suicide to bring down the coalition with the intifada continuing, a U.S.-Iraqi war looming and the economy in deep trouble.

    The question now is whether the collapse of the current government will lead to a new, more right-leaning coalition under Mr. Sharon, or to new elections early next year. Sharon would face a formidable opponent in former prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who has criticized him for not being aggressive enough in fighting Palestinian terrorism. In any event, in the short term the political crisis is unlikely to moderate Israel's tough military policies toward the Palestinians who, as we all know, have been engaged in a violent revolt against Israeli rule for the last two years.

    Peace.

    __________________
    Youth is the first victim of war - the first fruit of peace.
    It takes 20 years or more of peace to make a man;
    it takes only 20 seconds of war to destroy him.
    • -- King Boudewijn I, King of Belgium (1934-1993)
     
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  5. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    I think it's pretty ionic that these settlements were thrown up in the interests of security, when really they only ended up increasing terrorism.

    The settlements also create a big problem for the Israeli government; most of the settlers on the west bank are religious extremists. While normally living in a non-extremist society would tend to dampen them, they seem to feed off each other and become crazier when they all live together in one place. The government is beginning to find its self in the position of not being able to control either the Arabs or their own settlers. The settlers are much more violently anti-arab than most Israelis - combine this with the fact that the being in the settlements places them in very close proximity to the Arabs, plus the fact the Arabs tend to hate the settlers more than anyone else, and you have a great recipe for violence.
     
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  7. GB-GIL Trans-global Senator Evilcheese, D-Iraq Registered Senior Member

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    Exactly.
     
  8. Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    What do people think would come about if Netanyahu wins an election in, around, 90 days??
     
  9. John MacNeil Registered Senior Member

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    What happens to the evil Israelis in the short term really is of no significance, except to the people who are unfortunate enough to be injured or die there. Whoever gets elected there will be just as bad as that war criminal they have running the place now. They would need a decent human being to run for office before any change in that evil government could even be contemplated.

    In reality, there is no future for the evil state that is Israel. The only thing that keeps them viable is the funding they receive from the U.S. corporate/government. In that way they are like South Vietnam was during the Vietnam war, totally reliant on the U.S.'s continued commitment, which, when the going gets tough, will evaporate like so much hot air, as the South Vietnamese found out to their everlasting horror. Governments and public opinion change, especially when information continues to show that the people who were entrusted with the welfare of the state were actually undermining the state in their quest for wealth and power.

    Enron and the rest of those corporate heists are emblematic of what corporate/america really is. The clowns in the White House are all part of that crooked gang. It's amazing there hasn't been a revolution in America to throw those bums out of power and into jail. The crooks in the White House realize that they are facing a perilous time. The attack on 9 11 set in motion a series of events that were unexpected for them and which led to the exposing and partial collapse of their scheme for stealing the monetary power from the American citizenry. If the attack on the World Trade Center never happened, Enron and Worldcom and the others would never have been found out and corporate/government would have continued on forever with their massive pyramid scheme. The extent of the legal mafia is almost unbelieveable, as is evidenced by all the companies which reported that they would redo their books and restate their earnings and debts. When you're a member of the crooks who are running America, that's all you have to do to avoid prosecution for your crimes of stealing billions of dollars and wrecking the retirement futures of millions of citizens. Do a little penmanship. But pity you if you're a person with a bag of marijuana because you'll be in jail so fast it'll make your head spin, if not bleed. The corporate/government days are numbered. One way or the other they are going to be replaced, and when they leave their evil associates who depend on them will be unprotected. That means that the days of tyrannical countries like Israel are numbered also, and it won't be so many days as people think.
     
  10. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

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    Do you have any other opinion - about anything?
     
  11. GB-GIL Trans-global Senator Evilcheese, D-Iraq Registered Senior Member

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    yes, why not search for his posts in this forum? there are plenty of issues he discusses.

    Oh, do you mean his very very very radical left views? Sometimes I laugh at them as paranoid, but then again, I ask myself, why am I laughing at him when this is all very possible and often the evidence actually points to it being the truth?
     
  12. Captain Canada Stranger in Town Registered Senior Member

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    Goofyfish:

    To be fair to John MacNeil I think he does present 'facts' but connects them in a rather spectacular way. I know it's always advantageous to have sources of information to assess, but I think you have to leave some room open for an opinioned, or opinionated view.

    In his post he argues that:

    The US supports the Israelis. True.

    Sharon is a criminal. Strong, but he has been charged with war crimes although not tried.

    The Bush administration is closely conected with corporates. True.

    It turns a blind eye to corporate fraud. Well, this is a reasonable opinion I would say given Bush's past record, though not a 'fact'.

    Corporate accounting practices are not to be trusted. Anywhere. After Enron, who would argue with that?

    The US government's approach to punishing narcotics users and corporate fraudsters is simply absurd when you consider who suffers from each crime. I think this is fair comment.

    What he does after that is make some leaps to connect these events. But when we argue motives we all do the same. We can use eividence to support and strengthen our arguments but we can also theorise and infer. I think John MacNeill's worldview slants his analysis where you favour hard evidence.

    I tend to be more sympathetic to your position, Goofyfish, but I think you are too quickly dismissing John MacNeill.

    One thing that concerns me about the world now is, somewhat contrarily to this debate, the mountains of information we have access to. This vast surge in information mena smuch that we see is false, some true and large amounts interpreted in wildly differing ways. Yes, perhaps this is a good thing in some ways, but it has in fact allowed our governments, in my opinion, to get away with more.

    For example conspiracy theories are now everywhere. Many (most I would say) are not well argued or supported and easy to dismiss. We all know that the term 'conspiracy' automatically makes us sceptical due to this experience. So our governments now dismiss anything that makes them uncomfortable as a conspiracy theory. Does this mean that conspiracies can no longer exist a priori?

    There's so much information out there how can we test it? How can we judge it? How do we evaluate it? How do we convince others that this one thing we have is true and not outlandish? How do we interpret US threats to invade Iraq? Do we leave it to the 'mainstream' press? Or the government?

    What has happened in the explosion of information technology is this: where once the information desert meant we sought a needle in barren ground, now we seek a needle amongst a stack of needles, half-needles, fake needles and pins.
     
  13. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

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    You are possibly correct; and I am, obviously, unable to present a subjective opinion on the matter. I might find myself giving more weight to John's posts if the majority did not contribute the reason to any of the world's ailments to the “evil U.S. corporate/government”.

    At the risk of sounding repetitive, anyone who has viewed my posts over time is aware that I do not viewed my government with fondness since the Carter administration. However, to repeatedly state something as a fact, when in truth it is supposition (no matter how well-founded it may seem), is not responsible. It can be especially detrimental to members who choose to accept broad statements as facts, without investigating on their own. I would equate it to accusing a person of a crime and insisting it it the truth merely because they had committed a crime in the past. Certainly they are suspect, but they are presumed innocent without proof.

    Peace.

    __________________
    Youth is the first victim of war - the first fruit of peace.
    It takes 20 years or more of peace to make a man;
    it takes only 20 seconds of war to destroy him.
    • -- King Boudewijn I, King of Belgium (1934-1993)
     
  14. John MacNeil Registered Senior Member

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    345
    Goofyfish, I appreciate how difficult it must be for people to have to hear comments that are derogatory of their corporate/government. But what I write is not in the least paranoid. If I was to write stuff like you are a 14 year veteran of the NSA who is based out of Camden, New Jersy, and that you are using your moderator position as a "beard" to deflect discussion away from the most sensitive subjects, then something like that could be construed as paranoid. But all I'm doing is commenting on real events and in most cases I use references to real evidence to back up my claims.

    I'm not alone on the left. There is a whole community devoted to exposing and trying to right the wrongs with which our world society is afflicted. A large contingent of them can be found at;

    www.commondreams.org

    You will find commentary there that is geared toward reality and not propaganda. You can also access all the major news networks, the government institutions in Washington, the UN, and hundreds of publications that deal with just about every issue under the sun. If you read Noam Chomsky, who has a site among the commentators listed on the right side of the website, you will learn about what is really going on and what has really been going on with U.S. corporate/government for the last century. The only way you can form a knowledgeable opinion is if you learn the truth. You won't learn the truth from the propaganda machine that is the mainstream media, which is owned 100 % by the corporate/government. If you express concern for the younger people who use this forum, then you should realize they would be far better off learning that there is a progressive movement and learning what they stand for so that they will be better educated about what position they will believe is more honorable. To deny them the opportunity to hear both side of the argument by denying there even is a progressive movement is censorship and will do them no good in the long term, especially since the progressive movement is rapidly spreading globally and is going to be the dominant ideology in the near future.
     
  15. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

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    It is apparent that you did not read my post, or if you did, you failed to comprehend my rather clear statement that "I do not viewed my government with fondness". I am a vocal critic of this and earlier administrations. The fact that you seem unable to grasp this, despite having me point it out directly to you on several occassions, makes additional conversation on the subject pointless.

    Peace.
     
  16. John MacNeil Registered Senior Member

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    Of course I read and understand your posts, goofyfish. And since we both profess a distrust of your corporate/government, perhaps you should clarify why you have lately been denegrating my posting? If I provide information and commentary that others can't, then that should be viewed as a plus for the discussion since it widens the horizon and increases the perspective.
     
  17. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

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    I have not belittled you posting. I have challenged you to support your accusations with evidence.
    I challenge you to provide factual evidence of this claim. As you cannot, you perhaps understand my statement earlier in this thread that, "I would equate it to accusing a person of a crime and insisting it is the truth merely because they had committed a crime in the past. Certainly they are suspect, but they are presumed innocent without proof." No. Whether it takes one hour or "55 years" for evidence to surface, you cannot state as fact what is merely supposition no matter how likely you feel it to be true. That is where we differ.
    Actually John, anyone can make unsupported accusations.

    Peace.

    __________________
    Youth is the first victim of war - the first fruit of peace.
    It takes 20 years or more of peace to make a man;
    it takes only 20 seconds of war to destroy him.
    • -- King Boudewijn I, King of Belgium (1934-1993)
     
  18. John MacNeil Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    345
    Well, goofyfish, you seem to be holding me to a standard that is far higher than the standard to which you hold the U.S. corporate/government. Currently, the U.S. has incarcerated several thousand individuals who they have not charged with any crime. They do not allow those individuals to have lawyers or the same "innocent until proven guilty" status that you say I should apply to the corporate/government. Since the corporate/government so blatantly disregards the statutes of it's own constitution, isn't that further confirmation that they are not behaving as a moral and honest government should behave? If they are not honest in their dealings with the citizens of the U.S., then they are not honest...period! Everything they do proves they are crooks.

    When I was stating that the U.S. corporate/government was sure to be involved in Senator Wellstone's death, that was stated as opinion, not fact. The phrasing should have made that obvious. Other posters and many other sources indicate that the belief is widespread throughout society. It is not like I was voicing an unheard of scenario.
     

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