Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict

Discussion in 'World Events' started by goofyfish, Jul 25, 2001.

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  1. aaa Registered Senior Member

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    what are you talking about? I gave you pictures and this is all you can say?
    I guess you don't want to talk about it, fine.

    can you show me a picture of an IDF soldier shooting a civillian?
    please, I wanna see it.

    and all this was done by...let me guess............ ISRAEL??
    yeah sure, why not, probably keeps Israel busy when its not shooting at civillians.
    you know what, I wanna see how any other country could handle this
    situation.
    so tell me, what would you do if you were Israel?
     
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  3. Undecided Banned Banned

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    No, I think probably a Palestinian sniper with an Israeli gun killed that girl.

    Why do you continually suspend reality? I mean I could talk nonsense too…really that was one of the most pathetic excuses for a cognitive human being I have seen in a while.

    They already kill Palestian children with their suicide bombs,

    Since when do they blow themselves up in Gaza against the very same people they are supposed to save. That’s an Israel tactic…

    so why wouldn't they shoot their own children to further their cause, she will be a martyr anyway, right?

    WE know that Israel has committed terrorist acts and blamed it on the Arabs…the Lavon affair for instance. How do we know that Israel is still not doing that? You have the M.Oon your side.

    No harm done, she goes to heaven, and the Palestinian terrorists get another propaganda tool.

    The only harm done here was to human dignity.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2004
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  5. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    "Since when do they blow themselves up in Gaza against the very same people they are supposed to save. That’s an Israel tactic…"
    -------
    Are you saying there are never any arab victims of Palestinian terrorism? That there were no muslims on those buses, for instance?
     
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  7. Undecided Banned Banned

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    Of course, but was that their entended target? There's a difference...
     
  8. Undecided Banned Banned

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    Too little too late:

    I am happy that the Israeli courts have finally done something about the obvious. How many times do we hear the “we don’t do that” nonsense for Zionists and Israeli’s? It is more then obvious that the IDF beats up, and abuses innocent people trying to cross the “border” into Israel. The problem is that this is more endemic then this one soldier, although his abuses must have been completely horrid, there are lesser abuses done by many border guards. Getting out a ghetto is never easy…

    Also we have more apartheidist policies done by the Israeli’s:

    This is no question apartheid, no matter what the justification maybe (no matter how fallacious), there is no way in a western democracy that Israel claims to be that people are racially segregated against because they aren’t “Jewish” (whatever that means in the Israeli context). Why do we more advanced truly western liberal democracies support a South African derivative state? Israel is lucky that she has so much power in the halls of power in the US that her deserved sanctions haven’t been instituted. The only problem for Israel that since the US’ economic power is sure to fade, who will pay her bills? Israel lacks what a state needs…legitimacy and as long as that eludes her, she will never be able to live in peace. Some more apartheidist policies of the Israeli state:

    Now I know that some will say that Amnesty international is an anti-Semitic organization (frankly the truth is anti-Semitic), but I doubt that Amnesty international hates the Hebrew language. The reality is that Israel is living a lie, a lie that she is a democracy, a lie that rights for all Israeli’s are the same, a lie that Arabs live side by side in equality in Israel. The racist, elitist, and self-destructive policies of Israel will guarantee her in the vault of historical mistakes, akin to East Germany, and the USSR, states founded on ideology not facts will wither and die eventually. You live by the sword so will you die by it…by suicide.
     
  9. Preacher_X Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    757
    well if you want to make "theories" then read about how Jerws helped in the Holocaust, how jews helped killing Jews and exiling them from Arabs lands etc. all to further their goals of Zionism.

    and the whole martyr thing is getting stupid now if Palestine is Islam the Israel is Jewish. and a basic thing for yhou if these people are purposefully killing Muslim girls then i dont think they believe ion the whole martyr thing do they as their not exactly what you would say "practising Muslim" are they?

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    and i dont think Palestinians can get their hadns on many Isreali sniper guns and other IDF weaopns such as the Gaul 5.56 Assualt rifle. Israel also use many other very powerful guns that can are powerful enough to shot body parts off

    (very graphic)

    http://www.alkhilafah.info/massacres/palestine/images/4a.jpg

    (sequence)
    http://www.alkhilafah.info/massacres/palestine/images/A.jpg

    http://www.alkhilafah.info/massacres/palestine/images/B.jpg

    http://www.alkhilafah.info/massacres/palestine/images/C.jpg

    http://www.alkhilafah.info/massacres/palestine/images/D.jpg

    http://www.alkhilafah.info/massacres/palestine/images/E.jpg
     
  10. Preacher_X Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    757
    denying everything is becming a stupid Zionist tactic now. those pictures are stupid one sided misleading pics. firstly the pics could be training exercises so peoole are gathering round, they could be propagand shots , they could be fake, perhaps the hills that the milatants were firing from were tyhe only places of safety from the advancing IDF sodleirs.

    are all the UN officals, foreign journalists, MPs and Polciticans,, Foreign peace actvists even Israelis themseleves are they all also lying human shields??? THEN WHY ARE THEY GETTING SHOT AND KILLED????

    your theory is tatally stupid... so Palestinians line up in their hundreds ready to stand in the middle of battlefields and not do anything and be killed and have their familes be killed whil standding around not even igting atleast.

    the same can be said for the Israeli "settelers" who stand around in the middle of battlefields.

    where are the human shield here???

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    Last edited: Sep 24, 2004
  11. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    I'm so unaffected by this one-sided propaganda against Israel in light of the carnage of suicide bombers. I concede there is a war between these people, and war is often brutal, what's your point? As long as Palestinians are determined to kill them, Israelis will make life miserable for them.
     
  12. Undecided Banned Banned

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    As long as Palestinians are determined to kill them, Israelis will make life miserable for them.

    Actually it was the other way around; you came into their land, and made their lives miserable. You invaded their regions, you stole (yes stole, not an empty propaganda tool), kicked people off their lands, destroyed over 175,000 Arab homes in "Democratic" Israel, do you expect peace? When the whole Zionist program is predicated on getting the Arabs out of their land, how can we expect them not to react?
     
  13. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    The arabs have still never left their land, sure, individuals left their plots, but they could move in any direction hundreds of miles and they would still be on "arab" land. The Jews were not invaders, but refugees. Just like the early european immigrants to America, they were poor people looking for a new life. Just like (some) arrogant Indians claiming everything in sight as their own, the arabs violently refused to accept change, and the Jews had no choice but a proactive defense. The Jews have learned not to depend on the political process or anyone but themselves to look after their welfare. The world has taught them this. The world refused to accept them after the Germans attempted genocide, even the United States left them on freighters, going from port to port looking for refuge. You don't have to wonder about why they chose their ancestral homeland to make a stand. It was bad enough for the Arabs to tacitly approve of the facists, the least they could do was accept UN partition after the greatest conflict the world has yet known was over. The whole arab program is predicated on removing infidels from large areas of the planet, and that's wrong.
     
  14. Preacher_X Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    757
    the Zionist program is to remove ALL non jews from all of Arabia and even further such as places which Israel stupidly claims as their such as kashmir.

    if that is true then please explain to me why there are so many Infidels in the islamic world and more specifcally why more Synagogues were built in the time of the Khilaf then at any other time.

    Arabs have ruled over nearly all lands that Jews/Other relugions have been so if it really is the Arab program to exterminate the infidel then why are theere so many infidel in:

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    thats a 15th century map so later on there was even more. also they could of pushed further in but didn't

    so what Arab program are you talking about

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    are you confused with the Israeli movement for the extermination of Gentiels from Ertez Israel and the "ararb program"???

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  15. Preacher_X Registered Senior Member

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    757
    well i think Undecided has answered you well enough

    but still...

    the exact same can be said the other way round to the Israelis. i can assure you that the Palestinians will not roll over and play dead to the Israelis, so get used to it.
     
  16. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    53,966
    Rediculous, Israel itself has many non-jewish citizens.


    In history, the arabs were not so intolerant as they are now, the move towards Islamofacism and Fundamentalism is recent. They can no longer rest on the laurels of their enlightened ancestors.
     
  17. Preacher_X Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    757
    no cos Islam has not changed for 1400 years so nothing has been added. however for the past 100 years the entire Islamic world has been severely corrupted, persecuted, ruled over and the people are suffering. the Islamic Khilifah has collapased, puppet dictators have replaced them. naturally somnething radical has to be done... terrorism. these peple happen to be Juslims so they will naturally use Islam to legitimize, support and encouirage and whil the majority of Muslims may ignore this there will always be a handful of people ready to do what they can to put things right.

    firstlry the Arabs who lived there origainally have been kicked out and there are 4 million refugees.

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    there are active legit politcal groups to get rid of the Arabs. Israel has racist marrage laws, Arabs are inferior (in reallity but not by law), and the majority of Israelis want ALL ARABS TO LEAVE ISRAEL

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    and then we have Zionism of course, crazy setterrs, racial hatred from the talmud, Torah + Old Testament,
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2004
  18. surenderer Registered Senior Member

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    879
    This is the best report that I have read on the Israel-Palestine crisis:


    http://g.msn.com/9SE/1?http://www.z...461744ac6ae341367c6798d67&POS=11&CM=WPU&CE=11




    From the article:



    What has U.S. policy been?

    U.S. military, economic, and diplomatic support has made possible the Israeli repression of the previous year and a half.

    Much of the weaponry Israel has been using in its attacks on Palestinians either was made in the United States (F-16s, attack helicopters, rockets, grenade launchers, Caterpillar bulldozers, airburst shells, M-40 ground launchers) or made in Israel with U.S. Department of Defense research and development funding (the Merkava tank).

    On March 26, 2001, the Security Council considered a resolution to establish an international presence in the Occupied Territories as a way to prevent human rights violations. The United States vetoed the resolution. Because Israel did not want the U.S. to get involved diplomatically, Washington did not name a special envoy to the region, General Zinni, until November 2001, more than a year after the Intifada began. Bush met four times with Sharon during the Intifada, never with Arafat. In February 2002, Vice President Cheney declared that Israel could "hang" Arafat.47




    God Bless the USA huh?
     
  19. Undecided Banned Banned

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    The arabs have still never left their land, sure, individuals left their plots, but they could move in any direction hundreds of miles and they would still be on "arab" land.

    But they wouldn't be on their land, its like telling me to leave where I live because there just happens to be a bunch of ppl 500km away who speak the same lanugage as I do. Why should I have to leave my ancestral home for a bunch of sinning,atheistic, reality repressing, sycophantic individuals, who have no connection to that land other then religion on which they reject, and who are actually ethnically Russian but say they have more of a claim to MY land then I do! Yes the sick retarded logic.

    The Jews were not invaders, but refugees. Just like the early european immigrants to America, they were poor people looking for a new life.

    It's not so much the fact that Zionists (not Jews, let's not defame the term) came to the land to seek refuge, that's not really the issue. The issue is how that transformed itself into creating a situation for the Palestinians, that you were in yourselves. You seem to forget this, that you are the new Romans by kicking ppl off their land on which they lived for thousands of years. Early Zionists claimed the land was empty, but when reality hit what did they do? Did they change their plans? No they wanted to kick all the ppl off their land for a "Hebrew Lebensraum".

    the arabs violently refused to accept change, and the Jews had no choice but a proactive defense.

    Who in their right minds not refuse to accept this? Who in their right mind would not cry foul at the fact that Zionists constituted around 35% of the population ,and less then 50% of the land yet got 15% more then their population granted them in 1947-48?

    The Jews have learned not to depend on the political process or anyone but themselves to look after their welfare.

    That's funny I thought it was Israel who is getting $12 billion a year from the US. Sorry but Israel cannot even sustain itself, that's what happens when you are living by the sword.

    You don't have to wonder about why they chose their ancestral homeland to make a stand.

    Their what? LOL please don't urinate anymore on basic human dignity then you have thus far. That is not your ancestral homeland because you are not a Jew, and a Jew is a religious person, we have already dealt with this. Now I know you Zionists LOVE to twist reality and make new truths, but sorry it ain't going to fly with me. And you know this, why are you even bothering to make yourself, and your atheist state look even more foolish then it already does?

    It was bad enough for the Arabs to tacitly approve of the facists, the least they could do was accept UN partition after the greatest conflict the world has yet known was over.

    Or Jabotsky offering Hitler actual physical assistence? Also you forget that FACT that 9,000 Palestinians fought for the British, and almost none fought for the Nazi's, if any. Are we to deny Indians their right to independence too because some token few fought for the nazi's and Japanese? If you are going to be an idiot about this, make it universal.

    The whole arab program is predicated on removing infidels from large areas of the planet, and that's wrong.

    Sorry that's Israel's policy...750,000 ppl expelled from their homes speak louder then your petty words.
     
  20. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    53,966
    Because, your arab brothers decided that an internationaly endorsed homeland for displaced "infidels" could not be tolerated. The Jewish claim was not as in "something claimed in a formal or legal manner, especially a tract of public land staked out by a miner or homesteader. ", since it is obvious such claims have no credibility with arabs, but rather, "To demand, ask for, or take as one's own or one's due". Jews felt, in that turbulent time, that they were owed a refuge free from persecution, even if they had to fight for it, which, in the beginning, was not the case.
    But the situation was not imperialistic, it was more analagous to the dividing of Germany into east and west. Couldn't you also say that in restricting Germans from half of their own country, they were "kicked out of the land on which they lived for thousands of years"? It was in the aftermath of a world war and many people had to make sacrifices, so suck it up and move on. And this displacement didn't happen in a vacuum, but in the context of mutual violence, which you so easily dismiss. The Palestinians created this situation for themselves through their xenophobia.
    You have to anticipate future immigration, not base the division of land of present circumstances.
    I never said Israel was MY homeland, I don't want to live there, my religious beliefs are irrelevant in this context. Jews are mostly religious, some not, just like Catholics or anyone else. The religious Jews have religious reasons for living in the birthplace of their religion, just like Mecca is sacred to muslims, the less religious couldn't care less, but they are still a part of the family, it wouldn't be right to have some kind of a religious litmus test in order to stay with your family, friends and relatives.
    I don't think anyone wants to deny the Palestinians their right to independence, that has never been the issue, but we have a complicated situation now, it must be considered within the context of historical events. If the Palestinians wanted to make make their case, and be diplomatic, they wouldn't have resorted to mob violence and military force. Once you do that, it changes everything. I may be in danger of losing the family farm due to non-payment of taxes, but once I shoot the tax collector, there is no further appeal.
    The Palestinian refugees left before the creation of the state of Israel, so it couldn't have been "Israel's policy", at the time there was no Israel! LOL
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2004
  21. Undecided Banned Banned

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    Because, your arab brothers decided that an internationaly endorsed homeland for displaced "infidels" could not be tolerated.

    I don’t have Arab brothers because I am not Arabic, but I digress. Firstly the problem with this statement is that it essentially does not deal with the issue. The issue is not 1948 its 1967, and Israel agreed to have the West Bank and Gaza not under her control. Now that Israel has illegally broken that cease fire agreement for over 30 years, and has illegally annexed their land, and their lives she can expect no peace.

    Jews felt, in that turbulent time, that they were owed a refuge free from persecution, even if they had to fight for it, which, in the beginning, was not the case.

    The problem is that this isn’t a Jewish experience, this is not a Jewish claim, many Jews have been vehemently opposed to the State of Israel and Zionism for good reason. Now the problem being that Jews have no homeland, and they are essentially a homeless people, and according to their own religion that is the way it should be until the appropriate time. So again this is predicated on something else, something that is uniquely non-Jewish, and since it is not Jewish it has not claim to the land which is Palestine.

    But the situation was not imperialistic, it was more analagous to the dividing of Germany into east and west.

    Oh what do you think dividing up the world was? You don’t think that was imperialistic? Soviet imperialism, vs. American imperialism was hot stuff after WWII. Much of the world’s messes were created in that time, from North and South Korea, to Israel/Palestine. The dividing up of Germany was a neo-imperialist measure taken by the victorious powers at the time.

    Couldn't you also say that in restricting Germans from half of their own country, they were "kicked out of the land on which they lived for thousands of years"?

    No because Germans were not forced out of their homes in the West, or in the East to either side. Now of course it was a separation of the same people from each other, same like the Arab states. You see right now you have given me the greatest ammo, for you see like the Germans the Arabs were separated by imperialism, and they originally wanted an Arabic state which was promised to them prior to the Balfour declaration (which made the Balfour declaration invalid). So the only reason why Israel exists is directly because of imperialism.

    And this displacement didn't happen in a vacuum, but in the context of mutual violence, which you so easily dismiss.

    There was no displacement in Germany...so think again.

    The Palestinians created this situation for themselves through their xenophobia.

    The Palestinians created nothing, Zionism created this situation it had to. How could the Palestinians create this situation? The Arab people in 1919 enormously rejected Zionism, and its plans. In 1948 most if not all Arabs rejected Zionism, yet we rejected these people’s right to self-determination. Sorry but this situation was created by a bunch of Eastern European zealots not Palestinians.

    You have to anticipate future immigration, not base the division of land of present circumstances.

    That’s nonsense, the reality on the ground was that Zionists owned little compared to that of the Arabs, and their population did not justify such a huge land grab at the time. If you wanted to get what you deserved you should have waited.

    I never said Israel was MY homeland, I don't want to live there, my religious beliefs are irrelevant in this context.

    You don’t have any religious beliefs so, all I consider you is a American.

    Jews are mostly religious, some not, just like Catholics or anyone else.

    Sorry but if you are a Catholic you have to believe in God and Jesus, if you are Jew the same deal (save Jesus). If not you are an atheist by definition.

    The religious Jews have religious reasons for living in the birthplace of their religion

    Oh they do, but they also have religious reasons of why not to go back.

    the less religious couldn't care less, but they are still a part of the family, it wouldn't be right to have some kind of a religious litmus test in order to stay with your family, friends and relatives.

    Sorry but the only reason why you are a family is because of your religion, reject that you aren’t family anymore no matter how much you may like to dream you are.

    I don't think anyone wants to deny the Palestinians their right to independence, that has never been the issue, but we have a complicated situation now, it must be considered within the context of historical events.
    Of course many Israeli’s want no such thing as an independent Palestinian state, and many want all Arabs expelled from Eretz Israel. So that’s nonsense, when you have these ideological freak peace will never happen.

    If the Palestinians wanted to make make their case, and be diplomatic, they wouldn't have resorted to mob violence and military force.

    They didn’t in the 90’s and what did they get out of it? Not much. Same goes for Israel, why is occupying, illegally colonizing land that is not hers, and building walls on another people’s land?

    The Palestinian refugees left before the creation of the state of Israel, so it couldn't have been "Israel's policy", at the time there was no Israel! LOL

    So laugh like an idiot…
     
  22. M-16 Registered Militant Registered Senior Member

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    165
    Palestinian kids see 'martyrs' as heroes

    Palestinian kids see 'martyrs' as heroes

    First Published 2004-03-29, Last Updated 2004-03-30 13:04:16

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    Palestinian minors living in Jabilya refugee camp have been raised on daily diet of Israeli army incursions, checkpoints.

    By Tangi Quemener - GAZA CITY

    Young Palestinians living in an atmosphere of constant violence are fascinated with becoming a "martyr," but are almost never involved in anti-Israeli attacks, child specialists said Sunday.

    The issue captured the spotlight last week when a 16-year-old Palestinian was caught trying to pass through an Israeli checkpoint near the West Bank city of Nablus.

    The arresting image of him standing alone with his hands up and the explosives strapped to his chest were splashed across the front-pages of Israeli and foreign newspapers.

    The incident stoked fears Palestinian youngsters are becoming increasingly caught up in the conflict with Israel.

    In the teeming Jabilya refugee camp just north of Gaza City, Yunis and Mohammed, two typical 13-year-olds, said they had no desire to become doctors or teachers when they grow up.

    "I want to be a martyr", they chimed.

    Some 52 percent of the 1.2 million inhabitants of this narrow strip of land abutting the Mediterranean are aged under 18.

    All of them have been raised on an almost daily diet of Israeli army incursions and checkpoints and clashes involving Palestinian militants.

    Palestinian rights groups say that around 600 minors have been killed in the violence which has engulfed Israel and the occupied territories since the start of the second intifada, or uprising, in September 2000.

    "The children are a product of their environment" and since the start of the intifada "no part of the Gaza Strip has been spared from violence," said Palestinian psychiatrist Iyad al-Sarraj.

    The trauma of growing up in what often resembles a war-zone is compounded by the poverty.

    More than 85 percent of people try to survive on less than two dollars a day, according to the World Bank. About half are believed to suffer from malnutrition.

    The scars left by witnessing the death of a loved one or the destruction of property during Israeli bombardments are slow to heal and many now show symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder.

    These children "are feverish, anguished and violent. They can no longer concentrate at school," said Sarraj whose center counsels some 4,000 children a year.

    The absence of a father, whether he has been imprisoned by the Israeli authorities or else killed in the violence, lies at the root of most the youngsters' troubles, the psychologist said.

    Bereft of a father figure, many are on the look-out for role models.

    With leaders of hardline groups such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad glorifying the "sacrifices" of suicide bombers, it is not hard to see how "martyrs" come to fill the gap.

    The most recent suicide attacks against Israel were carried out by two 17-year-olds who both died killing 10 Israelis two weeks ago at the southern port of Ashdod.

    But observers say the number of times young people have been recruited to carry out attacks on Israelis can be counted on one hand and leaders of armed factions say they do not support the idea of children joining the fight.

    "We have not actual proof of children being recruited" and both "Hamas and Islamic Jihad have rejected the participation of children in attacks," said Michael Bociurkiw, regional spokesman for the United Nations children's fund UNICEF.

    The organisation has tried to lighten the psychological suffering on young Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank with a series of initiatives. One of them features a free phone hotline to allow them to let off steam rather than become involved in protests that can often turn ugly.

    "The idea of this number is that before they think of throwing stones at Israeli tanks, they children can ring in and express their frustration", said Bociurkiw.

    Middle East Online
     
  23. M-16 Registered Militant Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    165
    This is for the Zionists and wannabe Zionists who post pictures of children dressed as Militants and holding weapons in DEMONSTRAITIONS.
     
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