Isn't religion a bit stupid?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by KennyJC, Apr 19, 2005.

  1. KennyJC Registered Senior Member

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    People are free to ignore or delete this thread.

    Aren't all Christians lunatics? I find it basically offensive that I walk into an hotel room and find this stupid book of the bible in the room.

    This only really happens in america where people seem to be stupid enough to buy into all of this; People who believe in a virgin birth more than they do evolution.

    I even read on this very forum that a person did not believe in multiple universes because the bible did not mention such a thing.

    I feel certain enough that most christians (having been brought up as one) are complete idiots. They seem absolute certain that this bible is the truth. Religion so far seems to not want to go forward. Religion is already set in stone.

    Well that is my opinion people. I feel like I am being opressed as a result of religion. I would like to hear why you think your way of life is the way life actually is. I dare you to even try to state the way the universe and humanity is without even being so subjective.

    I don't have a way with words people. But my mind is made up.
     
  2. scorpius a realist Valued Senior Member

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    1,211
    they are hypnotized=brainwashed, unable to think reasonably,logicaly..
    you see ,the religion stops the thinking mind
    in religion to question is heresy
    in science to question is required
    sad but true,
    Ive heard that the reason nature designed many people to be followers able to be controled mentaly is for the greater good of the human tribe
    www.atheists.org/Atheism/music.html
    yes you are.. :(
     
  3. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

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    As a student of anthropology and archaeology, I find religious texts such as the christian bible and it's components (the Pentateuch, Septuagint, J-document, P-document, etc.) fascinating. They can tell us much about the lifestyles and cultures of the period in the Near East and they can also give us insights into what people of the period felt was important with regard to values, taboos, rituals, etc.

    We can even get some wisdom from texts like the bible that are relevant in modernity, though, like all myths and legends, we can't take them literally. Of course there was no virgin birth (did Jesus have only 23 chromosomes?; not to mention that the virgin birth motif was in use long before judaic mythology adopted it), of course a flood didn't engulf the entire Earth; of course the Red Sea didn't part to allow Moses and his tribe to pass; of course Adam and Eve weren't actual people; etc. But each of these stories tells us much about the people of the period.
     
  4. WMA Registered Senior Member

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    Why are all believers in a monotheistic God lunatics? What grounds have you got for such an argument? The creationist theory/belief that God made man is as valid a concept as the Darwinian theory of evolution. Not sure why you find it "offensive" to find a bible, but I believe it is a bit biased in that it does not offer any books of the other 2 major Semetic religions [Judaism and Islam]. I've never heard of anyone finding a copy of the Tanakh or Qu'ran being found in a hotel, which I believe is unfair to practicioners of other religions. [Also, why limit it to Semetic religion at all? Shouldn't all people be catered for? Perhaps you are right in supposing there should be no religious books etc in hotel rooms

    Again, it can be asked, why is the concept of evolution more valid than say a virgin birth or belief in a being such as God?
    That is their belief, just as it is your belief [or may very well be] that there is such thing as multiple universes, and that God doesn't exist.
    Why do you tie Christiainity in so strongly with the word religion out of curiosity? Also, calling all Christians idiots makes you seem somewhat of a biggot. Just because you don't believe in God does not mean that others who do are idiots simply because they do not share your views on life or the universe. And I know plenty of Christians [and Muslims for that matters] who are interested in the fields of Science and are pursuing careers paths in the lines of Engineering etc, which in itself denotes a "want to go forward".

    Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but it's the way in which they put that opinion forward that shows what type of person they are. I find it somewhat perplexing that you chose to challange "religion" yet your primary focus was on Christianity.

    I didn't find your post too badly worded.
     
  5. JohnGalt Registered Senior Member

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    Not necessarily complete idiots, but the ones that aren't are lacking all forms of integrity. They bend the bible to fit reason(as opposed ot the lunatic idea of bending reason to fit the bible), completely distorting it's original, irrational context.

    I do not understand the bible in the hotel idea. Why shouldn't the Koran be there, or Atlas Shrugged, or The Origin of Species? They do have a mormon bible though-very interesting. Blew my mind. Still pointless.

    Multiple Universes isn't a good way to bring this up, as there is absolutely no(or close to no) way of proving this. Once the theory of multiple universes was created, we then had millions of theories, each equally valid, based upon this one theory. But, disbelieving it because of the bible is pointless.

    How did my social studies teacher put the church? When the catholic church(this is refering to the time just prior to Martin Luther) said jump, you would ask how high. Any other question(such as merely, why?) would get you shot/inquistioned. However, any form of protestant church is getting that way. They say jump, you ask how high.

    The futility of faith-All religion is based on faith, since that is what is required to believe God acts in our universe. But, what if the Islamic man has more faith in Allah(sorry, I guess that is Muslim) than the Christian has in God? Does he become right? What makes him wrong?
     
  6. WMA Registered Senior Member

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    43
    Allah is the God of all Islamic followers [to the best of my knowledge]. Even if its not the exact same name, the God is the same for Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. Yahweh = Allah = God

    To be a true believer, one must have 100% faith, therefor, the above question can be answered in two obvious ways [Perhaps 3]

    The first is that if the Islamic man has more faith than the Christian man, and the Islamic man has 100% faith/belief in his God, then he is technically more "correct" than the Christian man, because without 100% faith in God, the Christian man is not a true believer in God, the Islamic man on the other hand beleives in and knows God. On the other hand, if the Islamic man believes in God more than the Christian man, but not 100%, then their belief is to an extent equally as valid, because they are not believed to be true believers since there is doubt in their mind as the existance of God/Allah and as such their belief is rendered somewhat invalid until they achieve true belief or faith in the Lord. But in another way, since the Islamic man has more faith, it means he is closer at that point in time to knowing the full truth about God in a way, and that means that he is partially makes him more "right".


    Regards,
    WMA
     
  7. Joeman Eviiiiiiiil Clown Registered Senior Member

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    All evangelical Christians would disagree with you on that statement.

    Allah has no son. Christian God is trinity. A good way to insult Christians is to tell them they worship the same God as Muslims do.
     
  8. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

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    The theories of evolution can be tested and validated. The mythologies of creation and vigin birth are both untestable. Both are christian myths (originating in the early Judaic texts) that are borrowed from other, earlier cultures and aren't even original.

    Evolution is a fact. The mechanisms that drive it are explained in theory. But please, let this thread not become a evolution -vs- creation thread. There are several of those that exist already and, in each, the creation proponents have always failed to demonstrate any validity to the myth.

    Virgin birth is a myth. Pure and simple. If a real person did exist named Jesus and if Joseph and Mary also existed and they claimed Mary was a virgin, then she was lying. Perhaps she was raped by a Roman soldier or Joseph sowed his seed before planting season... both good reasons to lie in order to avoid being stoned to death. But it's more likely (assuming that Jesus actually existed) that later followers of the cult leader applied the Immaculate Conception motif in an attempt to increase credibility.
     
  9. WMA Registered Senior Member

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    Theory: abstract thought, Speculation
    Fact: the quality of being actual, Actuality
    Something cannot be actual if the "mechanisms that drive it are explained" by speculation. ;)


    Regards,
    WMA
     
  10. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

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    5,872
    Evolution occurs and has occurred in the past. The evidence is clear. The mechanisms that drive evolution are theoretical, but many are quite testable. Moreover, your definition of "theory" is flawed in that it isn't the scientific definition implied when one combines "theory" with "evolution." In that sense, a theory is a set of tested hypotheses that have, thus far, held up.

    I realize that you are probably not educated in the sciences, as evident by your assumption that a myth and a theory are equally valid, however, this is all very basic high school-level stuff.

    Again, lets not make this into a creation-evolution thread.
     
  11. WMA Registered Senior Member

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    You'd prefer rather to turn it into a veiled flame thread instead?
    I'm aware of what a theory is, and fyi I am in fact educated in the Sciences, and was placed in the yaer ahead of me Physics class for Year 12. Please don't continue to turn this thread into a veiled flame, I have made no such attempt at flamign you and ask that you show me the same curtesy in return. Thank you.


    Regards,
    WMA
     
  12. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    WMA, look past how you feel about SkinWalker's 'flames. It's the
    what he asserted a theory is that's imporant and consequentially
    correct.
     
  13. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

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    I'd say that the thread title, "Isn't religion a bit stupid?," isn't that veiled. Also, I wasn't "flaming" you, I was making an assumption that your willingness to equate the validity of a myth to that of a scientific theory as being indicative of a lack of science education. That you actually do have some education (high school?) in science and still consider biblical mythology as valid as science says something different alltogether.

    But staying on topic, religion is a bit stupid when an education is obtained. This isn't a slight on the cultures and beliefs of cultures of the world, but rather a criticism of those that claim to be educated yet cling to the superstition and mythology of their religious doctrines and dogmas. To do so requires that portions of empirical data be discarded in favor of myth. Certainly a stupid thing for an "educated" person to do.

    For those that lack education, however, religion makes perfect sense. It provides direction and explanation of the universe where knowledge is lacking in empirical observations of science. Those that haven't studied biology, geology, chemistry, etc. haven't the working knowledge of the mechanisms at play or why science can state with empiricism that the planet is approx. 4.5 billion years old instead of a mere 6,000.

    Religion as a whole, however, has outlived its usefulness in modern Western societies. Proper education can provide necessary explanations for life as we know it -not complete explanations (yet)- but certainly more effectively than religion. Moreover, secular governments do a better job of providing rules and guidelines for society as well as consequences for deviants: stoning to death unruly children or those that work on Sunday is no longer necessary. In societies where the largest polities are chiefdoms or bands, rules and regulations necessarily had to be created and enforced by religious authority, but the city-state and the nation-state concept eliminates the need for religion in this sense.

    The only real purpose religion can actually serve in modernity appears to be a method of offering hope to those that worry over their morality. What happens when we die? Where does the soul go? Does the soul exist? ecetera.
     
  14. KennyJC Registered Senior Member

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    2,936
    I must say, if I had been sober at the time I posted this it would have been worded differently. Americans being 'stupid enough' to buy into it wasn't exactly what I meant because I know that firstly, Americans are not stupid and secondly I was referring mostly to the bible belt states where people don't seem all that enlightened as a result of their strong religious views.

    I still stand by the thread title though, as a passing opinion on the subject. Christianity in particular seems to be making the headlines a lot recently given debates on the future of science and biotechnology, and their only argument to all of this is: "You can't play God". Which I find a bit funny because I don't see what say religion should have in the future of science and politics?

    Oh, and on evolution - Perhaps skeptics would be happy shitting out of their mouths because that's what would happen if the wonder of evolution didn't give us an anus.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2005
  15. Silas asimovbot Registered Senior Member

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    I have to say (as an atheist myself) that the opening post was needlessly inflammatory. Some of the greatest minds in humanity's existence (most of them, in fact) have been sincere religious believers. You can't judge all religious belief by the fundies and Creationists who post here. I think the reaction - across all faiths - to the recent death of the Pope shows that, however baseless in terms of actual evidence, religious belief is certainly important to a lot of people. I also echo SkinWalker's personal fascination for the Bible and its origins as well as its philosophical and moral wisdom.

    Phooey. And badly written phooey at that. There is no more validity to the statement "The Islamic man has 100% faith in God and the Christian man does not therefore the Islamic man is technicall more 'right'" than there is in the statement "The Christian man has 100% faith in God and the Islamic man does not therefore the Christian man is technicall more 'right'."
     
  16. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Is religion a bit stupid?

    Okay, at the core of (most) religious beliefs is the unprovable.
    So does believing in the unprovable make someone stupid? Quite possibly.
    But while the required beliefs can be deemed "stupid", the purpose of religion, and the benefits for the individual, mean that it isn't necessarily a stupid concept.

    In my experience religion is more than just the beliefs.
    Religion is also about community, about mutual support, and about having somewhere to turn when needed.
    Most religious people, in my experience, DO NOT EVEN QUESTION the beliefs they hold, almost as if it is unimportant to what else religion offers them.
    It gives them purpose, it gives them hope, it gives them things that they, as individuals, may not be able to get without religion.

    Okay, us atheists are able to do just as well, or maybe better, without the need for religion, or without the need to believe in (and worship) some unprovable "thing".

    But let's not start calling religion "stupid".
    Christianity, for example, is fairly unobtrusive in people's lives other than the need to believe in a few unprovable things and to live a "Christian life" - which generally equates to obeying the laws of society plus a few others (not coveting thy neighbours sexy nympho wife, for example :D)
    Some require the believer to go to church regularly.
    But other than that it's not a big deal.

    And in return that person gets so much peace of mind, hope, support etc.


    No, religion isn't all that stupid.
    We unreligious have merely have seen past the myths and realised we don't need it.
    The religious generally do.

    The stupidity of religion comes when it causes people to press their beliefs on other people.
     
  17. psycho-sth-african Registered Member

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    Well first i wuld like to say that not all monothesits are illogical brainwashed people that cant reason or do science. There are many christians who opened the way to modern thinking in philosophy, for example Kant, Augustine and Aquinas, who all of you have to say were brilliant thinkers.
    Then there are hundreds of christians who are scientists, one of them is currently the head of CSIRO in australia. Now i wont go on with the list of names but I will say that yes religious ppl can think logically and are not all brainwashed idiots, for now I will close with a qoute from Einstien
    Religion without science is blind, science without religion is lame
    Pls ask as many questions as you want, and I will try to answer them to the best of my ability
    Bye
    Jako
     
  18. Yazdajerd Behold... The Bringer of Light Registered Senior Member

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    Most common people fear to question what they have been brought on since childhood which might reveil weacknesses, which ironically they do not know if they exist or not.

    Other people take things for granted and do not bother themselves with this discussion, they tend to live on, not that they are stupid, but they don't want to think about it. These people view themselves as part of a community interacting, they deal with their lives and work while somebody's elses work is to deal with the religious issue (priests, imams, monks, etc).

    But intrestingly enough, the concept of beleiving in the unprooven can not be considered stupidity, like evolution scientifically can not be prooven and it is still debatable in the scientific community till this day, but some beleive it, creation is likewise another example of unprooven theories. Every body beleives in something, and nobody uses proofes all the time even so-called "non-beleivers".

    But, I'd like to mention that not all religions consider using thought as being heretical, as a muslim I can tell you, yes some sects do consider it heretical like Salafis and Sufis, but other like the mu'tazilis and shi'tes do not. I do beleive that similar distinctions exist in other religions........... but generalizing the fact on all religions as if they are all the same is a bit prejudiced and harsh.

    May we all be shown the Truth.
    Salam.
     
  19. Ozymandias Unregistered User Registered Senior Member

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    Not all Christians are lunatics. What <i>is</i> lunacy is backing up your statement about a vast group of people with an vague allusion to one person on an internet forum.

    So, why do you think this? You only have two reasons, as far as I can tell.

    You don't acknowledge that a large portion of Christians do not interpret the Bible literally. It is obvious that most stories in the OT are oral tradition and that the myths used for genesis are just creation stories.
    Yet, that's not really the core of the Bible. The NT's message -- its moral structure centered around love and humility -- what beef do you have with that?

    How does this indicate idiocy? Not all progress is beneficial.
     
  20. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Faith is the sacrifice in which God most delights, the sacrifice of the intellect.
     

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