Islam

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by shazashadeen, Sep 9, 2012.

  1. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    I've read the commenters and they have chosen several purposes in an ongoing free-for-all and of course the thread starter's only purpose was advertising the plea.

    Then let's go back to a question that arose. Why do people hate Islam? When many people hate something that is Islam related, it's often Muslims. Muslims who are violent extremists, Muslims who want to oppress people, etc. I suspect that some of the people whom actually hate Islam feel that way because it competes with some set of philosophies that they like. Other people like myself hate Islam simply because it is largely based on a book that issues many false claims about reality.
     
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  3. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Not at all not at all not at all!

    This was just a note of congratulations about your comments on this thread about this issue. We value those comments. We cherish them.

    And we will keep those comments on file for a minimum of six months; thanks so much for coming in!
     
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  5. Yasin Registered Member

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    Why does the thread starter's agenda matter in what the thread is about ? More precisely, what the members considered the thread to be about, which, I believe, is the reason a moderator hasn't closed the thread from the beginning. It's clear he wasn't serious about the discussion; you noted it yourself in the first page; but the members were, and that, to me, is enough. I feel like we may go into a loop about an irrelevant aspect of what you and I both seem to want; a reasonable discussion. If you wish there should be another thread for it, with a more sound presentation, I won't argue with you, but you don't. I honestly don't know what you want, regarding this particular point.

    Well, of course those are the only options. Some would hate Islam because of the actions of Muslims, something I have explained why I take to be foolish; I agree that people do it though, but how can anyone help it ?. Others ' feel that way because it competes with some set of philosophies that they like/believe in'. I also can't help it; there are those who might attempt to change those people's mindset or their philosophies towards the Islamic ones, but I lack much of the patience, diligence and knowledge required in that area. Save for the correction of simple misrepresented or misunderstood facts about Islam, I'm as useless as a napkin when you spill chilli sauce on your food.

    Much Obliged. File ? six months ? coming in ? Crap did I wander into Langley again ?!
    I hope you still remember, but could you clarify to me what you meant by this:
     
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  7. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Please, sir, don't make me call security.

    Sure. Sura 2, sura 9. Both written in the disappointing post-Medinan period. Like when Yoko fucked up the band, if John were a bit more monomaniacal.
     
  8. Yasin Registered Member

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    Oh, I though you were security .. ?

    Quite good. Thank you.
     
  9. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    But wouldn't most Muslims agree with that? Every sincere Muslim would presumably want to be a good Muslim. The controversy seems to arise over that Islam is in this context, what image of Islam needs to be "applied", how it's to be applied, and to what.

    The Salafists seem to me (I'm not an expert on this) to favor a very literalistic and traditional application of Islamic law and jurisprudence, applied to society as a whole, and to all the many diverse individuals within that society, by force if need be.

    My opinion is that all religions are inventions, human inventions at that.

    But leaving that issue aside, the equation of Salafism and Islam is also extremely doubtful in my opinion. Salafism in the Islamic context is something like Puritanism in the Christian Protestant context. It's not unlike the 15'th and 16'th century dreams of establishing a 'Biblical commonwealth', the dream of reforming all of society into a God-fearing community in keeping with what was believed to have been God's revealed will and the idealized faith of the earliest community. It's a manifestation of nostalgia for an older medieval sensibility, and a contemporary reaction against the world-wide march of modernity.

    Interpreted as law, analogous to the existing secular law of the 7'th century, but revealed this time (supposedly) by God himself, and hence binding on the community (and ideally upon the whole world) for all time. That kind of belief threatens to trap the Islamic community in a medieval sensibility forever.

    Meanwhile, millions of Muslims have been moving geographically to non-Islamic lands, and then struggling with the sometimes uncomfortable necessity of transforming themselves psychologically, coming to terms with being minority individuals in highly-diverse societies that aren't defined by Islamic law and aren't organized on Islamic principles.

    Islam is going to have to find a way to become a personal religion, a religion of individuals and not of entire societies. Some of the Sufi tendencies in Islam might represent resources existing within Islam itself that might be of help.

    I don't agree with your equation of Islam and Salafism.

    Why is this kind of religiosity increasingly popular among Muslims? Probably because many Muslims feel increasingly on the defensive against the globalizing changes sweeping the world, against modernity, which they sense is antithetical to their own traditions and is being imposed on them by foreigners from outside. They want to stand strong, shoulder-to-shoulder against the threat.

    They don't perceive their traditions as being backward or as a threat to progress. Quite the opposite, they see an ostentatious return to their own early medieval traditions as being their path back to power, to the invincible strength and divinely-willed inevitability with which Islam originally spread across half the world in the early Islamic centuries. The way to that reformation is to sweep away what they perceive as their own culture's decadence and impiety.
     
  10. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    *slowly lifts telephone, reaches for red button while maintaining eye contact*
     
  11. Yasin Registered Member

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    One would think someone who believed in a religion would apply it; one has been proved mistaken on numerous occasions.

    You aren't wrong in assuming that Salafists favour a specific application of Islamic laws, but you would be wrong in assuming that specific application is made up. One thing about Salafists is that they always recite their proofs from Koran and Sunnah when declaring something religiously wrong or right. So, every specific application you speak of can be referenced to a verse or Hadith. Salafism isn't new; it has been what Islam is for 14 centuries; their name, on the other hand, is. The reason you heard of Salafists in the first place is that they declared what every Muslim knew once he became one; that a core principle in Islam is to apply it, wholly and unquestionably. Like you said 'Every sincere Muslim would presumably want to be a good Muslim'. Unless you have some proof of an application of Salafists to a law of Islam differing from what it should be, we should be in agreement on this point.

    Could you give examples to what you mean ?. And please, do avoid punishment laws in Islam, for there is no use discussing them. Everywhere, a thief is punished, by force, in accordance with the law of the country; the form of that law is irrelevant to the particular point you are making, which is why I'm assuming you may have another meaning in mind for Islamic laws being forcibly applied.

    But why ?!. I gave, on more than one occasion that I was running out of ways to phrase it, a reason as to why I equate Islam and Salafism; that is, the Salafi doctrine is to apply Islam wholly, first and foremost, as stated in Koran and Sunnah; so Salafism must be Islam. You would think all that was needed to refute my claim, and to prove how pathetically poor my understanding of their doctrine is, was to bring forward anything Islam advises against that they do, or advises to do that they don't; to prove that they are merely an interpretation of Islam, a way of understanding it or a way of modifying it to accommodate the community we live in nowadays (I'm alluding to certain other groups). You gave me an imagery, without your reasons for why you disagree with my proposition in the first place.

    It seems to me that your argument is that Salafism interprets certain instructions as binding laws for all time, which , you believe, is where the problem lies. Yet you didn't provide what supports your claim that Salafism interprets instructions as laws. I honestly would like to know what law they advertise was in fact an instruction that Muslims could, according to your suggestion later on, ignore to be able to integrate with new societies better. If you have forgotten to state an example, by all means do.

    I hope you take my words with the best intentions. I, sometimes, sound cruder than I intend to. Smilies would help, but I feel they pollute the beauty of words.

    *Wonders why he is tensely pressing the red end call button when no one actually called him. Shifts nervously. What's with his eye ? Is he flirting with me ?!*
     
  12. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    * Hammers down on red alarm button. Sound of boots tromping down corridor. "That's him, right there!" Geoff cries, pointing the finger. "In the defense of our Agency, I did warn you, sir. Could you please sign this incarceration form? And be sure to check or not check the box regarding allergic reactions to rubber hoses and violent beatings. Should we still keep your comments on file? Please have a nice day!" Shouting, sound of violent beatings. Finis.*
     
  13. Yasin Registered Member

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    *Takes off a helmet-shaped futuristic headset in an angry motion, yelling incoherent curse words and referrals to incompetent allies and faulty unresponsive equipment, while the gigantic screen shows a fading scene of a man being dragged screaming in the background behind the ominous two words appearing on the screen:"Game Over".*
     
  14. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Pfft. Virtual reality is for sissies. Did you want your Two Minutes' Hate after tea today?
     
  15. Yasin Registered Member

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    What exactly are you calling Two minutes Of Hate ?!
    I feel a tinge of insult from your post.
     
  16. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Oh - sorry. I meant Two Minutes' Hate on you as an enemy of the state (see Orwell).

    I can see how the other intimation would be offensive, however.

    Seriously, I was only kidding.
     
  17. Yasin Registered Member

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    Oh, well, my apologies. It's strange, I did make the connection between 'Two Minutes of Hate' and Orwell's 1984, but I thought I was being likened to the hateful crowd not Goldstein. I wonder what a psychiatrist might think of that. In any case, yes, after tea; everything is better after tea.
     
  18. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    3,576
    Aww, that's nothing.

    You should try taking me on in a debate, sometime...

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  19. Yasin Registered Member

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    You just invited me to debate you and warned me against it at the same time. That's very amusing.
     
  20. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

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    Ok, seagypsy, so who is actually the final arbiter of which translation is correct? Is there anything to prove your "actually says" translation is any more accurate?
    Let's not quote an Imam or anything, either.... any translation from one language to another is open to interpretation, and that interpretation, especially when considering something of personal significance, is always subjective and therefore questionable.
     
  21. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

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    They may well both be extremist opinions, but one remains an opinion and the other does not.
    Let's not draw invalid comparisons, James. Fred Phelps and his ilk don't have a chance in hell (hah) of actually acting on their beliefs, because nearly everyone in our sphere knows he's a crackhead. With the possible exception of the Americans.

    By way of example... I may not particularly like you much, but I'm not likely to hunt you down and blow you up. Particularly not when I might die myself in the process (or even be incarcerated) - that would be rather silly.
    Now see if you can spot the difference between me saying something like "I despise everything you stand for, and I hope someday to have the opportunity to watch you shrivel up like a worm tossed onto a barbecue"... as opposed to actually throwing you on the barbecue. People have their ideals, and most of them say this and that about what they're going to do about them... but none really mean it. Until such time as they come to believe there will be some kind of reward or recognition for acting on those beliefs. Changes everything.

    You and I can never fully understand that, because we don't possess that kind of belief. Therefore we have a tendency to discount and underestimate those who do. Which is pretty much where the West is right now. We just don't get it.



    Those 3.7 billion, according to your figures, will be first up against the wall when the real revolution comes. And oh, what a sigh of relief we'll breathe.
     
  22. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    S.G. Yasin have both covered this- S.G. is focusing more on her continuing education (Homework) than the forum currently, but I asked her sine you addressed her.
    If yuo read up to this point, you should see that her, Yasin and someone else have already addressed and covered your question.
     
  23. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

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    I come on here once every few weeks, Neverfly, and I'm never completely sober. And then I tend to see if anyone's actually replied to anything I said. If so, I respond to them.
    I do admit to being somewhat jaded. To the point of not often reading through all the guano I would have to in order to find something I was going to mention has already been said.

    Point being... there is far too much crap on this site to bother reading through every reply to a thread, and even less so when I'm somewhat inebriated.
    For every reply on here, there will be another on another forum. Or a passage in a book. someone, somewhere, has said virtually everything you are going to say here, somwhere before.


    This medium has always been a disappointment, and is probably dying now, specifically because it is not the all-encompassing intellectual forum we once dreamed it might be. Every kid who ever read "Ender's Game" and dreamed of being Demosthenes and Locke, knows this.
     

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