Islam: Muhammad as the Last Prophet

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Tiassa, Aug 4, 2004.

  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Muhammad - The Last Prophet?
    The question in terms of modern reform

    Should one Google the terms "muhammad last prophet," the result is pretty clear. Some links and their information:

    At a site called The Way to Truth, a list of links pertaining to the Prophet Muhammad bears the title, "The Life of the Last Prophet: Prophet Muhammad."

    At this point the theme should be obvious: Is Muhammad the last Prophet?

    From Armstrong's Islam - A Short History:

    Rightly or wrongly, Westerners observing Islam get a fairly clear sense that "reform" of Islam is nearly impossible inasmuch as re-examining Quranic values in the modern context is perceived as challenging the authority of God's prophet. Those who acknowledge the humanity and human-family relations we share with our Muslim neighbors are often left scratching our heads: As much as we might wish people to live in peace, conflict seems inevitable unless there is a certain amount of give and take on both sides. The West, we know, seems inflexible in its drive to define everything terms of economy and what profits "us" the most. It is a disappointing assessment of Western perspicacity to say that folks on this side of the gap have a hard time understanding what is wrong with that.

    However, the assertion that Muhammad is the last Prophet may be equally problematic. Much as fundamentalist Christians hold Jesus' words in the Bible as fixed, static, and literal--as if Jesus had no inner vision--so do many Muslims seem to hold their interpretations of the Quran as definitive, static, and given by the Last Prophet himself.

    I admit I feel safe in raising Armstrong as a counterpoint; she is an honorary member of the Association of Muslim Social Sciences (in addition to being a former Catholic nun who teaches at a Rabbinical school) and recently was honored by the Islamic Center of Southern California as a "bridge builder". Christians, in the past, have mailed her excrement in protest of her books; and while no word has come up that she is similarly antagonized by Muslims, it would be foolish to imagine that she has satisfied all Muslims everywhere.

    Thus a simple comparison:

    • Muhammad is the last Prophet.
    • Says who? This assertion is not in the Quran.

    It's hard to explain the difference in a Christian comparison: There is a living faith of Christianity which seeks to find Christ's way in changing times, and there is a dead faith of Christianity which wishes for the simpler days when computers and medicines and information did not present alternatives to religious faith in terms of life guidance.

    On the campaign trail in the US, Senator Kerry expresses a unusual political position that is not unusual if it is placed in a more personal context. A Catholic who believes life begins at conception, Kerry will not legislate that part of his faith onto others. In rendering unto Caesar what is Caesars, Kerry acknowledges the importance of his identity as an American; rather than bending America to his faith, he must figure out how to reconcile his faith within the challenges of being American. The dead, literalist faith is often manifest in condemning issues of American politics: no gay marriage, no abortion, no sex ed, no free speech unless you are a Christian.

    Similarly, there are many Muslims who claim a living faith of adaptation and understanding while there are those who adhere to what seems a dead faith with an eye toward archaic principles whose enactment in the modern era can bring specifically ungodly results.

    In the end, how is Muhammad shown to be the last Prophet? And if that cannot be shown, what will be the effects on Islam as that point of faith is revealed to be in error? In the West, we can only hope for the best: the idea of an intimate, personal relationship with God and Jesus has become the hallmark of the new living faith, in which people no longer expect society to accommodate their every need of faith. That faith, that evolving relationship with God, is theirs and theirs alone. Neither I nor anyone else from the Pope to the lowliest abortion-clinic bomber can take that away.

    And as many atheists will remind, the living-faith solution is not without its problems.

    But can a Muslim's faith in God become stagnant, even necrotic, if it clings to a non-Quranic principle to such a degree as to forestall any evolution of faith or society?

    Take forced marriages, the latest exposé I've noticed on the cable news. How hard will it be to overturn cultural ideas that have been lent religious legitimacy that is enforced by the notion that God will not again send anyone to repent of His standards? It took centuries, and also lots and lots of money, to finally wipe arranged marriages from the Judeo-Christian West. In the West, in lieu of a dowry, it is still traditional for the bride's parents to fund the wedding. Though many folks who shuffled their daughters off to bad husbands may have felt Biblically justified, such a case is nearly impossible to make in the year 2004 in America.

    So what happens if we question the finality of Muhammad's prophethood? Does the whole of Islam collapse? Hardly. Rather, I can't see how it would. I would even go so far as to assert that a non-Quranic standard of faith born of necessity during wars of apostasy might hold back the evolution of Islamic faith and leave it for centuries past while the rest of the world moves forward to discover what is yet unwritten.
    ____________________

    • Muhammad.net. "Prophet Muhammad." See http://www.muhammad.net/
    • Al-Madeena.com. "Muhammad (PBUH) the Prophet of Islam and the Bible." See http://www.al-madeena.com/muhammad.htm
    • The Way to Truth.org. "The Life of the Last Prophet: Prophet Muhammad." See http://www.thewaytotruth.org/catindex7.html
    • Armstrong, Karen. "Islam: A Short History." New York: Modern Library, 2000.

    See Also -

    • Random House.com. "Authors - Karen Armstrong." See http://www.randomhouse.com/modernlibrary/karmstrong.html
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2004
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  3. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

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    Let us look at the following Noble Verse in the Noble Quran:

    "Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Apostle of God, and the Seal of the Prophets: and God has full knowledge of all things. (The Noble Quran, 33:40)"

    Comments from the foot notes of the translation of Sheikh (Minister) Abdullah Yusuf Ali; may Allah Almighty rest his soul and make Heaven his final destiny: "When a document is sealed, it is complete, and there can be no further addition. The Holy Prophet Muhammad closed the long line of Messengers. Allah's teaching is and will always be continuous, but there has been and will be no Prophet after Muhammad. The later ages will want thinkers and reformers, not Prophets. This is not an arbitrary matter. It is a decree full of knowledge and wisdom, 'for Allah has full knowledge of all things.'"

    In the above Noble Verse we see Allah Almighty clearly Saying that Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is the last Prophet (Messenger) sent by Allah Almighty to Mankind. In Arabic, the words "Prophet (Nabi)", and "Messenger (Rasul)" could and would mean the same thing. This means that Allah Almighty in the above Noble Verse said that Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is the last Messenger and Prophet of GOD Almighty. The following Saying from our beloved Prophet peace be upon him will further prove it for us:

    "In My Ummah (Islamic Nation), there shall be born Thirty Grand Liars (Dajjals), each of whom will claim to be a prophet, But I am the Last Prophet; there is No Prophet after Me. (Abu Dawood Vol 2 p. 228; Tirmidhi Vol 2 p.45)" [1]

    "Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, 'The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number.' The people asked, 'O Allah's Apostle! What do you order us (to do)?' He said, 'Obey the one who will be given the pledge of allegiance first. Fulfil their (i.e. the Caliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put under their guardianship.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Virtues and Merits of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and his Companions, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 661)"

    "Narrated Sad: Allah's Apostle set out for Tabuk. appointing 'Ali as his deputy (in Medina). 'Ali said, 'Do you want to leave me with the children and women?' The Prophet said, 'Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Aaron to Moses? But there will be no prophet after me.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 59, Military Expeditions led by the Prophet (peace be upon him) (Al-Maghaazi), Volume 5, Number 700)"

    "Narrated Ubaida: Ali said (to the people of 'Iraq), "Judge as you used to judge, for I hate differences (and I do my best ) till the people unite as one group, or I die as my companions have died." And narrated Sad that the Prophet said to 'Ali, 'Will you not be pleased from this that you are to me like Aaron was to Moses?' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 57, Companions of the Prophet, Volume 5, Number 56)"

    "Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) left 'Ali b. Abi Talib behind him (as he proceeded) to the expedition of Tabuk, whereupon he ('Ali) said: Allah's Messenger, are you leaving me behind amongst women 4nd children? Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there would be no prophet after me. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, Book 31, The Book Pertaining to the Merits of the Companions (Allah Be Pleased With Them) of the Holy Prophet (May Peace Be Upon Him) (Kitab Al-Fada'il Al-Sahabah), Number 5914)"

    "Sa'd reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying to 'Ali: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses? (Translation of Sahih Muslim, Book 31, The Book Pertaining to the Merits of the Companions (Allah Be Pleased With Them) of the Holy Prophet (May Peace Be Upon Him) (Kitab Al-Fada'il Al-Sahabah), Number 5916)"

    "Narrated AbuHurayrah: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace_be_upon_him). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist (Dajjal) and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 37, Battles (Kitab Al-Malahim), Number 4310)"

    In the above Sayings (Hadiths) of our beloved Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, we see several things:

    1- The People of Israel used to be ruled and guided by Prophets from Allah Almighty, and Muhammad peace be upon him is the last Prophet and Messenger. No Messenger of Allah will come after him. Only Caliphs (Disciples) will come after him, and the Muslims must follow them.

    2- He compared himself and his cousin and forth Disciple Ali bin-Abi Talib with Moses and his brother Aaron peace be upon all of them.

    3- He used the word "prophet" for himself and as an expression for Moses peace be upon him. Moses and Muhammad peace be upon them are both Prophets and Messengers from Allah Almighty. Moses peace be upon him did not make predictions before. He only brought the Torah (the Law) to the People of Israel. Jesus and Muhammad peace be upon them on the other hand made predictions (prophecies) that were inspired by Allah Almighty. Yet, Moses and the other Messengers of Allah Almighty were referred to as "Prophets". That's because in Arabic as I mentioned above, the words "Messenger (Rasul)" and "Prophet (Nabi)" would and could mean the same thing.

    4- Ali may Allah Almighty be pleased with him and honor his face (for refusing to bow to idols) is not sacred in Islam, because Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him told him that he is like Aaron to Moses to him, meaning they are like brothers, but Muhammad also told him that no more Messengers from Allah Almighty will come after him. This makes Ali not sacred in Islam, but very well respected.

    5- Prophet Jesus came before Prophet Muhammad and will come after him peace be upon both of them. Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him made it clear that no new Prophet or Messenger will come after him. Only Jesus peace be upon him will. He will come and destroy the Antichrist, the Dajjal.
     
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  5. surenderer Registered Senior Member

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    Tiassa,
    Sup... I must say I always have liked your posts

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    anyways that article is confusing to me saying that its not stated in the Koran because:

    [33.40] Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.


    and its also written in Arabic more times in the Koran

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    Anyway what i find different between Islam/Muslims and other religions is that other religions seem to want to fit their religion to meet their own desires(pork and christians comes immediatly to mind) while muslims change themselves and RESIST desires to knowing that rewards are from the next life not neccarily from this one

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    .....peace
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2004
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  7. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Notes Around:

    Unfortunately the site I used to start my response to your excellent posts might well have a whiff of controversy about it that I'm not prepared to undertake; it seems folks don't like Rashad Khalifa, so I need to match his commentary with something subject to less controversy--or at least defuse the controversy to my own satisfaction--before choosing to stand on it. On the one hand, I'm not going to give over to paranoia surrounding a Muslim of rising fame; to the other, I'm not about to hand you discussion based on a translation of the Quran accused of omitting passages.

    786: Researching the ahadith will be slow for me; I'm even less familiar with those bodies of writing than I am with the Quran.

    Surenderer: That confusion puzzles me, too, in light of the verse you have cited. (And considering that is where I ran into Khalifa, were I not unsure about his translation--and, by proxy, his commentary, which would otherwise be of value inasmuch as it would help me advance to the next question--I would proceed.) In the meantime, and it is a question, I suppose, for others than us, I have to figure out why nobody "important" (e.g. various bodies that respect her) has called out Armstrong on this point yet.

    Thus I shall plead for time, and also your thoughts on Dr. Rashad Khalifa in consideration of his qualifications to be analyzing the Qur'an. While I am inclined to distrust anyone claiming such an elevation of their individual self, I am aware that the platforms from which charlatans dive are often real platforms exploited poorly. At any rate ... the validity of the response that would have gone here lies in the gutter at the moment, so I need to pick up the pieces and figure out where to start anew.
     
  8. Knife Familyman G Registered Senior Member

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    153
    i was once told that only those who are educated in the ways of religion should interpret the quran. but that in itself does not make sense, who is to say they are educated enough.

    all muslims are instructed to think/read/anayze/rationalize/etc. it is stated very clearly in the quran.

    when i was a little older, someone else made a very interesting point; anyone can interpret the quran, but must be aware that if they preach that interpretation, they will be held accountable for the actions of all who follow that particular interpretation. i was told to think of this when listening to someone interpret the quran. that was it! it kinda left me with a ...uuuuhhhh, okaaay....kinda feeling.

    no muslim, in their right mind if they truly believed, would dare to even attempt to preach an interpretation based on the possible consequences should he be wrong. where does that put everyone else? so i went back to that person to ask.

    he explained that if there is no dispute on an issue, then it is pretty much ok. if there is a dispute one must look inside oneself and look at it from a humble, unselfish, "do unto others..." point of view and it will be clear.

    his point was to be wary of interpretations, lest there be hidden agendas.....as we see today.

    read with an open mind and it shall be clear. if not ask, then read again.
     
  9. Knife Familyman G Registered Senior Member

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    153
    i would like to make a point here. it is true that islam today is behind the rest of the world. but islam is not the cause of it, it is the muslims.

    the islamic world moved and evolved very quickly for over 1000 years, in arts and sciences and many other aspects, when the rest of the world was pretty much stagnant. today, many muslims have completely lost the intent of what they believe in. other than believing in one god, they dont really act like muslims. and this has led to their downfall.

    even the quran states that if muslims do not uphold the true essence of islam then god would replace their greatness with sorrow and give others greatness.
     
  10. everneo Re-searcher Registered Senior Member

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    I don't think muslims will ever entertain the idea that Muhammad is not the final prophet. Other than the authenticated hadiths ( some of them 786 posted regarding Muhammad comparing himself & Ali as Moses & Aaron with an exception that there would not be any prophet after Muhammad ) Quran implies 2 thing for the muslims.

    1. Why another prophet was needed after Isa (Jesus) : Quran says, as i remember, the bible was corrupt and Muhammad was to mend it.

    2. Muslims strongly believe Quran remains un-corrupt till date.

    Combining these 2 will give muslims no reason for the need of another prophet after Muhammad. For them Quran is sufficient in light of sunna of the Prophet. But current day is different from Muhammad's day. The guidance is lacking in the absence of relevant hadiths. There are diffent views. Different interpretations for many current issues. Do we need another prophet infact ? But the point raised by surrenderer is interesting, that is to say muslims have to remember that Islam is not just about this world alone.

    Till muslims believe that (1) Quran is un-corrupt and protected by Allah and (2) Muslims have to follow Islam not the other way around , they would expect Allah himself to make it clear that there is another prophet is being sent with different mission other than Muhammad's , if they have to believe in another prophet. The Ball is on Allah's court.

    In the meantime, muslims might use reason & heart without going off too much from basics of Islam, Allah is most Merciful.
     
  11. everneo Re-searcher Registered Senior Member

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    Knife :

    Fine views.
     
  12. surenderer Registered Senior Member

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    879


    'as-salâmu calaykum Knife,
    Thats interesting but where did you read that"others" would be given greatness? What others? why would they be given greatness if they practice "Shirk"? thats like Allah(saws) saying he would change his message to fit the people not the other way around. I do agree however that muslims dont practice the way the we were instructed to practice which is the problem in our society today but Allah(saws) says

    [61.8] They desire to put out the light of Allah with their mouths but Allah will perfect His light, though the unbelievers may be averse


    Their intention is to extinguish Allah’s Light with their mouths:
    But Allah will complete (the revelation of) His light,
    Even though the Unbelievers may detest (it.)

    surah 61:8 Al Saff (The Battle Array)
    (Abdullah Yusuf Ali, The Holy Qur'an, 1989.)


    so it seems that Allah(saws) says that even though they(disbelievers) destest it his word will still spread....peace
     
  13. Knife Familyman G Registered Senior Member

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    153
    Tawbah 39 or 9:39. but i will get to that in a minute.

    why not. name one muslim government today that can be considered great. isnt it a common aurgument by many muslims that the jewish people control the worlds wealth/media? name one islamic country today that is even close to becoming a super power. name one muslim country today that produces technology. name one muslim country today that send aid to non-muslim countries to "lead" by, and set a good, example. name one muslim country that does not oppress its' people or dictate their lives (you are more likely to get better justice in a "shirk" court than you are in a muslim country's court). muslims dont even treat other muslims with compassion, let alone non-muslims. god gives to the believers and the non-believers alike. this is the test.

    yes, god is perfect. but muslims are not, especially today. muslims seem to ignore that fact.

    no. the message does not change and hasnt changed since noah. but the greatness of people does. if someone were to ask me "why has god foresaken muslims today?" my answer is simple, just look around.

    now back to the verses. please understand this is my outlook. i am not preaching, or asking you to believe or read as i do. but i came to this conclusion based on my own interpretation and i am at peace with myself with it. islam = peace (in my opinion), therefore, everything should lead to peace. translation doesnt help me here, but if you read the arabic texts, i hope you will at least understand my point of view even if we differ on opinions.

    the text:

    "38. O you who believe! What is the matter with you, that when you are asked to march forth in the Cause of Allâh (i.e. Jihâd) you cling heavily to the earth? Are you pleased with the life of this world rather than the Hereafter? But little is the enjoyment of the life of this world as compared to the Hereafter."

    here of course "marching forth in the cause Alaah" is reffering to the root meaning of jihad (not the western interpretation of it); spreading justice, righting wrongs, struggling against oppresion of the self and others, struggling to earn a living in a decent manner, etc (i am sure you understand me here as this has been discussed elsewhere). god here is questioning muslims, no one else ("oh you who believe!"). god is questioning the strength of their faith. it is a rhetorical question. since many do not march forth in the true cause of god, but in the cause of worldly enjoyment, i.e hidden agendas. god is stating the difference of life in this world as oppsed to the next. basically, god is making clear that there are those who do not follow the true essence, but still use god as the justification.

    39. If you march not forth, He will punish you with a painful torment and will replace you by another people; and you cannot harm Him at all, and Allâh is Able to do all things.

    this verse is continuing from the previous, so it is still directed to muslims. since we both are aware of the promises by god of the rewards in this world and the next for true believers, here is the result for those who abuse the faith. the words "punish" and "painful torment" could easily describe muslims today if we look at it from a divine perspective. "will replace you by another people" is very clear. god will replace the people he bestows glory upon. when the muslims did things right they were great. why should you be surprised that when they do things wrong greatness is taken away and given to someone else -- god is just, so it makes sense. i view this as the punishment for abusing/twisting/taking out of context by MUSLIMS. no one else. muslims need to stop blaming others. remember, it is in the quran also that god will only help those who help themselves.

    look at it from another perspective. the muslim era had it good. they screwed it up and lost it all. what did the jewish people do. they invested money, educated themselves, became doctors, lawyers, businesspeople, engineers. they help themselves. they deserve the power they have today, if you see the world like that. on the other hand, look at the palestinians, instead of counting their losses and rebuilding what little they have left, they send children...CHILDREN!.....to do the dirty work. they could have made peace, kept what little land they could get and slowly rebuild their societies and lobby internationally for justice. but now they bomb, kill, mame and get no respect....not from alot of muslims (many sympathize but do not support) and definately not from the west. the palestinians are hopelessly arguing for land and other wordly things.....this is why they are in the situation they are in now. and their billionaire leader is an embarrasment to muslims/arabs/humans.

    i am sorry if i sound harsh, but this is the reality of the case today. we should be embarassed of ourselves. and until we see this in ourselves we will get nowhere.

    tired of typing.....later....peace.
     
  14. surenderer Registered Senior Member

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    879

    And THATS the key Knife the goverments(or more specifically its leaders) will be punished(and they are being punished) not the true God-fearing people



    I agree that Muslims have/had lost their path in a matter of speaking(dont forget though that the last Nobel Prize winner is a Muslim woman) but how did the Jews get what they got? Not all of it was illegal and immoral but plenty of it was. Do you think that is right? Ends justify the means? Alotta muslims say they can "have it" in this life cause the will have to answer to Allah in the next one for their crimes




    What kind of untrue Fox News stereotyping statement is this? Not all Palestineans send their children off to be suicide bombers and you know that :bugeye: Israel kills Palestinians DAILY without any real outcry from the "West" As for the people who do commit suicide bombings they arent behaving "Islamic" as we both know(Did you here that the last Bus bombing in Israel was thought to be done by the Israeli's?). It's interesting that in one statement you judge Jews as being successful for their achieving "worldly things"(even though its on the blood of alotta innocent people.....tell me again who benefited most from the US attacking Iraq?) yet you admonish the Palestinians for trying to achieve land(which was/is theirs) and "worldy things" I agree that Muslims should try to help them more (especially Jordan and Eygypt) but are you saying that the slaves(palestinians) should try to fight the slavemasters(Israeli's)? Answer me this Knife as a Muslim.....Is it more important to "sell out" in this life to achieve what we want or to be humble as Allah wants us to be for greater rewards in the next one?....salaam
     
  15. Leo Volont Registered Senior Member

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    Is it possible to commit a Worst Sin against God then to Teach a Religion which will forever forbid anybody ever to listen to God again.

    To teach that One's Self is the Last and Best Prophet is to Insult and Deny all Future Prophets.

    To claim to be the Last Prophet is Satan's Strategy for cutting off All Communication between Heaven and Earth. Observing the Behavior of the World's Islamic Populations, it is apparent that Satan was quite successful in cutting off God from these people who have managed to console themeselves in hatred, narrowmindedness, and violence.

    But don't get me wrong... Muslims aren't all bad... they may be Proud of every Vice and Crime, but atleast they draw the line on eating pork -- THAT they take seriously!
     
  16. darktr00per Registered Senior Member

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    Sounds just as bad as Christendom.(live this way or die)
     
  17. darktr00per Registered Senior Member

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    People need to take up a more passive religion such as Buddhism(Confucianism, Taoism). They dont claim divinity as a mortal or to kill other "non believers". I say this becuase of the crusades, inquisition and ismalic invasions. Why do religions of the west claim murder is wrong--but yet it is divine if murder is inflicted upon heretics? Religions such as these are nothing more than primitave forms of opression.
     
  18. Leo Volont Registered Senior Member

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    1,509
    Well, just look at the World today. Is it really good that we have so many Polarized Societies? Do not all these differences eventually lead to civil conflict, riots and worse?

    Protecting the homogenity of Society may be its greatest survival mechanism. Remember, that the Catholic World was able to survive only until it failed to Kill Off Dissent.

    Especially where all the World Leaders are preaching Democracy, it becomes almost imperitive that One Group protect its source of Political Power by limiting the vote of other groups. It is no accident that the 20th Century -- the Century of Democracy was the Bloodiest Century in the History of the World.

    If all differences of belief were trivial, it would not matter. But people's beliefs effect their ideas on Property, Freedom, Justice, Responsibility -- the General Quality of Life for every Human Being on Earth depends upon which Beliefs eventually come to influence Economic, Political, Military and Police Powers which dictate most everything that transpires.

    Who would deny that it would have been nice if every Nazi died in 1927, or every Communist in 1904? Sometimes it is possible to nip a bad thing in the bud.

    The Church would use both corrective propaganda to bring back The Flock that may have strayed, while blasting the Heretical Leaders. It was not so much Religious as Political. In a divided World, Political Jurisdictions need to guard their Unity, simply for practical reasons. Minorities have a nasty historical habit of forming Alliances with Invading Armies -- they open roads and ports to Enemy Transports that would have otherwise been easily defended. The best defense against treacherous minorities is to suppress their very existence. Indeed, we should go back to that -- everyone speaking one Language -- Latin -- and everyone thinking that there is only one World and One Society and One Civilization. Catholic and Marian.
     
  19. darktr00per Registered Senior Member

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    Well first of all, western civilizations were as bad as the nazis. Remember the Inquistions! as well as the crusades. It is a primitave form of social preservation yes, but now days people have become more educated than the simple peasants back in the day. Instead of following a leader they follow their wallets and bank stubs. So i guess they still are sheep, but none the less we do not need opressive figures and institutions such as Catholic churches.
     
  20. darktr00per Registered Senior Member

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    But yes, for the most part you are right, there will always be a fight for a certian "social group" to become the majority or standard of human civilizations.
     
  21. darktr00per Registered Senior Member

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    "If all differences of belief were trivial, it would not matter."

    -Social groups will always find a way to polarize or delcare abnormality of one another.
     
  22. Leo Volont Registered Senior Member

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    Every Civilization arises on the Unifying Influence of a Religious Inspiration. It is the Duty of that Religion to maintain Social Unity and Integrity. That Civilization will be Successful in proportion as its Religious Vision is True (conducive to Civilization -- encouraging Cooperation, sharing, altruism, etc), and it can protect itself from barbaric assault.

    You are right in that no Civilization has thus far been able to protect itself from eventual dissent. But some Civilization have had some long and successful Runs. 200 Years of Civilized Peace and Happiness are better than nothing.
     
  23. Preacher_X Registered Senior Member

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    Tiassa, thanks for this thread, as with the rest of your posts they are very interesting.

    i cant really think of any Quotes on the top of my mind but the Quran does say that Muhammed (saw) is the last Prophet and does not make any suggestions that any new Prophets will come (only false ones will come).

    Also the Quran talks about doomsday and the Dajaal etc. and not about future Prophets.

    Also look at the previous scriptures and Prophets (a.s.) the Bible and Torah are not a way of life and the Prophets sayings and collections are not collected but the Quran is an entire way of life and includes Politics indicating that it is the last revelation. also Muhammed (saw) is the seal of the Prophets his ENTIRE way of life is recorded. no man in history is described so much. the way he ate, drank, walked, slept, prayed, talked, EVRYTHING is all recorded, his exact quotes are recorded hundreds of thousands of his speeches are recorded, Muslims are meant to imitate him. Allah did not intend Abraham (as), Jesus (as) or Moses (as) etc. to be the last Prophets so there actions after the prophesy date expired were lost and they were never really gathered in great detail anyway. .

    also, Muhammed (saw) is promised the greatest heaven and also as the greatest intercessor on the Day Of Judgement so if there was a new Prophet then why would an older Prophet be given these privileges

    another thing is that I can name about 150 Prophecies that Muhammed (saw) made that have come true and none of them are about a future Prophet. The interesting thing is that these Prophecies are not random they are very specific and also these prophecies did not just randomly happen at different times in history, Muhammed (saw) said they would all happen rapidly just before the event happens like pearls falling from a necklace and these prophecies all happened in quick succession of one another starting from 1900’s. most of those 150 signs are all up now and there are very few left (and using your head they look like they are going to come true shortly anyway) At the end of these signs (and that is fast approaching) what happens is the FALSE Prophet emerges then after that various events happen and then the Day of Judgement but once again no mention of any new Prophets, just false ones.

    What has happened now is that we are at a stage where the coming of that False Prophet is near and the hundreds of signs have come true, so it seems what the Quran has said has come true so far but it never makes any mention of a true Prophet every coming again and even denies it will ever happen.

    But going with this thread, the Dajaal will be the Messiah to the Jews and they will believe him so for them this impostor who will really lead them to doom will be there Prophet and many Muslims will be fooled by the Dajaal as will many Christians and atheists.

    So again, thanks for the thread and I hope I settled some of you discussion points. Ill be interested to see your reply for this post
     

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