Is very finite number of ways that matter can be arranged?

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by Tailspin, Jul 3, 2014.

  1. Tailspin Registered Member

    Messages:
    78
    I know it's atypical, possibly unheard of but that makes no difference to me.

    Exactly how is this trivial? Because this theory is true and I should just accept it? Or it is just a theory and has a genuine probability of being dis-proven anyway?

    People keep saying that It's true but it cannot effect me. But it does effect me, because it changed what creativity is to me in the here and now.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. RJBeery Natural Philosopher Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,136
    Michaelangelo once said "Every block of stone has a statue inside it and it is the task of the sculptor to discover it". And it's true: the molecules of the finished product already existed in the stone before the artist began his work but that doesn't diminish the beauty of the end product.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Tailspin Registered Member

    Messages:
    78
    if you can say that then you just don't get me at all.

    Just tell me... How probable it is that this theory is true?
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. RJBeery Natural Philosopher Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,136
    It either is or it isn't, with no way to nail down the uncertainties. Some would put that at 50%

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Anyway this conversation isn't going anywhere. I've given you what I believe the answer to be, then what I thought you wanted to hear, then some health advice. The best I could say now is good luck!!
     
  8. nimbus Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    129
    what is art? half a shark.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  9. danshawen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,942
    Since space is an emergent property from time and energy, and because the volume of space is dependent on the state of motion of the observer, space is evidently not finite. Even if you accept that there exists finite space somewhere, there are evidently are an infinite number of "finite" spaces far enough removed from our locality in terms of light travel time that none of us will ever see them.

    I once met a poster in another science forum (usenet) that had a similar "life and death" drama play itself out online regarding whether omniscience implied omnipotence, or some such. Like this one, no one could get a handle on why this particular metaphysical issue had some hidden meaning for this individual.

    Listen to Michau Kaku's video about "the universe is a free lunch", and if this does not make you feel better, then seek assistance within your social network to try and ascertain why this particular issue is causing you to have an OCD response in this way. There is no shame. The life you save may be your own.

    Take care and chill.
     
  10. Tailspin Registered Member

    Messages:
    78
    I had a look at Michau Kaku's video and I don't see what it has to do with this situation.

    I know what's causing me to react this way, it's because this theory attacks something that I greatly value. And I don't understand why none of you understand. And I do not have OCD, yes I may be obsessed but that does not effect the validity of my feelings.

    This thoery is simply not acceptable to me. I was hoping that, by starting this thread and aking scientific experts like you, someone would say ethir:

    "This theory is hogwash and here's how we know..."

    Or

    "This theory has some merit logicaly but they haven't taken this into consideration..."

    Instead all I get are people saying this is absoulty true and say I'm being silly for being concerned about it.
    I will never like this theory so if you want to help me, give me somthing I can use to believe this theory is false, I'm counting on you all.
     
  11. nimbus Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    129
    I can only echo what's already been said.
    You seem to have such a positive confidence that today’s comprehension of nature is not going to change much over the coming millennia.
    In otherwords, don't get stuck in a rut because someone's told you something, that something could change one day.
    By something, I mean... our present scientific laws, principles and models are not eternal. But, they are the only logical way we have so far, of understanding nature.
     
  12. Tailspin Registered Member

    Messages:
    78
    Thank you for your kind reply. As a matter of fact, I'm not confident at all that current scientific beliefs will last forever. I've often thought that theories about the universe seem to come and go like fashion trends. As a matter of fact I very recently wrote a little something entitled: What I'd like to believe.

    “This theory does make logical sense but logic is not proof. And the logic in question is based on what we currently know and observe through our current technology.
    There have been countless examples in the past where erroneous beliefs were widely accepted, sometimes for centuries, until they were blown out of the water by some new discovery or development.

    Yes there are plenty of people who vehemently believe in this and won't even consider an alternative. But that does not necessarily make it true.
    No theory is carved in stone and all are open to modification in the future.
    This situation in particular is based on the science of quantum mechanics which is itself highly theoretical and open to conjecture. Scientific theories are changed, modified and thrown out all the time particularly ones regarding the universe and the nature of reality.

    It is entirely possible if not probable that someday, some new discovery or new technology will throw out this theory.
    New information is constantly modifying and expanding upon what we know to be true, sometimes radically. And given that we had admittedly know very little about the universe and reality, it may be considered foolish to say that any theory we have now is 100% true.

    Even now there are things like the uncertainty principle and the recently discovered “Cheshire cat effect” that greatly affect our understanding of the matter and quantum mechanics. And there is little doubt that there are more variables at work. And then there are the variables brought up by human evolution. We can only make an educated guess at what abilities and senses human beings will have in the future.

    Quite simply, no one has been able to offer actual evidence that this theory is true. All they have been able to offer is the logic which may well be flawed. Scientific theories come and go almost like fashion changes, why should this one be any different? Those who believe in this theory don't even tackle the issue of potentially unknown variables.
    Since quantum mechanics is still in its infancy it is actually very possible that this theory will one day sound ridiculous.
    True I cannot think of a way to disprove it but I shall leave that up to the future generations.”


    And I showed this to my therapist and he said it was a very compelling and logical argument against the theory. Believe me when I say there is nothing I want more in the world than to let go of this and move on. But every time I try it's as if I hear a voice in my head shouting “Of course this theory is true you ridiculous little twit! There's simply no way out of it!”

    It's hard to fight it when so many people say it's true. About 90% of the people on this thread have said that. I posted this same question on Yahoo Answers and 7 out of 7 people vehemently supported this theory. I don't know if I can fight such consensus.
    And then there is the theory itself, it makes perfect logical sense and I can't think of the way around it.
     
  13. river Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,182
    Look Tailspin , just investigate and think deeply upon what your proposing

    But first think in terms of your thinking and prove it

    If you prove me wrong , that the arrangement of matter is infinite , rather than finite

    Then I'm with yeah

    river
     
  14. Tailspin Registered Member

    Messages:
    78
    I don't understand what you want me to do.
     
  15. Tailspin Registered Member

    Messages:
    78
    Basically what I said was every belief and theory throughout history has been either modified or thrown out, why should this one be any different?
     
  16. nimbus Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    129
    I'm no expert.
    Science is a work in progress and not a belief or 'What I'd like to believe' thing.
    It's an -as we currently understand thing- some things may seem so logical and rational now, but who knows what may come along.
    The scientific method is a tool not a belief. I really can't talk for science or math and as you have already said, our understandings are only based on what we know now and use those to predict so as to advance or alter models and whatnot.
     
  17. Tailspin Registered Member

    Messages:
    78
    That's what I've been saying. Thank you nimbus, out of all the people I've asked, you and one other are the only ones who would even consider that this theory might be false.
    And that's part if the problem, so many rigidly believe in it that I can hardly fight such an overwhelming consensus.

    I know that long post of mine has merit but still I'd like something more than a weak hope.
     
  18. nimbus Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    129
    I'm not saying it's false.
    I hesitate to say this because of your stuck in a rut thing.
    The finite answer may be correct for the current way we model Nature. Your 'get-out' clause is who knows what future new understanding/discovery will result in the model being seen as not fully representing new findings about the universe.
     
  19. Tailspin Registered Member

    Messages:
    78
    Why is it that so very few people on this site will even consider the falsehood of this theory?
     
  20. danshawen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,942
    The human mind, for all its complexity, is necessarily dozens of orders of magnitudes less complex than the universe it contemplates. This virtually assures that if we are bored, it's our own fault.
     

Share This Page